Sporting News All-Time Brewers by Position

[crossface21]

* C Ted Simmons

* 1B Cecil Cooper

* 2B Rickie Weeks

* SS Robin Yount

* OF Ryan Braun

* OF Gorman Thomas

* OF Ben Oglivie

* DH Jeromy Burnitz

* SP Teddy Higuera

* SP Ben Sheets

* SP Mike Caldwell

* SP Jim Slaton

* SP CC Sabathia

* Closer Rollie Fingers

* Manager George Bamberger

 

This was from the jsonline. They forgot to put in whoever was at 3B, but I'll assume that it was Molitor.

[RockCoCougars]

I'd go Gantner over Weeks and Haas over Sabathia for sure. Probably Plesac over Fingers as closer, I'd also probably put Molitor at DH and Money at 3rd, or George Scott at DH and Molitor at 3rd with Money on 2nd (bumping Gantner). Simmons usually gets the all time catcher nod almost by default. He didn't catch much for the Brewers after the first few years and wasn't good defensively. I believe that his best offensive season in Milwaukee, he was mostly a DH. That said, most of the catchers before and since weren't very good and/or didn't have a long shelf life.

[TURBO]

No Gantner at 2B?

 

Loved that guy!

 

If it is based on anyone who ever wore the uniform, CC has to be in there. I don't think longevity was a factor.

[Invader3K]

Cooper over Fielder? Not sure on that one.

[RockCoCougars]

Somehow, I forgot Prince also. I'd still put Coop ahead of him at first, but Prince is the DH for sure.

[craigharmann]

No Branyan??? The injustice of it all!!

[Tedaldtada]

I would take Prince over Burnitz. Did they just forget about him or something?

 

I also think Yo should factor in somewhere.

[3and2Fastball]

I'd have to take Prince and his 143 OPS+ and 228 HR's in 6 seasons over Cooper. Maybe if Cooper was lights out in the postseason for the Brewers I'd think differently but he was an even worse postseason hitter than Prince Hitter.

[TURBO]

How in the world did I not see the omission of Prince?

 

Yeah, he'd have to be at least DH.

[3and2Fastball]

I think I'd want the 1982 Cy Young award winner Pete Vuckovich somewhere in my rotation, probably over Caldwell

[dlk9s]

No Prince is insane. I'm cool with Cooper at 1st, but to then not put Prince at DH is lunacy.

[Outlander]

Jenkins over either Thomas or Oglivie, maybe even take Hart over them.

[gregmag]

I agree about Prince over Burnitz.

 

The big mistake on the list, for me, is Slaton. Just to use WAR as a starting point, here are three Brewers pitchers' career numbers:

 

Pitcher A: 9 seasons, 12.6 WAR

Pitcher B: 6 seasons, 14.3 WAR

Pitcher C: 7 seasons, 22.7 WAR

 

Unless you think WAR is basically a dartboard, pitcher C establishes a strong initial case for being substantially better than the other two and a darn good pitcher. Pitcher A looks very much like the worst of the three.

 

Pitcher A is Jim Slaton. In fairness, Fangraphs doesn't have WAR for his first three seasons (1971-1973), but he was nothing special in those years; I don't think they would help his per season average.

 

Pitcher B is Yo Gallardo.

 

Pitcher C is Chris Bosio. I looked at Brewers pitchers a while back, and I concluded that, if you put Sabathia in a special "freak of history" category, the top three were pretty clearly Higuera, Sheets, and Bosio. I think Bosio may be one of the most underrated Brewers ever. He was very good for quite a while. His rep takes a hit from his 5.24 ERA in the storied '87 season, his first full year. But Fangraphs chalks that ERA up to monumentally bad luck: they credit him with 4.1 WAR that year off a 3.38 FIP. That seemingly generous judgment gains credibility from the fact that Bosio's FIP and ERA barely diverged after that.

 

Another guy who can make a strong case for the team is Geoff Jenkins. In ten seasons, Jenkins put up 26.9 WAR; in nine seasons, Ben Oglivie put up 24.1 WAR. That's almost a dead heat. In ten seasons, Gorman Thomas put up 22.7 WAR (that doesn't include 1983 or 1986, but at a glance his time with the Brewers in those seasons appears to yield very close to nothing). If you want to be strict about distinguishing CF from the corners, which we probably should be, then Thomas deserves his spot. But Jenkins vs. Oglivie is a great argument.

[RockCoCougars]

Bosio was good for sure. In his best seasons, he was overshadowed by guys like Higuera and later Eldred. I seem to remember one long losing streak (88 I think) that likely dinged some of his stats somewhat. All that said, I have to go with Caldwell as #3 behind Higuera and Sheeter, who I see as 1a and 1b. Caldwell was definitely the stopper on those Bambi's Bombers teams, and he would have won the Cy Young in '78 had Guidry not pitched out of his mind. Caldwell was the king of the 9 or 10 hit shutout type games, likely hurting his stats, but he was an absolute warrior on the mound. The problem with him is that he lost it almost as quickly as he found it. I'm still a tad partial to Moose Haas as my number 4 over Bosio, but it's pretty much a toss up. As for OF, I was a big Jenkins guy. If we are taking just three outfielders as it appears with having both Braun and Oglivie, than I keep things as they are. On the other hand if we need a RF, Burnitz is probably the guy.

[brewmann04]

just a quick question the age of the fans in this thread because Gantner is over Weeks big time and Need to put Molly in there and Prince over Burnitz

[berniebrewer4life]

I think I'd want the 1982 Cy Young award winner Pete Vuckovich somewhere in my rotation, probably over Caldwell

 

This. I realized he only had two years with us that were really good, but he won the CY YOUNG in one of those years. That deserves at least the 5th spot.

[gregmag]

I say this respectfully and as a fully qualified old guy: Vuckovich's Cy Young season was one of the worst years ever posted by a player who won a major award. He was a decent pitcher in 1981 and 1982 whose record was inflated by a great offense; after that he was fodder. He was actually a better pitcher earlier in his career, with the Cardinals.

 

Caldwell was magnificent for two seasons; he definitely belongs in the discussion. Haas was a very good pitcher, much better than Slaton IMHO. The J-S selection of Slaton really has me shaking my head. I'd say the top ten looks something like this (again, leaving out Sabathia because I don't really know how to rank him):

 

Higuera (29.6 WAR/10 seasons)

Sheets (31.1/8)

Bosio (22.7/7)

Caldwell (16.6/7)

Haas (22.8/10)

Lary Sorensen (13.2/4)

Gallardo (14.3/6)

Jaime Navarro (15.7/6)

Doug Davis (10.8 WAR in 3 years, not counting one very good and one very bad partial season)

Ben McDonald (7.9/2)

Don Sutton (6.9/2, plus spare change for 1982)

 

So that's actually 11. Then you get to guys like Bill Wegman (16.7/11), Slaton (12.6/9), and Eldred (11.6/9) -- guys who stuck around for a long time and ate innings with a very good year or two sprinkled in. Then you get to guys like Jim Colborn, Vuckovich, Scott Karl, Steve Woodard, and Ricky Bones, who did roughly the same thing but didn't stick around as long.

 

Obviously WAR isn't the be-all and end-all, for all kinds of reasons, and I don't mean to use it as such. In discussions like this you always have to argue about peak vs. longevity. I rate Higuera over Sheets because Teddy's injury decline years deflate his numbers, but it's very close. There's a big gulf between the top two and Bosio and then between Bosio and the pack. I rate Caldwell over Haas because of Caldwell's great peak and Haas over Sorensen because of longevity, but for me those three guys are about even. I had forgotten how good Sorensen was, and Navarro looks a lot better than I thought when you put his numbers in context.

 

BTW, not until I flipped through old team lists to write this post did I realize that the Brewers had Bob Gibson, Kevin Brown, and C(h)ris Carpenter.

[torts]

* C Ted Simmons

* 1B Cecil Cooper

* 2B Rickie Weeks

* SS Robin Yount

* OF Ryan Braun

* OF Gorman Thomas

* OF Ben Oglivie

* DH Jeromy Burnitz

* SP Teddy Higuera

* SP Ben Sheets

* SP Mike Caldwell

* SP Jim Slaton

* SP CC Sabathia

* Closer Rollie Fingers

* Manager George Bamberger

 

This was from the jsonline. They forgot to put in whoever was at 3B, but I'll assume that it was Molitor.

 

LOL at the idea that Burnitz is anywhere on this roster with no Prince Fielder. you could put either Cooper/Fielder at 1B/DH, especially if Braun is going to be on this.

[Oldcity]

Gantner over Weeks would be hilariously bad. Ganter has a career OPS+ of 88. He was over 100 exactly one time in his career. Weeks already has four seasons better than Gantner's best.

[RockCoCougars]

Weeks hasn't eclipsed Gumby yet, and I would have said that even before this year's debacle. If Rickie remembers how to hit for the rest of his contract, he's going to catch him, but to this point, he's really only had 2.5 good seasons. As for Vuke, he really only pitched for the Brewers for about 2 seasons and change. Those two were very good seasons, especially considering W/L, but they were not great enough to propel him into the Top 5 in franchise history.

[topper09er]

I say this respectfully and as a fully qualified old guy: Vuckovich's Cy Young season was one of the worst years ever posted by a player who won a major award.

 

Bill James called it the worst Cy Young selection of all time.

 

Vuck's best career achievement was leading the league in nose hair as Clu Haywood, not winning the 82 Cy Young on the back of Harvey's Wallbanging offense.

[gregmag]

Gantner over Weeks would be hilariously bad. Ganter has a career OPS+ of 88. He was over 100 exactly one time in his career. Weeks already has four seasons better than Gantner's best.

This is another fun argument, and I strongly agree with Oldcity. Gantner was a good player in 1982 and very good in 1983, but that's basically it for his usefulness. He just stuck around for a very long time, hurting the team for much of his career and riding Yount's and Molitor's coattails to semi-immortality. Weeks is a controversial player around here, given his lowish BA and high strikeouts even when he's good, and of course this is the worst possible moment to be nominating him for glory. But Weeks has done a lot more to help his teams win than Gantner did.

[The stache]

Good God, I've never really looked at Vuke's Cy Young season.

 

His WHIP was 1.502, and his K:BB ratio was awful. 105 K, 102 BB. Really? That's a Cy Young winner? A 3.34 ERA's not bad, but he won it because of his W-L. He won 18 games because of the bats.

[HiAndTight]

Jenkins over either Thomas or Oglivie, maybe even take Hart over them.

 

 

I certainly wouldn't take Jenkins over either of those two. Hart's a lot closer, but I'd still stand behind those two.

 

I think Greinke should be in the rotation. I wouldn't put Vook in there just because he won a Cy Yong. He won a Cy Young because he was on the best team and won a lot of games.

 

At closer, it absolutely has to be Fingers. The Brewers have had 4 MVP seasons now, two by Yount, Braun and then Fingers. That's impressive.

 

And I have to go with Rickie Weeks. Aside from Weeks being a great guy and Gantner being literally one of the most arrogant and obnoxious human beings I've ever encountered, Gantner was just an overrated player. Weeks is about 6 WAR behind Gantner for his career. I'm pretty sure at 29, even as much as he's struggling, he'll easily surpass him. Plus a career .301 wOBA vs Weeks .346. I don't think they really compare unless you put too much on this season, a season in which he's had two bad weeks.

 

So obviously Molitor was an omission, Prince was a brain fart..unless he doesn't qualify because he played so few games there.

 

And I'm not sure about CC, but Greinke is on my list somewhere, and I hope he ends up a clear cut #1 after re-signing! Then it'll be Greinke/Tedd/Sheeter/

[berniebrewer4life]

Good God, I've never really looked at Vuke's Cy Young season.

 

His WHIP was 1.502, and his K:BB ratio was awful. 105 K, 102 BB. Really? That's a Cy Young winner? A 3.34 ERA's not bad, but he won it because of his W-L. He won 18 games because of the bats.

 

Dear lord, i retract my statement about him being on the team. My next question is, how bad was the rest of the league?