Wasting Money

[Bombers]

I am probably going to rant a little here. I am just lost at why this team can sweep the Dodgers but get swept by the Ned Yost led Royals. I am sick of the Brewers wasting Money to middle of the road players. Or even a 1-2 All star level talent. See:

1. Weeks - $10 mil

2. Wolf - $10 mil

3. Hart - $9 mil

4. Ramirez - $10 mil

5. K-rod - 8 mil

(AVG Salaries)

 

So we can waste away $47 million dollars but we can't sign Sabathia and Prince for the same money (Each make $23 mil per year)? I know long term committment. Could be the doom of our franchise. But oh yeah, the Blue Jays dumped Vernon Wells and his horrendous contract ($21 mil per year) so I am pretty sure Prince or Sabathia's contract could be dumped at some point too. Or how could we possible fill the other 3 positions. (Ummm pre-arby guys make 400k per year. Works for me. Give me Prince, Sabathia, and 3 pre-arby guys over these clowns)

 

I am sick of us signing these players to this money and letting the great players we have walk. Mediocre + Mediocre + Mediocre = Mediocre!!! And this year it equals last place.

 

Will the Brewers ever stop paying for these players and just start playing the guys in our minors who are collecting dust? I would prefer to have a few GREAT players, than a bunch of mediocre garbage.

 

Ok, I feel a little better.

[rluzinski]

The first 3 guys you listed played a major part in getting the Brewers to the second round of the playoffs last year. The only guy on that list who probably never projected to be worth his 2012 salary was KRod but relievers generally aren't worth very much in general (they just don't accumulate enough innings to be worth a ton).

 

You seem to be advocating a scrubs and studs approach, which can work but is most certainly not the only option. $8-$10 mil/year gets you an average player who is is worth about 2 wins over a scrub.

[jjfanec]

Hart is better than middle of the road

Weeks is just having a terrible year that contract was not a bad one

Wolf has been bad this year but was instrumental in us making the playoffs last season

Ramirez had a terrible start but is now approaching an OPS of .800. One can assume he will continue see his numbers will continue to rise.

KRod I can agree with. I thought he was lucky to put up the numbers he did last year. He is so frustrating

 

So we have Prince and CC locked up but how bad with this lineup look without Ramirez and Hart? The rotation would be great but the bullpen would not be good.

[TURBO]

Hart gets too much credit here... He is a Brewer, so we generally like him, but he is not as good as a lot of us here make him out to be.

[Outlander]

Actually Hart is better than most want to give him credit for.

[jjfanec]

Hart gets too much credit here... He is a Brewer, so we generally like him, but he is not as good as a lot of us here make him out to be.

 

2010 - 9th best OPS of all OF in MLB

2011 - 15th best OPS of all OF in MLB

2012 - 28th

 

He is not overrated by people here. I am not a huge Hart fan but you are under-selling him for sure

[monty57]

Any time you extend someone, you're assuming a lot of risk. I generally like extending players, but I think there are two mistakes Melvin sometimes makes in extensions:

 

1) He sometimes waits too late to extend and then has to pay market value for the player as opposed to signing the player when they still have mulitple years before free agency (more risk on the player means less money as the team assumes the risk). There's a lot more risk in extending pre-arby guys, but that's why you get such a big discount. I think there's less risk in Lucroy flopping and the club being out something like $13MM over five years as opposed to Weeks flopping and the club being out $30-40MM. In addition to the pre-arby guys, if he wanted to extend Greinke or Marcum, he should've done it the day the trades were made and they had two years of "risk" before they became free agents.

 

2) He needs to figure out who the "core" guys are and only offer extensions to them. Just because someone like Prince turns you down doesn't mean you have to make an offer to Casey McGehee. We got very fortunate that he turned Melvin down. Most players aren't "core" players. We need to build a farm so that when "non-core" guys get close to free agency we have the ability to trade them away and replace them with a rookie playing for league-minimum. Trading the "non-core" MLB player gives us a less expensive MLB squad with more financial flexibility allowing for us to maintain our core, and it re-stocks the farm.

 

The mess we're in now is due to (for lack of a better word) greed. We had a good MLB team capable of contending for the division every year and a decent farm system. Instead of "settling" for being in the playoff race some years (when we trade "non-core"/blocked minor leaguers for MLB upgrades) and out if it others (when we trade MLB guys for minor leaguers), we decided we needed to go "all in."

 

When you go "all in," you not only trade away minor leaguers, but you also need to keep all your current talent so you extend guys like Weeks to market-value deals, and you pay top dollar for free agents. This depletes your farm (no cheap talent coming up), blocks prospects who could be starting for league minimum (Green, Schafer) and financially handcuffs you with big guaranteed contracts.

[Funketown]

I think you're seriously overestimating what can be done with $10M a year. Andre Ethier just got $17 mil over 5 years. Michael Cuddyer got $10.5 mil for 3 seasons.

[Bombers]

Any time you extend someone, you're assuming a lot of risk. I generally like extending players, but I think there are two mistakes Melvin sometimes makes in extensions:

 

1) He sometimes waits too late to extend and then has to pay market value for the player as opposed to signing the player when they still have mulitple years before free agency (more risk on the player means less money as the team assumes the risk). There's a lot more risk in extending pre-arby guys, but that's why you get such a big discount. I think there's less risk in Lucroy flopping and the club being out something like $13MM over five years as opposed to Weeks flopping and the club being out $30-40MM. In addition to the pre-arby guys, if he wanted to extend Greinke or Marcum, he should've done it the day the trades were made and they had two years of "risk" before they became free agents.

 

2) He needs to figure out who the "core" guys are and only offer extensions to them. Just because someone like Prince turns you down doesn't mean you have to make an offer to Casey McGehee. We got very fortunate that he turned Melvin down. Most players aren't "core" players. We need to build a farm so that when "non-core" guys get close to free agency we have the ability to trade them away and replace them with a rookie playing for league-minimum. Trading the "non-core" MLB player gives us a less expensive MLB squad with more financial flexibility allowing for us to maintain our core, and it re-stocks the farm.

 

The mess we're in now is due to (for lack of a better word) greed. We had a good MLB team capable of contending for the division every year and a decent farm system. Instead of "settling" for being in the playoff race some years (when we trade "non-core"/blocked minor leaguers for MLB upgrades) and out if it others (when we trade MLB guys for minor leaguers), we decided we needed to go "all in."

 

When you go "all in," you not only trade away minor leaguers, but you also need to keep all your current talent so you extend guys like Weeks to market-value deals, and you pay top dollar for free agents. This depletes your farm (no cheap talent coming up), blocks prospects who could be starting for league minimum (Green, Schafer) and financially handcuffs you with big guaranteed contracts.

 

I agree with all of this. I would prefer the Brewers going the route of securing the great players and combining them with the unproven minor leaguers than what we currently have.

[monty57]

I think you're seriously overestimating what can be done with $10M a year. Andre Ethier just got $17 mil over 5 years. Michael Cuddyer got $10.5 mil for 3 seasons.

 

Right, which is why having so much money already committed and still having so many holes to fill will make next year pretty ugly unless we are able to sell this year and get some good pre-arby guys to fill some of those holes. The thought of picking up a couple of starting pitchers, a bullpen and a shortstop in free agency isn't going to happen.

 

Just a guess, but we probably have something like $20MM to fill around 10 holes on the roster without many good pre-arby guys to help out. If we don't sell this year, get ready for another year of Cody Ransom/Cesar Izturis/Edwin Maysonet-type players getting way too much playing time.

[3and2Fastball]

Generally speaking I would rather spend $25 million a year on a super star than on 2 very good player, but is a real roll of the dice. What if the star gets injured then you are out of it.... but if you don't have the star players you likely aren't going far in the playoffs or even make the playoffs (that was the whole point of trading for Greinke)

 

Sabathia is an excellent example of a player that you overpay for, he doesn't get hurt and he's a great pitcher. The thing is, I don't believe the "we coulda just spent that money on Sabathia" because as others here have mentioned: the Yankees would have just upped their offer if the Brewers matched it. The Yankees were gonna sign Sabathia no matter what

 

Josh Hamilton is an example of way too risky a move. Would you rather spend $25 million on Josh Hamilton or on Weeks & Hart? Sure in one year thats an easy call. But you can't spend $25 million on Josh Hamilton, that isn't an option. You'd have to spend at least $200 million over 8 years on a guy who gets hurt a lot....

 

I think the way for the Brewers to contend is to develop their farm system, extend their best players and make smart deadline trades that help the team....

 

That plan, that way of doing things, almost got them into the World Series last year. They were a Shaun Marcum meltdown away (or I spose you could even say an Atlanta Braves meltdown away!) from winning the National League pennant....

 

I can criticize Doug Melvin night & day along with everyone else but I think in terms of the bigger picture he's going about it the right way. It is the minutiae I disagree with (for instance I think it was a Furcal race to the pennant, whoever traded for Furcal wins....)

[adambr2]

Depends what you're using that $10M for. If you don't develop your own farm and constantly use your prospects as currency to acquire proven MLB talent, then you're right, $10M will not take you very far at all in free agency.

 

If you be patient and build from within and develop your own players, $10M will potentially get you two young very solid pre-arby starters, a All-Star caliber first year arby player, and a MVP caliber second year arby player.

[RockCoCougars]

Actually Hart is better than most want to give him credit for.

 

Strongly agreed. He is always at the top of the 'trade him' discussions, but he's been a good one (and not as bad a defensive RF as some make him out to be either).

 

You seem to be advocating a scrubs and studs approach, which can work but is most certainly not the only option.

 

Never heard this term used before, but I like it. It's going to be my new battle cry in advocating a Greinke signing.

[logan82]

Never heard this term used before, but I like it. It's going to be my new battle cry in advocating a Greinke signing.

This is possibly the origin.

[brettac1]

The term has also been used for several years in fantasy baseball, particularly in auction leagues.

[splitterpfj]

I would have done the deals with Hart and Weeks in a minute.

 

Wolf, and Aramis, are both examples of what often happens when you fill holes through free agency...you overpay.

 

K-Rod - I don't think the team had any intention of him being here this year, they offered arbitration, to get draft picks...and SURPRISE, he accepted.

 

CC chose to leave, and that's just the way it is. Prince hired Scott Boras after the team drafted him, and that's just the way it is. Either of these two players would have gotten more money than they'll ever spend if they had stayed in Milwaukee, but they decided to go.

 

Right now, it's frustrating because things aren't working, but extending the home grown talent, as they've done with Hart, Weeks, Gallardo and Lucroy...keeps proven major league talent at a price that doesn't crush the franchise. It's the Wolf, Suppan, Aramis level contracts that really bring risk, because the price is inflated and the player is past his prime.

[logan82]

I don't think Wolf was a really bad deal either. It looks kind of bad this year but the first 2 years he was very productive.

[RockCoCougars]

I can't speak out against the Weeks deal because I was on board big time. I thought that they got a bargain. Obviously, I was good with Hart as well.

 

I was big time against the Wolf deal, but that one turned out OK. I wasn't a fan of the Ramirez deal either, but time will tell.

 

In my view, outside of Soup, Melvin's biggest money wasters have been on the bullpen. Gagne, K-Rod, 3 years for Riske, with a buyout.... are you kidding me? Not huge money, but kind of like a rapper lighting a cigar with a hundred dollar bill. Foolish. He also dodged a bullet thanks to Cordero's greed.

[chadomac]

Wolf has been worth his contract even if he ends up not pitching that well this year. The KRod thing was a mistake for sure but I don't think it was easy to see coming. The Weeks thing I can't explain but I can say that I would've done the same thing if I was GM back when that extension was signed. I still think he will be productive for most of his contract.

 

Hart is UNDERrated by most of brewerfan, even though I'm not a fan of his RF'ing.

 

I guess the only thing I agree with is Ramirez... I don't think that's going to be a good deal for us, mostly because of the third year. I also see him moving over to 1B by the end of the deal.

[Dragonbait]

Well does Hart's value go up or down with him playing more 1st base and getting more versitile?

[splitterpfj]

Hart can play first, left or right, his value is that he is a good, productive player who's not past his prime. It all depends on what position the other team needs, and how badly they think they need it.

 

The Brewers have no business trading Corey Hart, he's a good, productive player. The only way you do that is if you go into a complete rebuild, which would surrender at least one season prior to Opening Day...honestly, I don't think Mr Attanasio has that in him.

[JohnBriggs12]

I think most of you are missing the point of the original poster. His point isn't that those contracts are all that bad in comparison with others in that price range, but that it can be a waste of money to pay those types of salaries for basically average major league production and that money could be better spent locking up true stars of the game (Fielder and CC), and investing in player development. There are cheaper alternatives for average major league production.

 

Ramirez isn't a bad player. He is still a solid player. But he's not a star nor a difference maker and he carries an age/injury risk. Weeks was given a pretty good contract despite a history of injuries, and uneven production below what many had projected for him as the 2nd player taken in the draft. Wolf's deal at the time made sense. The team lacked starting pitching. But once Grienke and Marcum were added, they could have shopped Wolf for younger players and given themselves available money for other needs.

[HiAndTight]

Hart gets too much credit here... He is a Brewer, so we generally like him, but he is not as good as a lot of us here make him out to be.

 

 

 

As someome who's wanted to and argued for dealing Hart for years, I don't know how you can say that. He's just so clearly not given too much credit. Look at the numbers he's put up? If you're putting up 4-5 WAR and you get very little mention or very little play, I don't see how you can say he's getting TOO much credit.

[HiAndTight]

I think most of you are missing the point of the original poster. His point isn't that those contracts are all that bad in comparison with others in that price range, but that it can be a waste of money to pay those types of salaries for basically average major league production and that money could be better spent locking up true stars of the game (Fielder and CC), and investing in player development. There are cheaper alternatives for average major league production.

 

Ramirez isn't a bad player. He is still a solid player. But he's not a star nor a difference maker and he carries an age/injury risk. Weeks was given a pretty good contract despite a history of injuries, and uneven production below what many had projected for him as the 2nd player taken in the draft. Wolf's deal at the time made sense. The team lacked starting pitching. But once Grienke and Marcum were added, they could have shopped Wolf for younger players and given themselves available money for other needs.

 

 

And he PROBABLY picked the worst times in each players collective careers just about in order to make such a point. The fact of the matter is, those aren't "average" players, those are well above average players. To a man.

 

 

I apologize in advance, but it's just utterly ignorant to go through a teams roster, look at who happens to be struggling the worst at the time and say, "see, if we just didn't sign those players, we could have kept two really good players." ONE of which is in year ONE of his near contract and you would almost CERTAINLY be complaining about in years 3 and 4 because of his defense or whatever. And what's more, would likely NOT be complaining about if Gamel hadn't gotten hurt.

Same goes for Gonzalez.

 

And you know what? We could have signed Prince. Add one more gaping hole to our current roster but add Prince..and I suspect the difference between 1st this year and 1st last year won't be as significant as you seem to think.

 

Sabathia was never coming here. The Yankees were always going to up the price. They were going to give him a deal that would cripple the Brewers if that is what they needed to do...and it resulted in a WS win for them.

 

And the next test will be Greinke. And the Brewers CAN afford him regardless of those contracts.

 

 

One last comment I'll add, your comment about "dusting off," those minor league players...what the hell are we doing right now? They've been fully dusted. What's that doing for us?

 

It's just an annoying post because it shows how quickly we can forget a players contributions during a slump and just play totally dumb by citing them at their lowest points.

[Bombers]

I think most of you are missing the point of the original poster. His point isn't that those contracts are all that bad in comparison with others in that price range, but that it can be a waste of money to pay those types of salaries for basically average major league production and that money could be better spent locking up true stars of the game (Fielder and CC), and investing in player development. There are cheaper alternatives for average major league production.

 

Ramirez isn't a bad player. He is still a solid player. But he's not a star nor a difference maker and he carries an age/injury risk. Weeks was given a pretty good contract despite a history of injuries, and uneven production below what many had projected for him as the 2nd player taken in the draft. Wolf's deal at the time made sense. The team lacked starting pitching. But once Grienke and Marcum were added, they could have shopped Wolf for younger players and given themselves available money for other needs.

 

This is exactly what I am saying. Thank you for posting JB12. Sure these players are productive. No doubt. But I think the Brewers are better off locking up true stars and spending this other money elsewhere.

 

And he PROBABLY picked the worst times in each players collective careers just about in order to make such a point. The fact of the matter is, those aren't "average" players, those are well above average players. To a man.

 

 

I apologize in advance, but it's just utterly ignorant to go through a teams roster, look at who happens to be struggling the worst at the time and say, "see, if we just didn't sign those players, we could have kept two really good players." ONE of which is in year ONE of his near contract and you would almost CERTAINLY be complaining about in years 3 and 4 because of his defense or whatever. And what's more, would likely NOT be complaining about if Gamel hadn't gotten hurt.

Same goes for Gonzalez.

 

And you know what? We could have signed Prince. Add one more gaping hole to our current roster but add Prince..and I suspect the difference between 1st this year and 1st last year won't be as significant as you seem to think.

 

Sabathia was never coming here. The Yankees were always going to up the price. They were going to give him a deal that would cripple the Brewers if that is what they needed to do...and it resulted in a WS win for them.

 

And the next test will be Greinke. And the Brewers CAN afford him regardless of those contracts.

 

 

One last comment I'll add, your comment about "dusting off," those minor league players...what the hell are we doing right now? They've been fully dusted. What's that doing for us?

 

It's just an annoying post because it shows how quickly we can forget a players contributions during a slump and just play totally dumb by citing them at their lowest points.

 

Right because Weeks made such huge contributions last year. Oh right, when we needed him he was .... hurt. Awesome. He has 49 post season at bats with a .133 average. I didn't like the Weeks contract when we gave it to him and I sure as heck do not like it now. So yes when he has the WORST BA in the majors I am going to call him out. Back to the title, WASTED MONEY!

 

Hart. I like Hart, I just think it is tough for the Brewers to sign any outfielder when your left fielder is your best player and signed forever. Signing Hart really hampers the ability to bring up a succedding minor league outfielder. So can this be classified as wasted money, potentially. It isn't bad money as he is productive but to me, I just wonder if a Schafer / Gindl type could put up ok numbers. Then we got Aoki and he is productive. Might have been able to spend that money elsewhere.

 

Ramirez - Really wasn't a fan of it at the time. I think he will fall into the Hart category, while productive, could a Taylor Green (given full playing time) or a Jerry Hairston been a better fit. Based on money, I think we all wish we had Jerry over A-ram.

 

Wolf - I was good with the signing at the time, knowing this year probably would suck. He has been productive, and it's kind of what the Brewers get for having no minor league pitchers to pull from. Going forward, I would prefer not to have to stick $30 some million dollars into a #4 pitcher. I would rather give that money to our top end of the rotation. So could it go into Wasted money?

 

K-Rod - Brewers got a little bit screwed here. Maybe Doug should have done his homework a little better? I don't know. Sucks to get stuck with this contract and have him play bad. But this goes into Wasted Money as he isn't productive, and costs a lot.