Just how good was Mark Loretta?

[3and2Fastball]

A buddy of mine and I were talking about Mark Loretta and I'm starting to think that maybe Loretta was even better than I thought he was during his career (i.e. maybe I took him for granted).

 

I know Loretta was not a Hall of Famer, and he only played in one All-Star game, but if you were assembling a team of All-Time greats, Loretta might be a good choice as a Utily player off the bench who could pinch hit vs LHP. The guy played 1B, 2B, SS, 3B and played them all at above league average. He was a career .306 hitter with a .392 OBP vs LHP (overall he hit .295 with a .360 OBP). He was an All-American college SS who occasionally pitched out of the bullpen and even had a 0.00 ERA in 1.1 innings in MLB. And he could play OF...

 

Am I over-rating Loretta thinking that he could be a solid Utilty player on a team of All-Time greats? Is there another player who could play every infield position above league average and get on base at a .392 clip vs LHP? He didn't steal many bases, he didn't hit for power, but he did get a decent amount of doubles

 

Just how good was Mark Loretta?

[dlk9s]

Loretta was a very good player but to say he could be a bench player on a team of all-time greats is way, way, way, way, way overrating him.

[3and2Fastball]

Loretta was a very good player but to say he could be a bench player on a team of all-time greats is way, way, way, way, way overrating him.

 

OK, I hear you, but maybe I should have added more context:

 

Say you had an 8 team league of All-Time greats, 25 man rosters on each. Bench positions are like Gold in such a scenario. Can you name someone else who could play above average Defense at every Infield position and get On Base at a .392 clip vs LHP?

 

Alan Trammel is a guy who comes to mind. Trammel never played 1B but I would imagine he could have. Trammel's Fielding % at 3B & 2B were pretty significantly below Loretta's. And Trammel hit .293/.366 vs LHP

 

Jeff Cirillo is another player, but Cirillo only played 5 games at SS and his defense at 2B was just league average. And Cirillo's OBP vs LHP was .382

 

Again I'm thinking that in terms of defensive versatility and in a platoon split, Mark Loretta was pretty valuable

 

Someone like Eddie Collins was much much better than Loretta and could play every defensive position, but Collins would be a starter in such a scenario

[Raw Biz]

Well when your criteria is you have to be able to play every infield position other than catcher, then sure because there probably aren't very many guys who have done so consistently. I don't understand why you are using that as criteria though. Even teams now don't have guys that do that. They may have a guy who can play 2B/3B or 2B/SS but rarely do teams have guys that play every IF position. So to answer your question, Loretta would not make one of these teams because there are a lot of guys who only played one position who were a lot better than Loretta. I wouldn't think a team of all-time greats would need a utility backup because they are all-time greats (i.e. they are probably pretty good on defense too).

[Baldkin]

So, even if you go 15 position players for each team, even if you take 10 infielders for each team, that's 80 infielders.

 

No way Loretta touches the top 80 infielders of all time (or 120 position players). He was really, really good, and completely underutilized during his time in Milwaukee.... but the Brewers alone have had at least 3 guys in their organization who could've filled that role way better, in Molitor, Yount and Sheffield.

[3and2Fastball]

Thanks for your reply Raw Biz. I know the scenario/criteria I've set up is plenty fanciful and somewhat silly, but it is something that I think about sometimes

 

The reason you'd need a versatile Utility player on a team of All-Time greats is because a lot of All-Time greats got hurt fairly often (Hornsby, Joe Morgan, Barry Larkin, Wade Boggs, Rod Carew etc). And because you be facing All-Time great pitching staffs, OBP and platoon splits would be at a premium.

 

In my pretend world of All-Time Great Baseball, there is no Designated Hitter and you'd need a guy to pinch hit and double switch in, too

[RockCoCougars]

He was certainly better than Ginter and Franklin- another one of Taylor's horrible moves.

 

Back in the day, I considered him to be pretty much on par with Vina. I don't think either of those guys was as good as Cirillo. Looking at his stats, he was another guy who got better when he was traded from the Brewers. Taylor always had a knack for trading guys just at the right time....

[3and2Fastball]

So, even if you go 15 position players for each team, even if you take 10 infielders for each team, that's 80 infielders.

 

No way Loretta touches the top 80 infielders of all time (or 120 position players). He was really, really good, and completely underutilized during his time in Milwaukee.... but the Brewers alone have had at least 3 guys in their organization who could've filled that role way better, in Molitor, Yount and Sheffield.

 

Molitor would be a better utility guy than Loretta, I can see that. Molitor was a significantly better hitter than Loretta (although I'll point out that their career OBP vs LHP was exactly the same) but Molitor really was only great defensively at 1B & 2B. You could only put Molitor at SS in an emergency and he was below league average at 3B (at least in terms of Fielding %). Molitor would likely start at 2B in an 8 team league of HOF players anyways

 

Yount I'd see as a likely starter at SS. And Yount never played 2B or 3B

 

Sheffield never played 2B, and his defense at SS & 3B was below league average. He had a helluva bat though (.405 OBP vs LHP). Not sure if Sheffield would be banned from the League for Steroids or not though.... (would have to ask the Commissioner!)

[JohnBriggs12]

He was certainly better than Ginter and Franklin- another one of Taylor's horrible moves.

 

Back in the day, I considered him to be pretty much on par with Vina. I don't think either of those guys was as good as Cirillo. Looking at his stats, he was another guy who got better when he was traded from the Brewers. Taylor always had a knack for trading guys just at the right time....

 

But he was going to be a FA at the end of 2002 and it's almost certain he would have been gone. Ginter wasn't bad in 03 and 04 and he brought Nelson Cruz back in a deal. Franklin at least survived a year in the rotation and along with Leo Estrella brought back Carlos Villanueva in a deal.

[3and2Fastball]

Pete Rose would probably be one of the ultimate Utility guys in a Hall of Fame League.

 

I would never argue that Mark Loretta was better than Pete Rose. But there is only one Pete Rose, and Rose couldn't play SS and his D at 2B wasn't great either.

 

One of the reasons that Loretta is so valuable is because he would eliminate having to carry a backup SS on the team when a pinch runner/backup OF like Tim Raines would be so much more valuable than, say, an Ozzie Smith. Would you rather have Mark Loretta & Tim Raines or Ozzie Smith and a backup 1b/3b/2B and have to use Ozzie as your pinch runner?

 

It is the bottom of the 8th, your opponent has Johnny Bench or Yogi Berra behind the plate, you've got a man on 1st and you need to get him in scoring position. Tim Raines is very valuable

[Dollarbill13]

Molitor has the highest career WAR of any player who has played at least 50 games at each infield position. If you limit it to players who have played at least 100 games at each infield position, Don Money has the highest WAR.

 

Interestingly, it looks like there are only 23 players all time who played 50 games at each position and 5 who have played 100 games at each position. Only Loretta played 200 games at each position. That's pretty cool. Still not on any of my All-Time lists though

[Baldkin]

1) Anyone who could play SS could backup any other IF position without much of an issue if asked. Just because they didn't play somewhere else, doesn't mean they couldn't, you're overrating his versatility because he played on crappy teams without a stud SS. Had Molitor not had Yount, he probably would've played a lot more SS (for example).

 

2) You can pick out any specific situation and say a specific guy would be very valuable. I'd rather have Jim Thome than Mark Loretta coming in to face Eck with 2 outs and 2 on, down 2 in the 9th.

[JohnBriggs12]

"Rose couldn't play SS"

 

That he never played SS doesn't mean he wasn't capable of playing there.

[3and2Fastball]

1) Anyone who could play SS could backup any other IF position without much of an issue if asked. Just because they didn't play somewhere else, doesn't mean they couldn't, you're overrating his versatility because he played on crappy teams without a stud SS. Had Molitor not had Yount, he probably would've played a lot more SS (for example).

 

That is a good point, a very good point.

 

 

2) You can pick out any specific situation and say a specific guy would be very valuable. I'd rather have Jim Thome than Mark Loretta coming in to face Eck with 2 outs and 2 on, down 2 in the 9th.

 

Well, Loretta would be only used as a pinch hitter vs LHP. I would rather have Loretta facing Billy Wagner with 2 outs and 2 men on in the bottom of the 9th than Jim Thome (Thome really struggled vs LHP in his career). Thome would likely be a platoon starter at 3B or 1B or OF anyways...

 

Not to digress too much, but have you ever looked up Billy Wagner's stats in the postseason? He flat out was horrible, over and over again in the postseason. Very strange for a guy who was so dominant in the regular season.

[RockCoCougars]

If I'm choosing a utility man for an all time team, it's gonna be Craig Biggio. The guy caught and then moved to the middle infield. Right now, I can't think of one other guy who's done that. Then he moved to CF. I have no doubt that he could have handled SS/3B better than a guy like Loretta could have caught. Plus there is the 3,000 hits.

[3and2Fastball]

Craig Biggio would indeed be one of the best Utility players on an All-Time team and he would arguably be more valuable than Mark Loretta, especially because Biggio would eliminate the need for a back-up catcher and could be a pinch-runner. I can't think of anyone else who could be a back-up catcher and a pinch runner, maybe I suppose Jason Kendall but Kendall wasn't as great of a baserunner as Biggio and never played any other infield position besides catcher and Kendall's outfield defensive stats are pretty horrible.

 

Biggio's versatility is huge. I believe Biggio and Tris Speaker are still the only players in MLB history with 50 doubles and 50 stolen bases in a single season.

 

I soured a little on Biggio when I discovered how poorly Biggio hit in the post-season (hitting just .234 with a .295 OBP in 185 plate appearances) and maybe I value post-season performance too much. That said Biggio would be a great choice for a bench player

[3and2Fastball]

I suppose what I meant to say about Biggio is: I'm not convinced as to his value as a back-up catcher completely. In a league full of Ty Cobb, Rickey Henderson, Tim Raines, Maury Wills, Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, Joe Morgan, Paul Molitor, Tris Speaker etc the ability to throw out runners would be at a premium... and Biggio threw out only 23% of regular MLB players. That ain't gonna cut it in a HOF league, teams would be running on Biggio all day long.

 

Maybe Biggio would be a great emergency catcher, allowing a manager to pinch hit with a great hitting catcher like a Mike Piazza in the late innings, but I don't know if it would work having Biggio catch every 4th or 5th game

[fondybrewfan]

I think you could throw Loretta on the bench of an All Times Brewer team; but nothing more than that. He was definitely a good versatile player in his day.

[RockCoCougars]

I think you could throw Loretta on the bench of an All Times Brewer team; but nothing more than that. He was definitely a good versatile player in his day.

 

I'm not sure if I'd even put him there. In my view, Don Money was the best versatility guy for the Crew. He was kind of like Pete Rose, moving around when new guys came in (Bando, Molitor, etc.).

[3and2Fastball]

I don't think Don Money was anywhere close to as great as Mark Loretta (although I will concede that Money was better at hitting HR's and stealing bases). In terms of BA, OBP, and Fielding % at any and every position Loretta was significantly better than Money

[Raw Biz]

It seems like you're the only one who thinks Loretta would make a team of all-time greats and your main points are because he can play every IF position and he has a high OBP against lefties. The defensive versatility isn't a big deal because like I said, most of the stars were great defensively. You wouldn't need a guy to cover every position as a back-up.

 

As far as the OBP thing, I'd sacrifice some OBP for a little more power. Even if that wasn't the case, I'm sure there are quite a few others I'd rather have than Loretta. His OPS against lefties was only .802. Dustin Pedroia is at .844. Sure Pedroia has mainly only played 2B but I'm sure he could handle 3B (and he has a few games at SS). And I definitely wouldn't include Pedroia on a team of all-time greats.

 

I just think your reasoning for including Loretta doesn't make sense. You don't need a guy to be able to play every IF position and an .802 OPS against lefties is nothing special all-time.

[Yount19]

Don Money >>> Mark Loretta

 

Don Money in his day was known as a great fielding third basemen.

 

 

For all time Brewers "bench".. I'd definitely have Don Money(1B,2B,3B,SS,OF) and Charley Moore (C/OF) too.. Another name you could add, would be Kevin Sietzer. The rest of the bench would be the left over first basemen who wouldn't be a starter on the team. (Scott,Cooper, Sexson, Overbay, Fielder) (No room for Greg Brock)

[3and2Fastball]

It seems like you're the only one who thinks Loretta would make a team of all-time greats and your main points are because he can play every IF position and he has a high OBP against lefties. The defensive versatility isn't a big deal because like I said, most of the stars were great defensively. You wouldn't need a guy to cover every position as a back-up.

.

 

 

I'm not at all convinced that Loretta would be a utility guy on a team of all-time greats. But I think maybe he might be. That is why I was asking.

 

Taking away the "every infield position" thing. Is there another SS/2B (who would not be a starter in an 8 team league --- i.e. not one of the Top 16 2B/SS of all-time) with that high of a OBP in a platoon split who would be as good or better defensively? (Asking honestly in that, I don't know)

[Yount19]

Can you consider Loretta "Great" defensively? Good, yes.. but Great? I don't remember him having great range or a rocket for an arm. Or are you going by fielding percentage?

[Raw Biz]

It seems like you're the only one who thinks Loretta would make a team of all-time greats and your main points are because he can play every IF position and he has a high OBP against lefties. The defensive versatility isn't a big deal because like I said, most of the stars were great defensively. You wouldn't need a guy to cover every position as a back-up.

.

 

 

I'm not at all convinced that Loretta would be a utility guy on a team of all-time greats. But I think maybe he might be. That is why I was asking.

 

Taking away the "every infield position" thing. Is there another SS/2B with that high of a OBP in a platoon split who would be as good or better defensively? (Asking honestly in that, I don't know)

 

I think Tulo could handle 2B just fine off the top of my head. I just don't see why a guy off the bench would need to be a great defender. I'd rather have a 1.000 OPS guy with average defense than a .800 OPS guy with above average defense coming in late in the game.