Sporting News All-Time Brewers by Position

[The stache]

Vuke had a 2.5 WAR when he won it. The same season, Dave Stieb's WAR was 7.3. 17-14, 3.25 ERA, 141 K to 75 BB, a 1.20 WHIP. Still not great.

 

There's no really great pitching performances in 1982, at least in the American League. Baseball writers can whine about Vuke getting it. I would ask, who deserved it then? Jim Palmer, the runner up? 15-5, 3.13 ERA, 103 K, a 1.137 WHIP. Is that a Cy Young season?

[Outlander]

I certainly wouldn't take Jenkins over either of those two. Hart's a lot closer, but I'd still stand behind those two.

 

Why not? I never understood why people thought Thomas was good, I do like Oglivie though.

[Funketown]

I was also surprised to see both how unimpressive Vuckovich was that season and how unimpressive the top pitching performers in the AL were that season. If I had to cast a ballot as a 1982 baseball writer, I would have gone:

 

1. Dave Stieb (288 IP, 3.25 ERA), 2. Rick Sutcliffe (216 IP, 2.96 ERA), 3. Dan Petry (246 IP, 3.22 ERA), 4. Jim Palmer (227 IP, 3.13 ERA), 5. Pete Vuckovich (223 IP, 3.34 ERA)

 

This list just goes to show how brutal the dark ages were for the Brewers. I can't imagine almost any other team in existence since 1970 would have an all-time greats list littered with so many guys who probably wouldn't even qualify for my distinguished "Hall of Very Good". Oh well. As for the list, here's what I've got:

 

C - Surhoff

1B - Cooper

2B - Weeks

SS - Yount

3B - Molitor

LF - Braun

CF - Thomas

RF - Oglivie

DH - Fielder

 

SP1 - SP5: Sheets, Higuera, Bosio, Gallardo, Haas

RP: Fingers (CL), Axford (SU), Turnbow (Comic)

 

It would be cool to see what would happen if somebody made teams of the all time greats of all 30 teams and then simulated a season. Obviously the older teams would clean up, and with the Reds, Cardinals, Pirates, and Cubs in the 5 team 2013 NL Central I imagine the Brewers would struggle to crack 65 wins.

[JohnBriggs12]

I love Cooper and think he was one of the most underrated players of all time, but I'd still take Prince over him. I'd take Gantner over Weeks and I'd put Cirillo at 3B and Molitor at DH. Forget the numbers, anyone that watched Gantner and Weeks knows Gantner was the better player. Gantner struck out once every 12 AB. He had the misfortune of being a contemporary of Frank White or he'd have won a few gold gloves too.

 

I'd also take Jenkins over Oglivie. Oglivie was often platooned and no better than the 5th or 6th best player in the lineup.

 

Catcher is a real weak spot. Simmons really was lousy in 81 and 84 and that's 40% of his time in Milwaukee. Had Surhoff caught more his last 2-3 years, I'd take him.

[Baldkin]

Forget the numbers, anyone that watched Gantner and Weeks knows Gantner was the better player. Gantner struck out once every 12 AB. He had the misfortune of being a contemporary of Frank White or he'd have won a few gold gloves too.

 

I watched both of them, and Weeks is such a superior player that it's not even funny.

 

I know you think that strikeouts are the single worst thing a player can do (were you really terrible in little league or something?) but they are no different than any other out.

 

Anyway. I'd put Molitor at 2B, Cirillo at 3B, and Prince at DH, with Coop at 1B.

 

I know that '82 team was loved, but I think there's some debate to be had between Darryl Hamilton and Gorman in CF.

[RockCoCougars]

I watched both of them, and Weeks is such a superior player that it's not even funny.

 

I disagree strongly. Weeks has Gantner on power and walking, that's it. Though he had Jamey Carroll power, Gantner was far more consistent at the plate- almost never struck out (Weeks K's this season would account for 15% of Gantner's career total). I'd also say that he was a better fielder. Gantner was also a guy with intangibles that help a team win. More specifically, Weeks has more brain farts in a week than Gantner had in a year. Like most of the 'Glory Era' Brewers, Gumby started to hit the wall a bit in the mid 80's, and also was never the same after getting roll-blocked by Marcus Lawton in '89.

[Baldkin]

I watched both of them, and Weeks is such a superior player that it's not even funny.

 

I disagree strongly. Weeks has Gantner on power and walking, that's it.

 

In '89 he was 36, I don't think the injury was as much the problem as being old was.

 

Career wRC+: Weeks: 111 (that's 11% better than league average), Ganter: 87 (13% worse than league average). Implying they are even in the same stratosphere as hitters is simply not true.

 

I might even take Don Money over both of 'em.

[RockCoCougars]

I might even take Don Money over both of 'em.

 

You have a point there. I'd think long and hard about it, but I don't think Money played 2nd for long. I believe that he got bumped to 3rd for Pedro Garcia, then back to 2nd for Bando, then back to 3rd for Molitor... then to DH by Molitor after the Molitor in CF experiment didn't take. Money definitely has a spot on the all time team, but I'm not sure where... probably the utility guy.

[FVBrewerFan]

Anyway. I'd put Molitor at 2B, Cirillo at 3B, and Prince at DH, with Coop at 1B.

 

 

2nd vote here for this IF.

[HiAndTight]

I certainly wouldn't take Jenkins over either of those two. Hart's a lot closer, but I'd still stand behind those two.

 

Why not? I never understood why people thought Thomas was good, I do like Oglivie though.

 

 

He was a CF'er with a wOBA of .341, hit 45, 38, 21(strike year), 39 and 22 WAR from '78 to '82, the Brewers heyday.

 

I don't know what CF'er the Brewers have ever had that has matched that if you're going to use Yount at SS.

[HiAndTight]

I watched both of them, and Weeks is such a superior player that it's not even funny.

 

I disagree strongly. Weeks has Gantner on power and walking, that's it. Though he had Jamey Carroll power, Gantner was far more consistent at the plate- almost never struck out (Weeks K's this season would account for 15% of Gantner's career total). I'd also say that he was a better fielder. Gantner was also a guy with intangibles that help a team win. More specifically, Weeks has more brain farts in a week than Gantner had in a year. Like most of the 'Glory Era' Brewers, Gumby started to hit the wall a bit in the mid 80's, and also was never the same after getting roll-blocked by Marcus Lawton in '89.

 

 

So you don't care that Gantner contributed significantly more outs, just that they didn't happen as a result of a strikeout?

 

And Gantner was a good defensive player. But he had ONE season with a WAR above 3.0. Weeks at 29 already has 3 in the last 5 years, and was well on his way to his 4th when he played 37 games with a 1.4 and had a .365 wOBA. A number he's approached or equaled 4 times. Gantner's career BEST was .322. Career wise it's .301 vs .345 in favor of Weeks.

 

He was simply just a superior player without any question and if not for a terrible 2 month long struggle where he's STILL managed to maintain an OBP only .17 below Gantner's career line of .317.

 

So Gantner was a terrible offensive player and a solid defender. Not close to Weeks. If you want to put Molitor and Money at 2nd and 3rd, then fine. But not in favor of Gantner.

 

 

 

With regard to Hamilton vs Thomas, Thomas had a WAR of 22 from 78 to 82 for the Brewers.

 

Hamilton's career WAR for the Brewers was 11.1. Not much of a discussion for me. Not when Brady Clark is only one season away from matching Hamilton in 2 fewer years(about 4.0 WAR), or when Gomez and Morgan put up over half that in one season of a platoon in CF.

 

I don't see a CF'er that's been that close to Thomas other than Yount, though..again, SS(and Yount was really a terrible defensive CF'er).

[RockCoCougars]

So Gantner was a terrible offensive player and a solid defender. Not close to Weeks. If you want to put Molitor and Money at 2nd and 3rd, then fine. But not in favor of Gantner

 

I disagree strongly that Gantner was terrible offensively. Especially back in the 'glory days'. You have to remember that back then, many second basemen didn't hit for squat. I'd bet that Gantner was above average as a 2b at the plate. He was an eight hitter for the most part and a strong up the middle defender. He was fine for that lineup... he didn't need to do much with everyone else there, he put the ball in play and made things happen for the top of the lineup. Seriously, who would you rather have put down a bunt or move a runner over, Gantner or Weeks? I think that one of the problems with Gantner's perception is that people remember his later years where he wasn't as good at the plate with absolutely no power. At the same time, he was pretty good during his prime. As for Weeks, he's had 2.5 good seasons so far. That's not enough for me to put him ahead of Gantner yet. If he remembers how to play again and has a few decent years, then I'll do so.

[gregmag]

But I'd rather have a guy who can hit for power and get on base than one who can put down a bunt or move runners over. Gantner was a "small ball" player because that's all he could do; to say "he was fine for that lineup" is just a polite way of saying that most of the rest of the lineup was good and he wasn't. Yes, he put the ball in play -- weakly, most of the time -- and then he didn't do much of anything, because not only wasn't he a good hitter but he wasn't fast. He was a bad hitter before his modest two-year peak and a bad hitter afterwards. He was a better fielder than Weeks when he was young, and he was a lot better at staying healthy, but unfortunately in his case staying healthy was bad for the team, because the Brewers after 1983 really could have used a 2b who did something well. Keeping him around was the ultimate in late Dalton / Selig laziness.