Ryan Braun...might just have the prettiest right handed swing I've ever seen

[The stache]

When baseball fans and historians talk about hitters with the prettiest swings, a few names invariably pop into the discussion. Most of the time, it's left handed batters-Ken Griffey Jr certainly belongs in the discussion. He generated phenomenal power, yet his swing was so graceful. Ted Williams had an iconic swing. So beautiful was the Splendid Splinter's stroke that Robert Redford used it as the basis of his character in "the Natural". He said he grew up idolizing Williams, and before he could watch him play on TV, he'd analyze his swing from pictures. His portrayal of Roy Hobbs was his nod to the game's greatest hitter. Other hitters certainly have beautiful swings, ones that seem so effortless, like they're not even trying, yet the ball just flys when contact is made.

 

The more I watch Ryan Braun hit, the more impressed I am with the fluidity of his swing. He generates incredible power, power that he's really only now starting to truly tap into. He's hit 37 HR before, but didn't have the average then. Even last year, when he won the MVP, he hit "only" 33 HR.

 

He has 22 bombs in under half a season, and he might shatter his personal best. That remains to be seen. But when you look at him swing a bat, that fluidity is so apparent.

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WrMiZ9TcbRc/T45Fd0QzYPI/AAAAAAAAABE/dR_SuXFYiew/s1600/Ryan+Braun+Brewers.jpeg

 

Ryan Braun's form is perfection.

 

Watch these two homeruns he hit tonight:

 

http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=22740205&c_id=mil&topic_id=28033182

 

Even on a pitch low and away, his extension, his form is...perfect. He has the classic lower body power, and upper body torque...together they generate just incredible bat speed.

 

Is there a hitter today that's got a prettier swing? He might be the best right handed hitter in the game. He certainly belongs in the conversation of best hitters overall, along with Joey Votto, and Miguel Cabrera.

 

I think it's safe to say that Brauny is doing just fine without the big guy behind him.

[Mike2k33]

Ryan Braun could hit a fruit fly at 100 mph. He's crazy good. Like, I'd absolutely hate it if he was on a different team. He'd be so awful to face.

 

 

Please stay for as long as you can swing it, Ryan. I'd love it.

[The stache]

Ya, I'm so glad we have him locked up long term.

[pacopete4]

If I ever heard someone say we should have paid Prince over Braun, I'd laugh hysterically until I threw up.

[3and2Fastball]

Braun's swing reminds me of Joe DiMaggio's, although Braun doesn't follow through as much as Joltin' Joe

 

Ironically, Braun's approach at the plate is very similar to Derek Jeter's. I'd be willing to bet that when Braun was a kid his favorite player was Jeter. Similar mannerisms approaching the plate, similar in his swing in not following through fully a lot of times, similar hand up to the umpire as he settles into the box. Braun has a much nicer swing than Jeter though, but up until it is time to swing, it is very similar

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Had an interesting discussion with a former MLB player who was giving the sons of a colleague of mine lessons. He mentioned how Braun has the type of swing they try and teach kids these days and used Paul Molitor as an example of how not to swing. That's a big change in philosophy since I was playing. He said Molitor was the last successful front foot hitters and no one outside of slap hitters can get away with that anymore. I was always taught to emulate his perfect level swing and step into the ball. That's not how they teach them today.

 

As 'stache mentioned, Braun has the perfect torque and balance in his swing. He has a beatuiful downward plane on his swing that generates that backspin. I love how he prepares before he steps into the box with his downward stroke for muscle memory. The guy is not only a physical talent, he has an incredible, efficient and perfect swing. He's one smart dude.

 

I always felt the only things missing in his early years from having a HoF career were plate discipline and health...at this point it's just a matter of health. The guy is incredible.

[3and2Fastball]

Had an interesting discussion with a former MLB player who was giving the sons of a colleague of mine lessons. He mentioned how Braun has the type of swing they try and teach kids these days and used Paul Molitor as an example of how not to swing. That's a big change in philosophy since I was playing. He said Molitor was the last successful front foot hitters and no one outside of slap hitters can get away with that anymore. I was always taught to emulate his perfect level swing and step into the ball. That's not how they teach them today.

 

That is fascinating to me as I have a 9 year old baseball playing fanatic son who is a pretty decent hitter. He's been coached up to stay balanced in his swing and step into the pitch. Hank Aaron was a front foot swinger and that worked out pretty well for him

 

Somewhat Off-Topic but if anyone has or knows baseball playing kids, I highly recommend Brad Woodall's baseball clinics in the Madison area. Woodall was a MLB pitcher (and a former Brewer) but also a college pitcher/outfielder who hit over .270 in MLB, he is a great teacher/coach and has much to teach kids about the proper mechanics of hitting, pitching, & fielding. My kid has learned a ton from him

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I think it was more about where the weight is on the swing. Stepping into it is ok for tempo, but the key is keeping the weight balanced like your son is doing versus putting it into the front foot. I'm no expert and my kids play softball, not baseball, so I'll defer to any expert. Just thought it was interesting.

[The stache]

Roberto Clemente was notorious for swinging off his front foot, too. He never met a pitch he didn't like. He could hit a ball that was an inch from bouncing across the plate, and because he was such a free swinger, he made his manager Danny Murtaugh nuts. But when you win four batting titles, you get a pass. Ichiro is the same way. Like Clemente, he isn't a power hitter, but the guy can hit anything. I think there's a lot of similarities between the two. Ichiro is a modern day Roberto Clemente. Both are Hall of Famers, and highly unorthodox in their hitting techniques.

[3and2Fastball]

Roberto Clemente was notorious for swinging off his front foot, too. He never met a pitch he didn't like. He could hit a ball that was an inch from bouncing across the plate, and because he was such a free swinger, he made his manager Danny Murtaugh nuts. But when you win four batting titles, you get a pass. Ichiro is the same way. Like Clemente, he isn't a power hitter, but the guy can hit anything. I think there's a lot of similarities between the two. Ichiro is a modern day Roberto Clemente. Both are Hall of Famers, and highly unorthodox in their hitting techniques.

 

And both somewhat overrated in the context of the All-Time greats because they didn't take a lot of walks and didn't hit for much power.

[dlk9s]

Clemente's power numbers, while nothing exciting, are solid enough for the era in which he played. Don't forget both guys are/were tremendous defensively. Ichiro has a lot of SB's, too.

[3and2Fastball]

I agree, they are both 2 of the greatest defensive right-fielders of All-Time. Clemente's power was good but not great. A 130 OPS+. What I'm saying is, for Clemente, the lack of extra power plus lack of walks plus lack of steals is why he ranks a few tiers down from the greatest of All-Time outfielders such as Aaron or Mays or Mantle or Williams

[HiAndTight]

If I ever heard someone say we should have paid Prince over Braun, I'd laugh hysterically until I threw up.

 

 

If we could have gotten Prince for the same PRICE as Braun, it's not nearly the ridiculous notion you suggest. I'll take Braun, but just because Prince is gone, lets not dismiss how great he was and continues to be.

 

However we got 8 incredibly cheap years of Braun saving.......hell..I don't know, 100 million? I believe we bought out 3 years of FA, and with an MVP, ROY, and 3rd place finish in another year in MVP voting under his belt, his arbitration number would have gone through the roof. He may have been a Lincecum type scenario setting arbitration records. So MAYBE we saved 100 million with athat 8 year deal from what he COULD have gotten? According to Baseballreference.com, he's getting paid 6 million this year, 8.5 next year when he'd have been a FA, 10 and 12 million in '14 and '15. What the hell would he have been getting paid if he was a FA in those years? He'd have been signed to a Prince like deal, if not more for what is a perceived duribility issue for Prince(That's just because he's big) and Braun's speed and probability that he'll age well. Forgetting that not only would he have gotten 24-25(IMO) in his first couple FA years, but it'd have taken a 10 year deal to sign him. And then you factor in we got him for another 5 years at 21 million per year...but it's not really 20 million per year. I think it's 16 a couple years and 18 the last couple...maybe? Anyway, it's ridiculously underpriced for him in TODAY'S economics, much less what they will be in 2020, and even LESS when you consider that the deferred salary, while it'll suck in 2030 when we still owe him money and he's not playing, I hardly expect a Brewers fan to complain about it. It'd be like if we signed Molitor to an extension and were still "stuck," paying him 250K for 10 years until 2005. To keep a player like that around..you don't really complain about the peanuts you're paying him while you're waiting for his induction into the HOF.

 

 

We're not talking about Bobby Bonilla here. And I BELIEVE, please someone correct me if any of this is wrong as it's sorta just buckshot and off the top of my head, but the deferred money is interest FREE.

 

 

Now if we'd have gotten Prince to a contract like that, and Braun would have left, we'd be sitting here and saying, "yeah, that sucks, but we signed Prince to a ridiculously great deal," and probably would have justified it by saying we didn't have a 1B to replace Prince, but with Schafer, Gindl and how much easier it is to sign OF'ers...blah..blah..blah." So I'll just be thrilled with Braun's deal and the fact that we started with Prince and Braun and we probably paid about half price in total to keep one of the two potential future HOF'ers.

[HiAndTight]

I agree, they are both 2 of the greatest defensive right-fielders of All-Time. Clemente's power was good but not great. A 130 OPS+. What I'm saying is, for Clemente, the lack of extra power plus lack of walks plus lack of steals is why he ranks a few tiers down from the greatest of All-Time outfielders such as Aaron or Mays or Mantle or Williams

 

 

That's absolutely fair. I agreed with you when you initially wrote that, and then I did a quick look at his stats, and his HR's, OBP, SLG and then obviouly OPS are all far lower than I thought when you mentioned that. For my money, the greatest OF'er of all time is an argument between Williams and Ruth, and Mays, Aaron and Mantle fall in all a pretty clear full tier below them(while still being among the top 10 or so greatest position players of all time).

 

 

Clemente also obviously played in a completely different offensive era. He'd probably have been a 30+HR a year guy if he played in today's stadiums with 30 teams and new stadiums. Either way, that arm was simply legandary and if you hit .340 for your career, you're in an elite group even if you didn't walk much.

 

 

 

 

The thing about Braun and his swing though, is while he swings at a lot of pitches out of the zone, a lot of the time, he swings at pitches out of the zone that he can do something with. He swings at those pitches on the lower outside corner of the zone where he drill the ball over the RF wall unlike anyone playing today IMO. You can't really use a shift vs him. Heck, I think I've seen him hit more balls out of the park that were off the plate low and away than he hit right down the middle this year.

 

He's also got a just amazing ability to adjust DURING his swing. They say look fastball, adjust to off speed. Yeah, that's real easy to do. I think everyone should go to a batting cage and try to do that just once. I played and was a pretty good hitter for a team ranked 1st in state losing only to the eventual state champs in the sectional finals 3-2 after a 2 run walk off in the bottom of the 7th. So I thought I could hit. I took a few of my Nephews to a batting cage. I decided to jump in. I wanted to just SEE some sliders and fastballs mixed in. I told the person controlling it to switch it up, fastballs at 75 which I thought was easy and the sliders at 65. First couple fastballs, no problem. First slider...it bounced and my bat was probably about 2 feet away from where the ball ended up. After that, I couldn't touch a easy fastball or a slider. I had my nephews just giggling, but it's an experiance I think baseball fans should have. It gives you a bit of perspective as to why a guy can swing at a ball that bounces 2 feet outside, and it can give you that much more respect for a guy like Braun who can adjust his swing and sit back long enough to hammer any pitch. I'm not trying to compare myself to them obviously, but even at what is slower than batting practice for those guys, it just made me even more in amazement as to what these guys truly are capable of. And Braun moreso than almost any of them.

 

Now when I see Ryan Braun up there vs a reliever who throws 96 and comes back with an 86 MPH slider, or a 12-6 and he can adjust and not only foul it off, but really do something with it....I'm just in awe.

 

So it's his swing which is absolutely a thing of beauty, but it's his bat control which is just off the charts. He's taking his walks at almost a 10 pct rate, so he's not just a hacker. He's not Clemente who was at about 6 pct or Ichiro who's at an identical 6.1 pct, but is closer to 4-5 the last few years.

 

He's taking his walks. He's just capable of hitting the balls that aren't in the strikezone.

 

 

 

 

------One last thing, remember when some(myself to some degree included) where concerened that he wasn't the power hitter he initially showed as his ISO dropped the first 4 years of his careeer after his historic .310 ISO rookie season? He's at .295 right now, and has nearly doubled his walk rate. The guy is actually getting better. 7.8 WAR last year, 4.0 at the midpoint this year...I doubt he'll ever touch Yount's 82 season as that was driven by unusually high defensive ratings, but he can sure come close.

[The stache]

Roberto Clemente was notorious for swinging off his front foot, too. He never met a pitch he didn't like. He could hit a ball that was an inch from bouncing across the plate, and because he was such a free swinger, he made his manager Danny Murtaugh nuts. But when you win four batting titles, you get a pass. Ichiro is the same way. Like Clemente, he isn't a power hitter, but the guy can hit anything. I think there's a lot of similarities between the two. Ichiro is a modern day Roberto Clemente. Both are Hall of Famers, and highly unorthodox in their hitting techniques.

 

And both somewhat overrated in the context of the All-Time greats because they didn't take a lot of walks and didn't hit for much power.

 

Clemente is hardly overrated. Base on balls were not a big deal when Clemente played. Go back and look at the yearly leaders all throughout the 60's. From 1960-1968, only one person in the NL walked more than 100 times in a season. Eddie Matthews did it twice. If you walked 70-75 times in a season, you were usually in the top 5.

[The stache]

I agree, they are both 2 of the greatest defensive right-fielders of All-Time. Clemente's power was good but not great. A 130 OPS+. What I'm saying is, for Clemente, the lack of extra power plus lack of walks plus lack of steals is why he ranks a few tiers down from the greatest of All-Time outfielders such as Aaron or Mays or Mantle or Williams

 

This is ridiculous. Clemente doesn't rank "a few tiers down" from Mays, or Mantle, or Williams. Mantle and Williams couldn't touch Clemente in the field. He's probably the greatest defensive right fielder the game has ever seen with twelve gold gloves. Only Mays was his peer.

 

And unlike the others, Clemente was still an elite hitter at the end of his career. The last three seasons he played before he died, he hit .352, .341 and .312.

[3and2Fastball]

Clemente didn't have a decline, his last year was age 37 and then he died in a plane crash. His career stats were .317/.359/.834

 

Aaron at age 37 hit 47 HR's while batting .327 with a 1.079 OPS. Despite playing until age 42 Aaaron finished with a .305/.374/.928 OPS

 

Does anyone know how to figure out what Aaron's stats were at age 37? Aaron finished with a career 155 OPS+

 

Mays also had a long decline until age 42 but still finished with a 156 OPS+ and a .941 OPS and a .384 OBP

 

Mantle was much better than Clemente in most offensive categories: OBP (.421 for a career OBP, that is incredible), OPS (.977), HR's, even stolen bases, and of course the amazing 172 career OPS+.

 

I could go on, there is Williams, Ruth, Cobb, Musial....all rank much higher than the great Roberto Clemente.

 

It is not just me: Bill James in his most recent Historical Abstract rates Clemente as the 8th greatest right-fielder of All-Time. His top 8 RF's:

 

1) Ruth

2) Aaron

3) Frank Robinson

4) Mel Ott

5) Pete Rose

6) Tony Gwynn

7) Reggie Jackson

8) Roberto Clemente

 

I disagree with James ranking Ott that high and personally would rank Clemente higher than Jackson and maybe Rose.

 

Among All Players, Bill James ranks Clemente as the #74 player of All-Time. He ranks Ruth 1st, Mays 3rd, Cobb 5th, Mantle 6th, Williams 7th, Musial 10th, Tris Speaker 11th, Aaron 12th

[3and2Fastball]

And unlike the others, Clemente was still an elite hitter at the end of his career. The last three seasons he played before he died, he hit .352, .341 and .312.

 

Musial hit .330 at age 41 and finished with a career .331 BA, .976 OPS and 159 OPS+

 

Ted Williams hit .388 at age 38! And finished with a 190 OPS+...

 

Babe Ruth hit .373 at age 36 and .341 at age 37 and finished with a .344 BA, and a 206 OPS+ and of course 3 times as many HR's as Clemente

 

Clemente ranks 161st All-Time in OPS+, tied with Dave Winfield and Greg Luzinski.

 

Getting back to the topic of the thread: Braun currently ranks 46th All-Time in OPS+

[The stache]

In right field, I would probably go Ruth, Aaron, Clemente, Robinson.

 

I think a little too much emphasis is being put on offense. If it's offensive production alone, there's no question that Clemente lags slightly behind as he wasn't a power hitter. Great pure hitter? Absolutely. Could he have gotten on more if he were a little more patient? Ya, I suppose. But offense is half the game, and none of the players that have been mentioned except Mays come anywhere close to having the impact that Clemente had when the baseball glove was on. I wish there were a way to quantify how many extra bases he took away when the ball was hit to right. People learned not to test him. Aaron and Ruth drove in more runs. Clemente saved a lot of runs. Clemente was the Ozzie Smith of right fielders, and just happened to hit .317.

[The stache]

BTW, good discussion, 3and2Fastball. Much respect.

 

This is why I love baseball.

[3and2Fastball]

BTW, good discussion, 3and2Fastball. Much respect.

 

This is why I love baseball.

 

Me too! I love this stuff. Much respect right back to you. And what is fun about all this is that really there is not one definitive right and wrong, it is all just opinion. For all we know Clemente would have batted .388 in Ruth's time

 

Roberto Clemente as the "Ozzie Smith of right-field", I think that is a great way of looking at it, except as you said he batted .317 .... you've given me a fresh perspective on Clemente.

 

One thing I can add, I put a lot of emphasis when comparing players on post-season stats. Some people think that is foolish because it is such a small sample, but I think that how a player performs under the pressure of the playoffs and/or World Series tells us a lot about them (to me at least).

 

Roberto Clemente batted .362 in the World Series with a .900+ OPS.... much much better than Willie Mays' .239 BA .589 OPS in World Series play....hmmmmm

[The stache]

Ya, Clemente was spectacular in the World Series. Especially the second one.

 

He played in 14 WS games, and had at least one hit in all 14. That's impressive.

[TooLiveBrew]

So does Prince Fielder's .192 AVG and .817 postseason OPS make you think less of him as a hitter?

[The stache]

No. Given more chances, he'll eventually hit in the postseason. He just hasn't thus far. But there's no denying that Clemente was great in the biggest games. Can't do much better than a perfect 14 for 14 in the World Series.

[3and2Fastball]

So does Prince Fielder's .192 AVG and .817 postseason OPS make you think less of him as a hitter?

 

Yes, it really does make me think less of him. Absolutely. That said, he's relatively young and will likely have more postseasons in his career, including probably/maybe this season. So we'll see how he does going forward.

 

Also, Prince at least has had a good postseason series. So its not all bad and the total postseason stats don't fully reflect what he's done. Joe Morgan & Mike Schmidt are great examples of that: their total postseason stats aren't incredible but each had at least one World Series where they were either a WS MVP or just plain lights out great in a WS.... so context is important