Vizquel a HOFer?

[panthernick]

I was a bit shocked when Joe Block called Omar Vizquel a "sure bet" hall of famer during the radio broadcast Monday. Thoughts? I had never even thought he had a chance. Here are Vizquel's career numbers of note:

 

Hits: 2853

RBI: 946

AVG: .272

OBP: .337

Fielding %: .985

[pitchleague]

If Ozzie Smith got in with similar (or even worse) numbers, Vizquel should be there, too. He's had an outstanding career.

[3and2Fastball]

That is a tough one to call. And Vizquel does not compare well to Ozzie Smith:

 

While it is true that Vizquel has similar counting stats to Ozzie Smith, Smith has almost exactly twice the WAR value as Vizquel, and while Vizquel is one of the greatest defensive SS ever, Smith was better, or perceived as better or "more famous" for being better, however you want to put it. Vizquel was also never on a World Series winning team like Ozzie was, "only" won 11 Gold Gloves (Ozzie won 13). The biggest difference is that Vizquel played in 3 All-Star games, whereas Smith played in 15 All-Star games including 12 straight season of All-Star games and 15 out of 16. That is a helluva run for Smith in being "famous" as one of the best or the very best SS in the game, something Vizquel never came close to achieving.

 

When you are somewhat of a marginal Hall of Fame candidate, playing in only 3 All-Star games in a 24 year career does not help.

 

Vizquel has had his OPS+ over 100 only twice in his career, and has a career 82 OPS+ and career .669 OPS

 

I don't think he should get in, but I won't be surprised if he does...

[RockCoCougars]

I say no. He's basically Dave Concepcion with more longevity.

[rwa12]

I think his longevity brings him in. In this third or fourth year on the ballot.

[Funketown]

I probably wouldn't vote him in. Right now, I don't expect he'll get in. However, if he adds to his legacy by putting out 150 hits over 700 AB's over the next couple of years for some middling franchise, I bet he'll get in.

[reillymcshane]

I think he'll make it. A great defenders. 10 or so gold gloves. Almost 3000 hits. I think that will be enough for him.

 

And, honestly, people seem to like the guy. As silly as it seems, that will help.

 

Does he really deserve it? Not sure. He was more steady than great. Only one year hitting over .300. I'll say the writers will give him the nod when the time comes.

[panthernick]

As ridiculous as it seems, I also think his lack of "star power" in comparison to Ozzie will hurt him. Everyone knows the Wizard, not everyone knows Vizquel. Also, the longevity piece is a great story, but I think it actually diminishes his offensive numbers.

[craigharmann]

I think we can all agree that his chances of using PEDs are extremely low....so, since the ones that have question marks aren't getting in, why not the next guys in line?

[igor67]

The nearly at 3000 hits is a fair point, think about it the other way around. He has played 24 seasons and doesn't have 3000 hits. If he walked all the time that might be something, but while his defense was good it is not exceptional enough to put him over the top with essentially typical SS production with the bat.

[jerichoholicninja]

I think playing at the same time as Jeter, A-Rod, Garciaparra, Ripken, Tejada, etc. is going to hurt him as he was never considered the best at his position.

[TooLiveBrew]

Vizquel is the interesting case where his glove/defense is one of the best MLB has ever seen, & the question is whether or not he hit enough to get in. I'd say flip a coin on him, but I think I lean "in".

[dlk9s]

while his defense was good it is not exceptional enough to put him over the top with essentially typical SS production with the bat.

His defense has been amazing, not just good. I do agree that he's not a HOFer, though.

[BrewersSuperCollector]

Hall of Very Good. No to the Hall of Fame

[pebadger]

Not as good a hoofer as Donald Driver.

[JohnBriggs12]

I say no. He's basically Dave Concepcion with more longevity.

 

Sorry, that's not the guy I compare him to. Nor is Ozzie Smith. The guy he compares with is Luis Aparicio.

 

Aparicio is in and Vizquel will eventually join his fellow countryman, maybe not on the first or second ballots but not too many after that.

 

He played in the steroid era, and lots of guys will be kept out because of it. That helps his cause.

[3and2Fastball]

It will be interesting to see just how many players will be kept out of the HOF due to the steroids thing. I think many of them will get in eventually. Clemens being found Not Guilty in his trial will certainly help his cause. I think a lot of the other guys from that era, where there was suspicion but no proof, (Bagwell, Piazza etc) will get in too....

 

In some ways, Vizquel being from that era may hurt his cause. A sub .700 OPS in Aparicio's time is one thing, but a sub .700 in the same era as Nomar, Jeter, Larkin, Arod, etc? That really hurts Vizquel in perception and WAR scores (not that I think a lot of sportswriters are looking at WAR scores)

[JohnBriggs12]

It will be interesting to see just how many players will be kept out of the HOF due to the steroids thing. I think many of them will get in eventually. Clemens being found Not Guilty in his trial will certainly help his cause. I think a lot of the other guys from that era, where there was suspicion but no proof, (Bagwell, Piazza etc) will get in too....

 

In some ways, Vizquel being from that era may hurt his cause. A sub .700 OPS in Aparicio's time is one thing, but a sub .700 in the same era as Nomar, Jeter, Larkin, Arod, etc? That really hurts Vizquel in perception and WAR scores (not that I think a lot of sportswriters are looking at WAR scores)

 

 

He's got perhaps the best fielding percentage of all time at SS (.985). He owns 11 gold gloves. That in and of itself is worthy of serious HOF consideration. Throw in almost 3,000 hits, and it's a virtual lock.

[gregmag]

3000 hits in 25 years is 120 hits a year. So the question becomes, how much do you value longevity for its own sake? He's been a pretty consistently poor hitter who plays great defense at the toughest defensive position. What a weird case.

 

I don't buy the argument that he will, let alone should, have a better chance if other guys are left out for juicing. If you choose to disqualify an era's best players (however justified that choice is or isn't), you don't then let in the next tier. That makes no sense to me.

 

Also, I'm not entirely convinced that either Smith or Aparicio belongs -- certainly not convinced enough to say that a guy who's almost Smith, or almost Aparicio, also belongs.

 

One important part of the debate over Vizquel, I think, has to do with the relative importance of ss defense in his era. Maybe this comes out in WAR; I'm not sure. But Vizquel has played in an era when HRs and Ks have been, I'm pretty sure, more important parts of the game than in Ozzie Smith's era, let alone Luis Aparicio's era. Let's assume for the sake of argument that Vizquel has had close to the defensive skill that Smith had, but that Vizquel's skill hasn't helped his teams as much as Smith's did because that skill was relatively less important given the era Vizquel played in. How should we deal with that?

 

I think it should diminish his chances, even though on one level that seems unfair. But the game is what it is, at any given time, and winning takes what it takes. If you're a guy with a gift for hitting 360-foot flies, but you play in an era of 375-foot power alleys, it's the same deal.

 

I think the right way to judge a player is to try to figure out how much he helped his teams win. Just knowing that he got 3000 hits, and/or that he was a great defensive ss, doesn't necessarily answer the question. Nine chances out of ten, a guy with those characteristics is a probably Hall of Famer. But the guy who took 1988-2012 to do it may just be the tenth.

[BrewersSuperCollector]

I don't think he'll make the HOF. There was no Fame in his career. He was never the best player on his team, and I don't think he was even the 2nd best player on his team.

[HiAndTight]

If he gets to 3,000 hits, its' just another litmus test to see if some of the "old," numbers that automatically makes you a 1st time ballot guy still exists.

 

I'm not going to bother to compare him to Aparicio, or Concepcion.

 

There are players in the Hall that shouldn't be and players who should be, which is why when I asked the question regarding Adam Dunn, I asked a two fold question. SHOULD he get into the HOF and WILL he.

 

 

Should he? Nah, probably not. I don't feel that strongly about that. He has 2854 hits, one of the greatest few defensive SS's ever to play, but I think if you go year by year...I would doubt he had too many years he was in the top 3 of all shortstop's in the game.

 

But I don't see the writers keeping a guy who's defensive reputation is just below Ozzie's and who has nearly 3000 hits.

[RockCoCougars]

In my view, Vizquel has no shot at 3,000 hits. His glove has kept him around for the past several years, but he barely plays shortstop anymore in the sparing playing time that he gets. I think that he's at the end of the line, and I've actually been surprised that he's found work the past few years.

[TooLiveBrew]

I literally didn't know he was still playing until he popped up in a game against the Brewers. 45 years old!!!

[HiAndTight]

In my view, Vizquel has no shot at 3,000 hits. His glove has kept him around for the past several years, but he barely plays shortstop anymore in the sparing playing time that he gets. I think that he's at the end of the line, and I've actually been surprised that he's found work the past few years.

 

 

If Julio Franco can play to 49 as well as Jamie Moyer, I see no reason why Omar can't stick around for 3 more years and get 50 hits a year. I think saying he has no shot is truly pushing it.

 

I don't see him having trouble finding a job as a utility guy, and the closer he gets, the more of a novelty he'd be.

[RockCoCougars]

Fifty hits a year is a major stretch at this point if he is a part time player. Even if he was able to accomplish that, we'd be looking at Spring 2015 as a target date. In my view, the only way that Vizquel is going to get to 3,000 is if someone is desperate enough to give him a regular job next season and if he can stay healthy enough to hold it. Two huge ifs.