Softball Rules Question

[tdeggie]

This happened in a softball game that I was playing in and I'm just wondering what the right call would have been. It did not have a bearing on the outcome of the game as it was a blowout.

 

Bottom of the 3rd, 2 out, runners on first and second. The hitter hit a ball to the gap. The outfielder gets the ball and throws it to the cutoff, then the cutoff throws it home. Both runners were safe at home. The batter never left the home plate area, maybe moved a couple steps toward first but blew out his knee on the swing. The umpire after the second runner scored for some reason called time. The batter never made it to first, nor was thrown out or tagged out before he called time. I believe the ump messed up because the play was not over.

 

After the umps and coaches talked (the game was pretty out of hand already) they scored both runs and called the runner out.

 

So what should have happened? If the batter is out, it is a force out and neither run would have scored. But because the umpire messed up, does the batter get first base?

 

Just curious in case something like this ever happens again. Which I obviously hope never does, the injury was pretty gruesome.

 

Thanks in advance to all who can help.

 

If you have other questions that would help please let me know.

[jerichoholicninja]

Since this seems like bar league softball both teams might have made some sort of agreement but the correct call would be once the batter is tagged out or put out the inning is over and neither run would score because of the force out.

[trwi7]

I would guess the ump made the right call. He probably shouldn't have called time but since the runner was hurt and was going to be tagged out anyways, he just saved a couple extra seconds by calling him out.

[TooLiveBrew]

So what should have happened? If the batter is out, it is a force out and neither run would have scored. But because the umpire messed up, does the batter get first base?

 

The ump definitely 'messed up' in calling "time" before the play had come to a live natural conclusion (I put 'messed up' in quotes since clearly the ump just had the injured player's best interests in mind... and I don't mean to imply you weren't/aren't empathetic, tdeggie). However, the subsequent ruling needed to have more clarification from the ump imo.

 

The nature of the out is relevant -- obviously like you said, if it was a force out then the runs shouldn't have been counted. And I'm not sure that a tag out for this situation would be the same as actually taking the force out at 1B... but the play never got to that point thanks to the premature "time" call.

 

I'm honestly not sure exactly what rule was applied to call the batter-runner out... the closest I can think of is that the batter-runner 'gave himself up', but that's typically reserved for a batter-runner who just turns & heads to the dugout without making any kind of attempt at 1B. And I'm not certain if giving yourself up as a batter-runner is regarded as a force out at 1B or not; I'd have to check the rules on that. And there might even be a special provision for a play just like this, where the batter-runner is injured during the play & unable to proceed to 1B.

 

But the ump certainly botched this situation, and in all likelihood it was probably because he/she has never had that situation come up in a game before. From what you've described it just sounds like the ump didn't know how to handle the scenario, and just worked out an arrangement that both managers were satisfied with... which certainly doesn't mean the correct call was made.

[jerichoholicninja]

And I'm not sure that a tag out for this situation would be the same as actually taking the force out at 1B... but the play never got to that point thanks to the premature "time" call.

 

Tagging a runner before he gets to first is a force out. I think tagging any runner who is forced to advance is considered a force out.

[TooLiveBrew]

And I'm not sure that a tag out for this situation would be the same as actually taking the force out at 1B... but the play never got to that point thanks to the premature "time" call.

 

Tagging a runner before he gets to first is a force out. I think tagging any runner who is forced to advance is considered a force out.

Interesting.

[RobDeer 45]

Ya the runs should not have scored but unless the game has a lot of meaning or is close I don't think I would have argued really. And yes, if it is a force at any base, if you tag the runner it's still a force out. The runner has to advance, that is the key, not how he was put out.

[tdeggie]

Thanks to everyone who contributed I appreciate it.

[olliegjw]

There is a rule in ASA (not sure about other associations) that says the umpire can call time, if a player needs immediate medical attention. They then award any bases that they think would have been reached. In your case, I could see using this rule, and awarding either first and third, or just first with two runs in.

[MJLiverock]

I had to post this one because I had never heard of such a ruling as happened in our game earlier this week. The guy in front of me hit a slow roller down the third base line while I was on deck. The ball was rolling right on the line so I was yelling for him to run it out because it looked like it would stay fair. Sure enough the ball rolled all the way to the bag and bounced off it into foul territory. The ump called it foul. Since it happened right in front of our bench everyone erupted that hitting the bag made it fair. The ump said he knew the third base foul line wasn't drawn perfectly straight in the right spot so you couldn't go by the line and that part of the third base bag was actually in foul territory and the ball hit the bag where it is in foul territory.

 

Regardless of claiming the line shouldn't be trusted and the the ump was just going to eyeball what he thought the line was from home to 3rd, I had never heard of claiming part of the base is in foul territory before.

 

We aren't talking about some line that veers way off, no one looking down it could see anything unusual about it and the bag placement looked totally normal. No one could figure out how part of the bag can be in foul territory.

[TURBO]

The bag can not be foul, the bag is fair, the entire bag...If the ball touches any part of the bag, it is a fair ball.

 

That ump was wrong!

[TooLiveBrew]

I've had it explained to me by a good ump that if a batted ball were to hit (& not pass) 1B or 3B, and wind up in foul territory, the ball is foul.

 

In fact I also talked with the poster Jason21nl, and he relayed a story from one of his baseball games where a batted ball bounced off the pitching rubber & sideways into foul territory (& not past 1B or 3B), & it was ruled a foul ball.

 

However, the more I've learned about rules over the years, the more I know to never think the way you understood things is infallible.

[MJLiverock]

The pitching rubber one I can understand being foul but like Turborickey stated I was under the impression the entire bag is fair and hitting it no matter where the ball ended up made it a fair ball.

 

Searching around the internet everything I find says if the ball touches 1st or 3rd base it is a fair ball. A few places even describe that the entire bag is always fair territory. Which makes sense to me so you don't have guys trying to make judgements like part of the bag being fair/foul.

 

MLB Rule 2.00, definition of Fair Ball:

 

A FAIR BALL is a batted ball that settles on fair ground between home and first base, or between home and third base, or that is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base, or that touches first, second or third base, or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first base or third base, or that, while on or over fair territory touches the person of an umpire or player, or that, while over fair territory, passes out of the playing field in flight.

[TooLiveBrew]

Searching around the internet everything I find says if the ball touches 1st or 3rd base it is a fair ball. A few places even describe that the entire bag is always fair territory. Which makes sense to me so you don't have guys trying to make judgements like part of the bag being fair/foul.

Yep, and I just found it word-for-word in the ASA (2006) rulebook --

 

A fair ball is a batted ball that:

E. Touches first, second, or third base.

[Baldkin]

Situation: Bases Loaded, 2 outs.

 

Slow ground ball hit right up the middle. Guy on 3rd touches home plate. Then the ball hits the runner going from 1st to 2nd.

 

Dead ball, runner is out. Does the run count?

 

Per the mlb rules:

 

From the official rule book Rule 7.08: the runner is out if "He is touched by a fair ball in fair territory before the ball has touched or passed an infielder. The ball is dead and no runner may score, nor runners advance, except runners forced to advance. EXCEPTION: If a runner is touching his base when touched by an Infield Fly, he is not out, although the batter is out;

 

The bold part is what I'm not sure of.

[jerichoholicninja]

If the runner was forced to advance, which in your situation he was, no run scores.

[Baldkin]

Logic in general, would seem to dictate that no run should score, or else you'd have guys running out into the outfield to try to knock down a fly ball anytime there are guys on with two outs.

 

I just can't seem to find the actual relevant rule.

[jimmyjeromehardy7]

The batter is awarded first base correct? I am thinking since the ball hit the runner going to 2nd the runners on 2nd and 3rd are no longer forced to advance and must remain. If the ball hit the runner going the 3rd the previous runner on first has to go to second since the batter is now on first but the runner on 3rd would still have to remain at 3rd.

[DHonks]

what about that weird one last year where the Brewers gave up a run on a forced 3rd out? I think it was a catch, and they forced out a runner that didn't tag, but before the tag-forceout happened, another runner scored and they counted the run.

[RightFieldCoder]

Rule 4.09(a)

One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first,

second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a

play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first

base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is

declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

The runner is not forced out for not tagging. It is actually a live appeal play. You are appealing that he left early, the same as if the pitcher stepped off the rubber and threw to first. If the runner gets back to the bag before you get the ball there, he obviously didn't leave early. If you get the ball back before the runner is there, he obviously left early. Since it is not a force out the run counts if the runner tags home before you appeal.

 

APPROVED RULING: One out, Jones on third, Smith on first, and Brown flies out to right field.

Two outs. Jones tags up and scores after the catch. Smith attempted to return to first but the right

fielder’s throw beat him to the base. Three outs. But Jones scored before the throw to catch Smith

reached first base, hence Jones’ run counts. It was not a force play.