Offensive starting catcher vs. defensive starting catcher

[adambr2]

With Maldanado getting some starts behind the plate now and looking very strong defensively as he's known for, but offering little with the bat, I'm curious as to what people prefer in a starting catcher and how much one really offsets the other.

 

Would you rather have a starting catcher who is in the top 5 in MLB defensively, with all-around skills in ball blocking, throwing out runners, etc, but with a weak .225 batting average and probably a .650 OPS ceiling?

 

Or would you prefer the strong bat catcher who will give you an .800+ OPS but be among the bottom 5 in the MLB defensively?

 

Fortunately this is really nothing more than hypothetical for us, as our starting catcher of the present and future Lucroy offers us a little of both -- he's an .800 OPS guy but also offers respectable, though not elite, defense.

[3and2Fastball]

I'd rather have Maldonado starting (if he can hit .225 that is) and find another position for Lucroy, who could likely be a .310/.375 hitter every year if he only had to catch once every five days.

 

I think a great defensive catcher makes a huge difference over the course of a game and a season. An easy recent example would be Yadier Molina, who hit .216/.275 in 2006 for the Cardinals as they won the division and then the World Championship

[RobertR]

I think a great defensive catcher makes a huge difference over the course of a game and a season. An easy recent example would be Yadier Molina, who hit .216/.275 in 2006 for the Cardinals as they won the division and then the World Championship

 

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

 

The 2006 Cardinals also only won 83 games during the regular season. 83 wins will get a team squat this year.

 

Robert

[thablingster]

For me personally it depends on what's around the catcher. I love watching a guy like Henry Blanco or Pudge work behind the plate, but at the same time watching guys like Mauer and McCann hit, hit, and hit is neat, too.

 

If your pitching staff is full of guys who bounce balls, can be a little bit wild, or aren't good at holding runners you'd want the defensive guy, provided your offense could make up for his weak bat or you're comfortable taking him out late for a pinch hitter.

 

If you have a weak offense and a pitching staff that holds runners well and generally keeps the ball around the plate where the catcher doesn't have to do a whole lot having an offense-first guy is fine.

 

In the case of Maldonado and Kottaras since Maldonado is the vastly superior defensive catcher I don't mind him starting the majority of games. It also allows Kottaras to give the team a quality at-bat later in the game, if needed. George is the better offensive player, but I'd guess his value off the bench plus Martin's defensive capabilities would in the long run allow for a better run differential than if it were played the other way around.

[logan82]

Unless the catcher is an absolute hack behind the plate I will take the offense. With the running game in baseball generally not being as important the difference between the elite guys and middle of the road guys on defense is not as important.

[HiAndTight]

I think this is more of a discussion for your backup catcher IMO and one that impacts the same two players who are our catchers right now.

 

I'd rather have MM catching the majority of the games as he's so good out there defensively that it allows Grienke and Yo to feel more comfortable bouncing one up there than if you had Kottaras who is just atrocious at blocking the balls in the dirt.

 

I do wonder just kinda out of nowhere if Lucroy is capable of playing 2nd base for example? If he proves to truly be a guy who can hit .300 or higher, that may be an option down the road(not this year or next, just at some point).

[rluzinski]

While quantifying the value of defense is difficult in general, putting a value on catchers' defense is particularly hard. We can try to estimate the run value of controlling the running game and preventing wild pitches/pass balls, but the rest is pretty un-quantifiable ATM. Fangraph's has some relevant stats:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/defense/catcher-defense/

[Nottso]

Most of the voices in my head say defense. There are a couple of dissenters but the rest of us routinely ignore those two anyways.

[igor67]

I think some of it is just novelty at this point. We've had some OK (Lucroy) to bad defenders for quite some time, so a defensive whiz is kind of exciting, but considering Lucroy is pretty strong at framing and OK to slightly above in others Martin would have to hit pretty well to take a lot of time away. There is a solid argument that he and Kottaras offer similar value, and trying to swap one of them for something else is solid, but you would probably want to figure out how to get another power threat off the bench if that is the case.

[MadScientist]

I guess it depends on which defensive categories we are talking about. There is not likely to be a big difference in catching popups and pouncing on bunts. But there is framing pitches (Lucroy's specialty), throwing out runners, blocking pitches and the ever-popular but nebulous 'handling the pitcher' / 'calling the game'. If the guy is bad at all of them, or so bad at one or more that he looks like a little leaguer, move him from catcher to first base or somewhere else. Otherwise take the offense.

[TooLiveBrew]

Right now, Lucroy as a catcher profiles as the type of player who can grow into a plus hitter for the position. Move him to first base, & he profiles as lg-avg. at best imo. There is nothing to be gained from moving Luc off catcher, and much to be lost.

[mothershipconnection]

You suck quite a bit of value out of Lucroy if you move him from behind the plate. He'd need to have the potential to be a plus defender at another difficult position to make it worthwhile. If his OPS falls down into the .750 range, he's no longer a very hot commodity unless he can play catcher.

 

Sure, if he can OPS .850-.900, and you have any concerns about durability if he remains a C, move him. I just don't think he continues to be as awesome at the plate as he started out this season.

[TheCrew07]

I guess it depends on which defensive categories we are talking about. There is not likely to be a big difference in catching popups and pouncing on bunts. But there is framing pitches (Lucroy's specialty), throwing out runners, blocking pitches and the ever-popular but nebulous 'handling the pitcher' / 'calling the game'. If the guy is bad at all of them, or so bad at one or more that he looks like a little leaguer, move him from catcher to first base or somewhere else. Otherwise take the offense.

 

I'd be curious how much of the game calling is actually done by the catchers now as it appears the majority of pitches are being called by coaches/managers from HS on up these days. If you watch close, the catchers are peaking into the dugout after every pitch, are they looking for a specific sign for some kind of play like a pitch out, or are the pitches being called from the dugout?

[JimH5]

It's fun to have a strong-armed catcher throwing guys out, but I'll take offense over that if I can get it.

 

And I need to have a manager who will play for the big inning when that good hitting catcher is on the team.

[adambr2]

I agree, I don't see any reason to move Lucroy. He has a lot more value with his offensive output as a catcher. Move him to RF, for example, and he's just Corey Hart with bad defense. (No disrespect to Corey, I'm just saying a lot of Lucroy's value is the rare offense he gives from a catcher.) I feel like we have almost been conditioned from the 90's/00's era of bad Brewer catchers to believe that defense is the only thing that matters from a catcher, and anything else is just gravy.

 

Lucroy is only about average defensively but he still can improve. Maldanado profiles as a prototypical defense/little offense backup catcher.

 

Now assuming Lucroy is going to get 1 out of 5 days off catching, if you want to have him starting at 1st every other one of those games so he's playing 140 games instead of 125, I'd be fine with that.

[danzig6767]

I guess it depends on which defensive categories we are talking about. There is not likely to be a big difference in catching popups and pouncing on bunts. But there is framing pitches (Lucroy's specialty), throwing out runners, blocking pitches and the ever-popular but nebulous 'handling the pitcher' / 'calling the game'. If the guy is bad at all of them, or so bad at one or more that he looks like a little leaguer, move him from catcher to first base or somewhere else. Otherwise take the offense.

 

I'd be curious how much of the game calling is actually done by the catchers now as it appears the majority of pitches are being called by coaches/managers from HS on up these days. If you watch close, the catchers are peaking into the dugout after every pitch, are they looking for a specific sign for some kind of play like a pitch out, or are the pitches being called from the dugout?

 

I think catchers look to the dugout for things like a pitch out because in the end, it's the pitcher on the mound who decides what pitch he wants to throw.

[jerichoholicninja]

 

I think catchers look to the dugout for things like a pitch out because in the end, it's the pitcher on the mound who decides what pitch he wants to throw.

 

Depends. Some managers want to control everything, including pitches.

[3and2Fastball]

I don't think it is too much of a stretch of the imagination to say that the Brewers wouldn't have won today's game if someone other than Maldonado was behind the plate. How many breaking balls in the dirt did he block?

[igor67]

I think it's fair to say that if Maldanado keeps smacking clutch HRs at his current rate and taking his walks that changes some things. His record doesn't indicate he should provide that much offense, but I'll certainly take it right now. Casey had two whole years before he turned back into a pumpkin. In back-up catcher ABs that practically gets us to his free agency period.

[JohnBriggs12]

I think it's fair to say that if Maldanado keeps smacking clutch HRs at his current rate and taking his walks that changes some things. His record doesn't indicate he should provide that much offense, but I'll certainly take it right now. Casey had two whole years before he turned back into a pumpkin. In back-up catcher ABs that practically gets us to his free agency period.

 

He made big strides as a hitter last year, and he certainly is strong enough to hit the ball a long way. Who knows what he'll do in the long term, but he's opening eyes. What's more impressive is that he carries himself with such confidence. When word gets around, the pitching patterns will be more challanging, but how can anybody not be impressed?

[Funketown]

Is there any chance the Brewers decide to carry three catchers once Lucroy comes back? I'd bet not, and I normally wouldn't be crazy about the idea, but having Maldonado as a guy that could come in late in games would be nice, and Kottaras' bat is a pretty good bench bat. There's no reason to keep both Izturis and Maysonet, and I also don't see the point of having Ishikawa and Green on the roster, especially now that Hart is playing 1B.

[endaround]

If Lucroy comes back soon I'd expect Kottarras goes on the DL. I have no idea how the guy can catch, he seems like he can hardly walk right now.

[markedman5]

Lucroy isn't expected back until after the all star break.

[mothershipconnection]

It'd be awesome if he stays on this tear and convinces someone desperate for catching to give us a quality SS for him.

[ClosetBrewerFan]

This is a nice problem to have. When Lucroy comes back, it will be hard to chose what to do. Keep Kottaras or Maldonado.

 

Can we now say ....

 

Catching WOAH SOLVDD!