Just how good was Mark Loretta?

[Baldkin]

There are 7 SS's right now who have career splits over .380 OBP vs LHP. Fangraphs splits don't go back much farther than that, but I'd imagine there are plenty of guys who fill that criteria.

[3and2Fastball]

I think Tulo could handle 2B just fine off the top of my head. I just don't see why a guy off the bench would need to be a great defender. I'd rather have a 1.000 OPS guy with average defense than a .800 OPS guy with above average defense coming in late in the game.

 

Yes I'd rather have a 1.000 OPS guy pinch-hitting late, too...or a guy like Tony Gwynn who might be the ultimate pinch hitter late in games....

 

But you'd still need a great backup infielder because as I mentioned, a lot of the all-time greats got hurt a lot (Barry Larkin, Joe Morgan, Rogers Hornsby, Wade Boggs etc), so you'd need a guy who could come in and start some games and play solid defense and not hurt you with the bat. High OBP is important in role players because the heart of your order is filled with the most incredible RBI producers of all-time.

 

Tulowitzki is a great pick.

 

I think the thing that hurts Loretta a lot in this supposed HOF League is his inability to steal bases. If he was a guy who could steal 40-50 bases a season or go from 1st to home easily on every double, he'd have significantly more value

 

Having said that, a guy with the ability to play any position frees up a manager to have more specialized players on their bench. Guys like Edgar Martinez who were all-hit and no-field start to make more sense if you have every defensive position in the infield covered with one player. And conceivably Loretta could save your bullpen in blowouts by coming in and getting raked on in blowouts (that really should be half in Blue, there is actual value there...plus Mark Loretta pitching to Babe Ruth in a blowout game might have entertainment value!)

 

Yes I was mainly using Fielding % to look at defensive stats and probably need to look deeper than that

[igor67]

Perhaps the bigger thing in my mind about Loretta is that given his very modest power he really got stuck early in his career behind Valentin and Vina. In the mid '90's he didn't look all that exciting as a SS prospect, but even if you adjust for different era he looks pretty good as a SS. And we'd certainly take him in a heart beat now. I'd guesstimate he could have broken 2000 hits if he hadn't been splitting time, so much early on.

[Thurston Fluff]

How good was he? Good enough to be remembered fondly a decade after he played here. Good enough that those fond memories came when there were few reasons to have fond memories. Good enough to be a "Brewer" for life in this fans opinion. He and Jenkins have a place in my heart because they were one of very few real players we had back then. If you want to know how he compares to others I couldn't tell you. I am too much of fan of his to be objective.

[Mike2k33]

How good was he? Good enough to be remembered fondly a decade after he played here. Good enough that those fond memories came when there were few reasons to have fond memories. Good enough to be a "Brewer" for life in this fans opinion. He and Jenkins have a place in my heart because they were one of very few real players we had back then. If you want to know how he compares to others I couldn't tell you. I am too much of fan of his to be objective.

 

 

I agree completely and feel the same way. Well said.

 

Also, I think you have to add Cirillo to the list of fondly remembered Brewers from that bleak era.

[Dollarbill13]

Taking away the "every infield position" thing. Is there another SS/2B (who would not be a starter in an 8 team league --- i.e. not one of the Top 16 2B/SS of all-time) with that high of a OBP in a platoon split who would be as good or better defensively? (Asking honestly in that, I don't know)

 

Toby Harrah played a significant number of games at 2B, 3B, and SS (primarily 3B & SS) and had a .282/.400/.428 line against lefties compared to Loretta's .306/.392/.411 line against lefties. Julio Franco played 1B, 2B, and SS and had a .316/.389/.470 line against lefties.

[DHonks]

Loretta was the forgotten Brewers star of the late 90s, and my personal favorite. we haven't really had a hitter like Loretta or Cirillo since then, which is disappointing. Yet at the time we wanted to replace them with lesser players that were more powerful. As for Loretta planning on leaving...we never had any reason to think that he would have walked in free agency over remaining a Brewer.

[Gobias Industries]

Loretta was the forgotten Brewers star of the late 90s, and my personal favorite. we haven't really had a hitter like Loretta or Cirillo since then, which is disappointing. Yet at the time we wanted to replace them with lesser players that were more powerful. As for Loretta planning on leaving...we never had any reason to think that he would have walked in free agency over remaining a Brewer.

Agreed. My hopes are for Taylor Green to hopefully be this kind of hitter, but so far the early returns don't look promising.

[igor67]

I've made the argument before, but those late 90's teams actually could have made some playoff runs if the rotation had been more than a collection of #7 starters.

[Dollarbill13]

we haven't really had a hitter like Loretta or Cirillo since then, which is disappointing. Yet at the time we wanted to replace them with lesser players that were more powerful.

 

If only Ryan Braun would stop hitting home runs...

[monty57]

3and2Fastball, if you are really intrigued by this (and have some spare time), you could do a "mock draft" for your "league" and see what you come up with. I'd think that there would be Hall of Fame guys sitting on teams' benches, so there probably wouldn't be room for guys like Loretta but until you actually put the rosters together you don't really know.

 

As for me, I think Thurston put it pretty well. There aren't a lot of good players to remember from that period of Brewers history, and Loretta was an easy guy to cheer for. I'll always be a fan.

[Nottso]

How good was he? Good enough to be remembered fondly a decade after he played here. Good enough that those fond memories came when there were few reasons to have fond memories. Good enough to be a "Brewer" for life in this fans opinion. He and Jenkins have a place in my heart because they were one of very few real players we had back then. If you want to know how he compares to others I couldn't tell you. I am too much of fan of his to be objective.

 

 

I agree completely and feel the same way. Well said.

 

Also, I think you have to add Cirillo to the list of fondly remembered Brewers from that bleak era.

 

Absolutely agree with this.

[RockCoCougars]

I don't think Don Money was anywhere close to as great as Mark Loretta (although I will concede that Money was better at hitting HR's and stealing bases). In terms of BA, OBP, and Fielding % at any and every position Loretta was significantly better than Money

 

In my view, Don Money was a better hitter than Loretta. When Money was here, offense in baseball was mostly down, when Loretta was here, it was a video game. You have to take things in the context of the era in which they played. Until he got older, Money was also a very capable fielder. Overall, I'd have to take Money hands down.

[JimH5]

Money was a vastly better player than Loretta.

 

He had a 106 OPS+ vs. a 98 for Loretta.

 

Money was a 4-time All Star, Loretta went twice.

 

Money has a career WAR of 33.3, Loretta's is 16.6.

 

Money was a plus defender, Loretta played more games at other positions, but the metrics show he was below average.

 

Money set a record for consecutive errorless games at 3rd.

 

Money stole more bases and at a higher percentage than Loretta.

[dlk9s]

I don't know guys. When I think Hall of Famer, I think Mark Loretta.

[mothershipconnection]

I think the best you can say about Loretta is that if he's legitimately your 8th-best option (i.e., behind every non-catcher), you have a very solid lineup.

[RWeeksFan23]

I don't know guys. When I think Hall of Famer, I think Mark Loretta.

*actual LOL*

[HiAndTight]

Loretta was the forgotten Brewers star of the late 90s, and my personal favorite. we haven't really had a hitter like Loretta or Cirillo since then, which is disappointing. Yet at the time we wanted to replace them with lesser players that were more powerful. As for Loretta planning on leaving...we never had any reason to think that he would have walked in free agency over remaining a Brewer.

Agreed. My hopes are for Taylor Green to hopefully be this kind of hitter, but so far the early returns don't look promising.

 

 

I've been waiting for the first Taylor Green mention.

 

I've thought for the last several years that Green has the potential to be a somewhat similar player to Loretta. A guy who can hit .300, carry a high OBP, play 1st, 2nd and 3rd(though not short).

 

I don't think he'll ever hit for the average Loretta did in his prime, or the OBP, but will hit for a little more power. But I'm still hopeful that he can become a Loretta-esque player.

 

And I agree, if you're building an all-time league with all time players and trying to build the best team possible, having a guy like Loretta may allow you to carry a guy like Tim Raines as well as another guy with big platoon splits the other way because he could do so much.

 

If you really get down to it, he really isn't in THAT league, but if you start at say 1980 I would argue that he is.

[davego]

I'm old enough to remember Money playing for the 'Crew. He was very good in the field and had more power then he might be given credit for.

[RobertR]

I'm not convinced that I'd take Mark Loretta over Jose Valentin. Certainly they were different types of players, but overall value points towards Valentin in a number of aspects.

 

In any event, Mark Loretta's 17.0 WAR (according to Baseball Reference) in 15 seasons really should knock him out of any discussion of "great" ballplayers in any shape or form. 2003 and 2004 were Loretta's only truly valuable years.

 

Robert

[The stache]

"Rose couldn't play SS"

 

That he never played SS doesn't mean he wasn't capable of playing there.

 

Exactly.

 

"The 'stache has never dated Kate Upton".

 

Just because I haven't, doesn't mean I'm not capable. I am up to the challenge!

[The stache]

I've been waiting for the first Taylor Green mention.

 

I don't think he'll ever hit for the average Loretta did in his prime, or the OBP, but will hit for a little more power. But I'm still hopeful that he can become a Loretta-esque player.

 

 

I think he has a very good chance to be a .300 hitter with more power. People are understating Green's potential. The guy can hit, and given consistent playing time, we'll see it.

 

Scooter Gennett is a much better comparison to Loretta.

[OldHoss]

HIJACK:

 

This thread has made me wonder, who is the best pinch hitter or bench player of all time?

 

If I'm building this "Super Team," and I put Babe Ruth in RF, my first instinct would be to put Aaron or F.Rob as his backup. But, assuming this is not just about compiling a list of the best players, but putting together a team to beat another "Super Team," I'm not sure that I want a guy who has been a starter for his entire career to be a pinch hitter and get one AB every game or two. I'm not saying that Aaron couldn't come off the bench as a pinch hitter and succeed. But he has no track record to give us an indication one way or another. Additionally, it may not be a great use of team finances to pay my RF back up almost as much as the starter (so what if I'm a tight-wad in my baseball fantasies?).

 

So, back to the question, who is the best PH or bench player you can remember?

 

The first that comes to my mind is Greg Gross. On those good Phillies teams of the late 70's and early 80's it seems like I remember him getting a hit every time he came up as a PH.

[brwrsfan]

 

So, back to the question, who is the best PH or bench player you can remember?

 

 

Lenny Harris

[StearnsFTW]

Lenny Harris.

 

He was great in his one season as a Brewer too.