Mr. Hart

[logan82]

How much do you honestly think will change with a new GM? I feel a lot of what Melvin does is owner driven. Not necessarily every move but the general philosophy behind how things are done.

[torts]

anyone complaining about owner/GM must have forgotten how these two literally changed the course of this franchise in the last 7 years.

[Oldcity]

How much do you honestly think will change with a new GM? I feel a lot of what Melvin does is owner driven. Not necessarily every move but the general philosophy behind how things are done.

Definitely agree.

[TooLiveBrew]

anyone complaining about owner/GM must have forgotten how these two literally changed the course of this franchise in the last 7 years.

Yep, and TC07's entire point is that they mortgaged the future for two moderately sucessful postseason runs. Anyone who glosses over that fact doesn't get the distinction TC07 is drawing.

 

The curent course of this franchise is headlong towards the ground, without a deep farm system safety net.

[Dollarbill13]

Yep, and TC07's entire point is that they mortgaged the future for two moderately sucessful postseason runs. Anyone who glosses over that fact doesn't get the distinction TC07 is drawing.

 

The curent course of this franchise is headlong towards the ground, without a deep farm system safety net.

 

The alternative view is that without mortgaging the future, we would have gone through a major wave of prospects (Fielder, Weeks, Braun, Hart, etc.) without winning anything. Take away a few of our prospect trades and we could be looking at this lineup & rotation:

 

Aoki

Escobar

Braun

Hart

Weeks

Lucroy

Lawrie

Cain/Brantley

 

Gallardo

Fiers

Odorizzi

Estrada

Thornburg

 

We'd probably also have at least one starter that we would have picked up in a Fielder trade. We'd have a young, cost controlled team, but I don't think that team is playoff caliber. The biggest problem with the Brewers organization has been the lack of quality drafts/development of high draft picks and not the fact that we traded some prospects for some very good major leaguers.

[logan82]

anyone complaining about owner/GM must have forgotten how these two literally changed the course of this franchise in the last 7 years.

For the better or worse though?

 

I agree with trading for CC and Greinke. I think you have to go for it if you are close. Last year I think we were a really good team. We are not as good as we were last year and I think we should have been in sell mode since the middle of May.

 

I also agree that the current problem lies with not drafting well over the last few years almost as much as trading away a lot of talent. Melvin/Mark A. have been good for the franchise but they have not done much to build it up for long term success. I think they have an opportunity to do that this year. I will be very disappointed if they try to go for it like the Astros did for years and years.

[sheetskout]

I also agree that the current problem lies with not drafting well over the last few years almost as much as trading away a lot of talent. Melvin/Mark A. have been good for the franchise but they have not done much to build it up for long term success. I think they have an opportunity to do that this year. I will be very disappointed if they try to go for it like the Astros did for years and years.

 

Pretty sure that locking Braun, Gallardo, Lucroy (and Weeks) to longer deals confirms that Melvin/Mark had our long-term outlook in mind. At least to me it does.

[logan82]

That is only half of what they need to do to build a strong franchise though. We can't spend a ton of money year after year. The Gallardo and Lucroy deals in particular are not all that great. They didn't really get those guys for much longer than they already had them. You need more than a handful of guys to build a team. Other than the Braun deal, none of those will help much a few years from now.

[TooLiveBrew]

Yep, and TC07's entire point is that they mortgaged the future for two moderately sucessful postseason runs. Anyone who glosses over that fact doesn't get the distinction TC07 is drawing.

 

The curent course of this franchise is headlong towards the ground, without a deep farm system safety net.

 

The alternative view is that without mortgaging the future, we would have gone through a major wave of prospects (Fielder, Weeks, Braun, Hart, etc.) without winning anything

Well I realize my response is something that's been discussed over and over (I considered not replying as I did for that very reason... guess I should've just let the majority opinion get repeated again), but there were not just the two options of trading for rental and/or expensive vets, or not trading at all. And I'm guessing most who read and post here also already know the responses to that will be that trades for young cost-controlled players are very rare. So not really anything new there to discuss, but I am surprised how many fans just accept the message that Melvin and Mark A. have completely revitalized the org. -- to me, objectively, I just don't see it. Yes, the postseasons have been fun, but at this point I would rather have a strong organization.

 

And I agree that the biggest problem has been a lack of success not only in drafting but also development. But that problem ultimately falls at the feet of Melvin and Attanasio, since they're the two main shot-callers when it comes to the product on the field.

 

So, in a pathetic attempt to bring myself back on topic here, I think moving Hart and pricier players like him before you're overpaying for a player's decline is essential for the Brewers to remain competitive.

[TooLiveBrew]

Also, I don't think Dollarbill's hypothetical roster is really that far away from being a playoff contender for a 4-6 year window, and it's probably better than the situation the Crew will be in come 2013.

[logan82]

I am pretty happy with the Grinke trade but it is closer to 50/50 than 100% good. The lineup Dollarbill posted isn't all that bad and if you look back we could have traded Fielder for something as well. That roster depends a lot on how well Odorizzi would perform. Put that roster with one more decent pitcher and it is really strong.

 

I wouldn't mind extending Hart for around $12m a year but I don't think we will be competitive enough in the next few years to make it worth keeping and extending him and I think that would be a huge underpay.

 

At this point they need to start selling and building up our farm system. I don't know if it is Melvin or Mark A. that keeps pushing to be competitive year after year. I don't think it is going to happen. This seems pretty similar to the Fielder situation in 2010 except with a worse farm system. My guess is no trade.

[SRB]

This seems pretty similar to the Fielder situation in 2010 except with a worse farm system. My guess is no trade.

They had another year of Fielder after 2010 though (which ended up getting us into the playoffs with a team that should have gone to the World Series, embarrassing postseason performance aside). Simply no reason to keep Greinke if there is no extension and Melvin is getting decent offers.

 

Also, I'm not sure why people are looking at 20/20 hindsight rosters and blaming Melvin for doing something wrong by making trades that got us two postseasons. That's like saying he's an idiot for not drafting Albert Pujols in the later rounds. Where is Matt LaPorta on this hypothetical roster? (exactly)

[paul253]

I think hanging onto Hart as opposed to trading him and maximizing his value while he still has some would be a major mistake. If we not only hang onto him but extend him I really question if Doug Melvin is the type of GM who should be running a small market franchise. Corey Hart is not a franchise player and paying him $12 million a year for three or four years would be foolish.

[logan82]

This seems pretty similar to the Fielder situation in 2010 except with a worse farm system. My guess is no trade.

They had another year of Fielder after 2010 though (which ended up getting us into the playoffs with a team that should have gone to the World Series, embarrassing postseason performance aside). Simply no reason to keep Greinke if there is no extension and Melvin is getting decent offers.

 

Also, I'm not sure why people are looking at 20/20 hindsight rosters and blaming Melvin for doing something wrong by making trades that got us two postseasons. That's like saying he's an idiot for not drafting Albert Pujols in the later rounds. Where is Matt LaPorta on this hypothetical roster? (exactly)

Hart is signed through 2013.

 

Most posters here are not looking at things in hindsight. Most of these opinions were the same as they were at the time of the trades. I know Crew07 has been against trading prospects for years.

[SRB]

This seems pretty similar to the Fielder situation in 2010 except with a worse farm system. My guess is no trade.

They had another year of Fielder after 2010 though (which ended up getting us into the playoffs with a team that should have gone to the World Series, embarrassing postseason performance aside). Simply no reason to keep Greinke if there is no extension and Melvin is getting decent offers.

 

Also, I'm not sure why people are looking at 20/20 hindsight rosters and blaming Melvin for doing something wrong by making trades that got us two postseasons. That's like saying he's an idiot for not drafting Albert Pujols in the later rounds. Where is Matt LaPorta on this hypothetical roster? (exactly)

Hart is signed through 2013.

 

Most posters here are not looking at things in hindsight. Most of these opinions were the same as they were at the time of the trades. I know Crew07 has been against trading prospects for years.

Ok, I am dumb. I was thinking Greinke not Hart

 

The other point remains though. You can't talk about how trading prospects is always a bad idea and then ignore the fact that we got Sabathia, one of the greatest half seasons from a pitcher of all time, and a playoff run primarily for a player that is currently valueless. The goal is to get the playoffs, and Melvin has accomplished that at a very high rate (relatively speaking). I think the extreme pro-prospect position is a lottery mentality; you are perpetually waiting for an entirely home-grown core that is competitive year-after-year, and which is never going to materialize.

[paul253]

you are perpetually waiting for an entirely home-grown core that is competitive year-after-year, and which is never going to materialize.

 

We had a home grown core but now that core is breaking up so we need to make sure we have a new core to replace them. By trading a guy like Hart or Weeks you are hopefully replacing an old "core" member with a new one. This is how a small market team competes more than one or two years at a time.

[SRB]

you are perpetually waiting for an entirely home-grown core that is competitive year-after-year, and which is never going to materialize.

 

We had a home grown core but now that core is breaking up so we need to make sure we have a new core to replace them. By trading a guy like Hart or Weeks you are hopefully replacing an old "core" member with a new one. This is how a small market team competes more than one or two years at a time.

Absolutely... You build a small central core and then when you see an opportunity to go for it (e.g. 2008, 2011) you trade away prospects for impact players. I was only referring to people second-guessing Melvin for ever having traded for Greinke, not people who want to trade Hart or Greinke now.

[logan82]

2011 really was closer to a 50/50 odds than the CC trade. I could see how in 2010 trading Fielder for a pitching prospect and sticking with the minor leaguers we had may have been a better choice. Escobar would be better tan anything we currently have at SS in the system. Odorizzi would be much better than anything we have for a MiLB pitcher and would be nice to have as a solid contributer as early as late this year. Lawrie would have been nice at the hot corner.

 

I don't think it was the wrong move. We may have been better starting a rebuild in 2010 though.

 

It is extremely difficult to tell who is the driving force behind these moves though, Melvin hasn't exactly had a propensity to trade for MiLB talent, but Mark A. seems to want to compete every year.

 

By the way, almost every single move will be second guessed. That is the nature of message boards. If you disagree, present a thoughtful argument. Not that you haven't.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't mind the Greinke trade honestly; I know TC07 didn't like the deal at the time. I was convinced that the Brewers would be able to extend Zack, though. I think the gameplan should have been to build around Ryan Braun, though I get the 'go for it' mentality with a duo like Prince & Braun. The CC magic ride was amazing, no doubt. But if a similar package had been able to get the Brewers say a Matt Cain (never something I saw rumored, just some random then-young arm), then you're talking a legit playoff contender beyond just 2008.

 

I really feel torn on Hart. I love his defense at 1B, and I don't think he's going to fall off a cliff anytime soon. My heart says sign him but my head says get youth value for him. I also love Corey Hart the dude. He just seems like a cool guy.

[logan82]

There were 2 very different directions that we could have gone in 2010. I think it will be very difficult to tell which was the better one to take except in hindsight and even then it depends on your overall baseball philosophy.

 

If we do keep Hart it only makes sense if we can get some pitching in another trade. I know we have a lot of pitching in the minors but I am not sure if it is Impact Pitching™.

[Oldcity]

Man would I love to get out from under the Ramirez contract. Don't see Doug (okay, Mark A.) going for it in a million years, though.

 

http://www.chadmoriyama.com/2012/07/dodgers-trade-targets-taking-a-look-at-aramis-hart-dempster-cuddyer-hamels/

[paul253]

If the Brewers have an opportunity to get out of the Ramirez contract you do it. Taylor Green can handle third base for the time being. And then when you trade Greinke you can target a guy like Olt from Texas or Castellanos from Detroit. I'd trade Ramirez for Hairston if LA pays the majority of Ramirez salary.

 

But yes you're right. Mark A. would never allow us to trade a veteran so we can play a rookie, no matter how much it saves us.

[torts]

Man would I love to get out from under the Ramirez contract. Don't see Doug (okay, Mark A.) going for it in a million years, though.

 

http://www.chadmoriyama.com/2012/07/dodgers-trade-targets-taking-a-look-at-aramis-hart-dempster-cuddyer-hamels/

 

doesnt Ramirez have a no trade clause?

[trwi7]

Man would I love to get out from under the Ramirez contract. Don't see Doug (okay, Mark A.) going for it in a million years, though.

 

http://www.chadmoriyama.com/2012/07/dodgers-trade-targets-taking-a-look-at-aramis-hart-dempster-cuddyer-hamels/

 

doesnt Ramirez have a no trade clause?

 

I don't think he does.

[Roderick]

If the Brewers have an opportunity to get out of the Ramirez contract you do it.

Amen. All the better if LA actually would give us something for him. I had actually forgotten about his $4M buyout.