Rankings of Baseball's All-Time Greatest Pitchers

[splitterpfj]

Here's the pitchers page...again, as voted by the readers of Baseball-Reference.com.

 

Fair warning, closers do not stack up well against starters...

 

http://www.baseballintheblood.com/?page_id=451

[3and2Fastball]

The biggest and most glaring mistake in this list is not having Satchell Paige in the Top 20. Many believe he should be in the Top 5. Top 20 should be a no-brainer

[splitterpfj]

3and2, I don't seen any way possible to rank Paige highly on an all-time pitchers list...it's not fair, and I hate it, but the facts are, Satchel only got in 476 IP in the big leagues.

 

There's just no way he's ever going to show up on a list like this, he just didn't get in enough time to qualify.

 

You can't "what if" a guy into a high position on a list where voters are given major league stats and asked to pick.

 

He's not the only one, there were plenty of Negro League stars who would have done very well if they'd been allowed into the big leagues, and for that matter, the stats of the guys who did play in the big leagues before integration would have been different too, if the best black players had been on the field with them.

[Invader3K]

Random fact learned: Kid Nichols was born in Madison, WI.

[Funketown]

The biggest and most glaring mistake in this list is not having Satchell Paige in the Top 20. Many believe he should be in the Top 5. Top 20 should be a no-brainer

 

Paige is ~450. The problem is obviously that the MLB stats come up. I'm still surprised he doesn't crack the top 50 though, much less the top 100. You'd think the people filling these out would be knowledgeable enough to understand why Paige's numbers in MLB weren't incredible (though they were excellent for a 41-59 year old).

 

His career rAVG in NgM is 3.22, so I'd guess that puts his ERA at 2.5-2.75. K/BB of nearly 5. Not to mention, he put up an ERA+ of 124 between his age 41-46 seasons.

[stoutdude04]

What is crazy is that the Braves had 3 of the top 31 pitchers of all time....at the same time!

[RockCoCougars]

Random fact learned: Kid Nichols was born in Madison, WI.

 

Addie Joss was from Wisconsin as well. I believe that these are the only two HOF pitchers from Wisconsin to this day.

[topper09er]

There are 4 Wisconsin born players in the HOF

Kid Nichols (Madison) 361 wins good for 7th all-time, won 30 games a record 7 times. Mostly played with the Boston Beaneaters, later the Boston and Milwaukee Braves. Best pitcher of the 1890s.

 

Addie Joss (Woodland) Only HOF to play at the University of Wisconsin, threw a perfect game an another no hitter. 2nd lowest career ERA and lowest career WHIP. These were achieved because he did not have a decline phase in his career; he died at age 31 and long after made the HOF despite not playing the required 10 seasons.

 

Burleigh Grimes (Emerald) Had a long above average career with 270 wins, but is most notable for being the last active spitball pitcher who was grandfathered in after it was banned in 1920.

 

Al Simmons (Milwaukee) Had 100+ RBI in his first 11 straight seasons, a record, and was the fastest player to reach 2000 hits (in only 1390 games). Hit .392 in 1927, .390 in 1931, .387 in 1925 and .381 in 1930. Tried to hang on for 3000 hits with several bad final seasons but only made it to 2927 knocks. When he retired his 307 HRs were the 5th most all-time.

[RockCoCougars]

Thanks for the list. I completely blanked on Grimes. Kind of surprising that Wisconsin hasn't developed even one HOF player in the past century. I have to think that puts us in pretty select company.

[3and2Fastball]

3and2, I don't seen any way possible to rank Paige highly on an all-time pitchers list...it's not fair, and I hate it, but the facts are, Satchel only got in 476 IP in the big leagues.

 

There's just no way he's ever going to show up on a list like this, he just didn't get in enough time to qualify.

 

You can't "what if" a guy into a high position on a list where voters are given major league stats and asked to pick.

.

 

Yes, this is true but then it is mostly a flaw in the system of Baseballreference.com by not supplying Negro League stats as part of the comparison.

 

We all know how much pitcher's stats decline after age 35, much less after 40. Paige's MLB stats, all accumulated after the age of 40, puts him in the rare air of pitchers like Randy Johnson, Nolan Ryan & Hoyt Wilhelm who also dominated late in their careers.

 

It is not an unreasonable assumption to say that Paige was probably better at age 30 than age 41. How much better might be somewhat more challenging to document, but he certainly deserves to be ranked much much higher. Same thing with Smokey Joe Williams and other Negro League stars.

 

Oh well...

[splitterpfj]

I think the updates are fun to watch.

 

Right now, Bert Blyleven and Pedro Martinez are tied, while Phil Niekro, Steve Carlton, and Gaylord Perry are within two pts of each other.

[3and2Fastball]

I'm glad to see Randy Johnson up to #8, I think he should be in the Top 5 and I think he's better than Matthewson & Pete Alexander and possibly Walter Johnson especially when you start comparing the eras (not the ERA's!) they pitched in... Randy Johnson was pitching against juicers like Bonds, Sosa, McGwire etc... Walter Johnson pitched against Ty Cobb and who else? No Black ballplayers in his league, nobody from the Dominican Republic etc etc

 

Pedro & Blyleven being tied is a crazy crazy notion. Blyleven was good but he wasn't anywhere near as good as Pedro...

 

Nolan Ryan and his 112 ERA+ at #13 All-Time? Hilarious

[HiAndTight]

I'm glad to see Randy Johnson up to #8, I think he should be in the Top 5 and I think he's better than Matthewson & Pete Alexander and possibly Walter Johnson especially when you start comparing the eras (not the ERA's!) they pitched in... Randy Johnson was pitching against juicers like Bonds, Sosa, McGwire etc... Walter Johnson pitched against Ty Cobb and who else? No Black ballplayers in his league, nobody from the Dominican Republic etc etc

 

Pedro & Blyleven being tied is a crazy crazy notion. Blyleven was good but he wasn't anywhere near as good as Pedro...

 

Nolan Ryan and his 112 ERA+ at #13 All-Time? Hilarious

 

 

 

But...it goes without saying, he was great for a much longer time than Pedro, which always has to play in.

[3and2Fastball]

Being great for much longer than Pedro, or Koufax (another truly great pitcher with a shortened career) would indeed give someone a chance to make the Top 20. But Blyleven was only truly great in a few seasons ('73, '77, '84), never won a Cy Young, never even came in 2nd in the Cy Young voting (and granted, Cy Young voting, especially back then, was skewed towards W-L records)... looking at OPS+, Blyleven's best year of 156 is just 2 points above Pedro's career average....

 

If you look at Pedro's career stats, he scorches Blyleven in so many statistical categories (20-4 in 2002 with a 2.26 ERA in the Steroid era pitching in Fenway Park! I mean c'mon now! Or how about in 2000: 1.74 ERA, 0.737 WHIP, 11.8 K/9, those are truly dominant numbers that Blyleven never approached....)

 

Pedro pitched in 476 games over the course of 18 years.... Koufax is another one who should be ranked much higher than Blyleven

[splitterpfj]

I think the debate of Pedro vs Blyleven is not at all crazy, I think it is warranted.

 

It's classic...it's the guy with the phenomenal peak in a somewhat shortened career, vs the guy who was consistently good over a much longer period.

 

3and2...I don't see how anyone could think Pedro's best seasons weren't better than Blyleven's, but if you're voting on a guy's entire contribution, I can see why these two pitchers are right on top of each other, they just got there in very different ways.

 

If you're going to get into this level in 409 career starts (Pedro's career total), you have to have an incredible run...which Pedro had. If you're going to get to this spot without ever being that absolute monster, you have to do it for 15+ years, which Blyleven did.

 

Pedro started at least 30 games in a season a grand total of 7 times...to put up HOF numbers under those conditions is remarkable.

 

Blyleven reached the big leagues at age 19, as a starting pitcher, and he pitched through age 39, making at least 30 starts 16 times - the classic, "always good" guy who lasted a long time and got there.

 

Who had the best 5-8 year run...Pedro, in a landslide...who had the better career as a pitcher....I can see why that's undecided...

[RockCoCougars]

I think the updates are fun to watch.

 

Right now, Bert Blyleven and Pedro Martinez are tied, while Phil Niekro, Steve Carlton, and Gaylord Perry are within two pts of each other.

 

I'd argue that Pedro was much better than Blyleven. I'd compare Pedro more to a guy like Sandy Koufax, while Blyleven would be in a Don Sutton class. I'd also argue that Niekro and Perry weren't really close to Carlton (though Perry was closer than Niekro). Carlton is one of the more underrated HOF of all time (relatively speaking, obviously) in my opinion, the problem being that he hung on about 3 years too long and likely hurt some of his more advanced stats.

[JimH5]

Walter Johnson pitched against Ty Cobb and who else?

 

Here are the HOF hitters who were active in the AL during Walter Johnson's career:

 

Frank Baker

Ty Cobb

Mickey Cochrane

Eddie Collins

Jimmy Collins

Earle Combs

Sam Crawford

George Davis

Jimmie Foxx

Elmer Flick

Lou Gehrig

Charlie Gehringer

Goose Goslin

Harry Heilmann

Willie Keeler

Napoleon Lajoie

Tony Lazzeri

Heinie Manush

Sam Rice

Babe Ruth

Ray Schalk

Joe Sewell

Al Simmons

George Sisler

Tris Speaker

Bobby Wallace

[Ennder]

Yeah there were plenty of great hitters back then. If you want to make that argument I would focus on how many horrible hitters played every day back then. The replacement level has gone way up over the years for hitters.

[splitterpfj]

I think the best way to judge a player, by far, is to compare him to the players of his own era. It's not perfect, but it brings their achievements much closer together than just counting home runs, strikeouts, etc.

 

There is no doubt, stats would have been impacted, and some missing players would have been very high on these lists, if not for segregation...which was a complete disgrace.

 

There are plenty of other factors too, though, such as....how many career hits would Ty Cobb or George Sisler have if they had played on astroturf? What affect did expansion have on numbers...there were far fewer major league jobs available years ago. What if Ichiro had played his entire career here, how many hits, steals, runs, etc would he have? Exactly how fast did Walter Johnson throw? How many pitchers have moved up on these lists because they pitched after the invention of "Tommy John surgery?" How many hitters added home runs, hits, etc by playing a few extra years as a DH? What would the DH have done to the stats of the pitchers from prior eras? What if the mound hadn't been lowered? What if everyone had traveled by train? What if there were no teams in the Pacific Time Zone today, as there weren't in years past? What if the fielders of the 1920s had used the same gloves they use now? What if Ted Williams had played in Denver? What if Koufax had pitched 5 more years?

 

There are lots of reasons why any player you want to name may have moved up or down on these lists, "if"....what we know for sure is, what they did, when they did it...the rest is up to the voter to interpret and choose.

 

Personally, I think that's the best part of these things. If you think the guy who ate people alive for 5-10 years was better than the guy who was always good for 15-17 years...vote that way, and tell the world why....if not, vote the other way and speak up.

 

Honestly...how do you or I know how Barry Bonds would have done against Cy Young, or vice versa?

[3and2Fastball]

Personally, I think that's the best part of these things. If you think the guy who ate people alive for 5-10 years was better than the guy who was always good for 15-17 years...vote that way, and tell the world why....if not, vote the other way and speak up.

 

I wholeheartedly agree... that is exactly what makes ranking players from different eras so fun....

 

Comparing players based on their peers is effective but sometimes flawed. For instance:

 

just because there weren't a lot (or any really) of power hitting SS's in Cal Ripken's time shouldn't automatically elevate him to near the top of the SS list

[splitterpfj]

Moving up....Sandy Koufax, Bob Feller, Carl Hubbell

 

Moving down...Gaylord Perry, Fergie Jenkins

 

http://www.baseballintheblood.com/?page_id=451

[3and2Fastball]

Good to see Pedro and Koufax moving up....

 

Maddux & Alexander are almost tied at 5 & 6 and similarily the 11-15 spots are extremely close

[3and2Fastball]

Check out Tom Seaver moving into 3rd place. Nice to see the breakup of the dominance in the Top 3 spots of pitchers who played in All-White leagues 100 or so years ago