If we sell, what are the pieces to sell?

[TURBO]

With all that Paul is suggesting, I think you can expect to take a pretty big hit in ticket sales... That is the problem with tearing this thing down and rebuilding. The average can't appreciate young, unknown talent.

 

Not that I don't agree with what is proposed, just don't think it will happen with the current administration calling the shots.

[derflotr]

If there is any interest in Ramirez, I feel like it's imperative that he's traded. I know he was given a three year deal, but I have to think the Brewers signed him for 2012 specifically. That ship has sunk, so how important is it that he's kept? He's not a terrible player, but he's not irreplaceable. I'd like to not have to worry about that contract.

[Eye Black]

Matt Garza is missing from that list

 

If you are referring to 3and2's upcoming free agent starting pitcher's list, it's because Garza is under contract through next season. The Cubs are shopping him with a year and a half of team control left.

[MNBrew]

Paul's plan gives us a team of Braun, Lucroy, Weeks, Gallardo, Axford, Estrada, and no one else with any sort of proven track record for major league success -- a glorified KC Royals of the past couple years: loads of prospects but anyone with any solid experience quickly earns his way to a better team for yet more prospects (the start of a vicious cycle that many teams have a tough time breaking).

 

Perhaps equally pie-in-the-sky, but here's my hope:

 

- Hart & K-Rod are the obvious guys to trade. There are replacements for both of them in Green & Axford. Green plays everyday & Ishikawa backs him up. $16M cleared from the payroll (in full-season terms).

- Find a SS who can do something consistently positive with the bat. This team's pitching is lousy but its hitting outside its star-types is horribly benign.

- Choose whether Kottaras or Maldonado is the backup catcher moving forward & get someone good for the bullpen for the other (likely greater quality for Maldonado but it'd still depend on who the trade partner would be).

 

Also...

 

- Get Greinke's John Hancock on a contract extension regardless of the price. (Yes, I mean that seriously).

- Keep Ramirez. It's not that he's the best 3B out there. But Taylor Green plays other positions, too, where we also need him and we've seen what happens at SS when you have no good backup player.

- Find some way -- hopefully through the above moves -- to improve this crap bullpen. For all those who questioned their worth, I'd still gladly take Hawkins & Kotsay back onto this roster for their comfort in their roles and their savvy clubhouse leadership.

[Jaylyn]

OK maybe contend was too optimistic. However, it's painfully clear last year was the window. Now, we can continue to use the band-aid approach and overpay for free agents for an outside shot for post season play, no offense A-Ram, and listen to M&M fret about the teams payroll, or redevelop the farm system and have a continuing influx of MLB caliper players. Under pauls plan, yeah there would be some holes with question marks, but a "bad team" I don't think so, you still have an outstanding core to build around and hope for the future. But rickey is right, never gonna happen, gate receipts are more important than what's the best way to consistantly win.

[dlk9s]

a) The window was clearly still open this year, though not as wide as last year. Injuries and unexpected poor performances derailed things.

 

b) Since when has A-Ram been "no offense?" It's July now, not April.

[endaround]

How is that a young core to build around? You have 29 and 30 year olds in the OF, a 30 year old 2B and your top pitcher is a #2 under contract for 3 more years and really shouldn't be extended.

 

I think people don't fully realize that Milwaukee's plan wasn't to supplement Fielder, Braun and Weeks with FAs but instead prospects from a second wave. What happened is that second wave entirely crapped out. I've been meaning to write something on that, but the plan wasn't what happened. For example we had a left handed pitcher with 6 pitches whose FB was easily in the mid 90s. He looked to be a #2 at worse. And he has yet to make an impact even as a bullpen pitcher.

[paul253]

Not that I don't agree with what is proposed, just don't think it will happen with the current administration calling the shots.

I agree. But they all seem like reasonable moves to me. You trade away your guys and get their replacement in return. In the process you save a ton of money that can be invested in the bullpen, in depth, or at SS.

 

Paul's plan gives us a team of Braun, Lucroy, Weeks, Gallardo, Axford, Estrada, and no one else with any sort of proven track record for major league success -- a glorified KC Royals of the past couple years: loads of prospects but anyone with any solid experience quickly earns his way to a better team for yet more prospects (the start of a vicious cycle that many teams have a tough time breaking).

 

Well there's also Aoki and depending on the cost Gomez. That's a least 4 regulars in the 8 person lineup. Gamel, Green, Marte Schafer would be four others in the lineup. Obviously no success yet but three of them have nothing left to prove in the minors and Marte is quickly getting to that point as well. Olt, Gennett, Khris Davis, and Caleb Gindl would all be in AAA in case someone struggles.

 

Is it risky? Of course. But the point isn't necessarily to win the World Series in 2013. It's to help get the payroll back into whack and to see what you have. It's possible that Green, Gamel, Schafer, and Marte all fall flat on their face, but it's also possible all perform above what is expected. You can't have a proven track record without being given a chance.

[Invader3K]

Rosenthal has a tidbit that Manny Parra and Kameron Loe are drawing interest. Can't imagine either would attract much in return, but it might make sense to deal either or both. I could stand to never sit through an outing from either at this point.

[reillymcshane]

Rosenthal has a tidbit that Manny Parra and Kameron Loe are drawing interest. Can't imagine either would attract much in return, but it might make sense to deal either or both. I could stand to never sit through an outing from either at this point.

If you decide to bag the season, sell them for whatever you can get.

 

I think both guys are arby eligible next season, so you can say to any team that the guy is more than a rental. But both of these guys are going to make more than $2 million next year - then be free agents. If you're rebuilding, they are exactly the kinds of players you don't want to sink money into. Get whatever you can for them, save the money, and start rebuilding the farm system by adding a few prospects.

[jmeks23]

a) The window was clearly still open this year, though not as wide as last year. Injuries and unexpected poor performances derailed things.

 

b) Since when has A-Ram been "no offense?" It's July now, not April.

 

 

I think he actually meant to not imply offense. As in not offend. At least that's what I got out of the context.

[dlk9s]

Yeah, I think you might be right. I shouldn't post so early in the morning.

[Hate those Rodents]

Question on Aoki: Do we have an option on him for a third year? Also, do we get any arbitration years for him or does he just become essentially an "unrestricted" free agent when his current contract is up?

[Jaylyn]

a) The window was clearly still open this year, though not as wide as last year. Injuries and unexpected poor performances derailed things.

 

b) Since when has A-Ram been "no offense?" It's July now, not April.

 

 

I think he actually meant to not imply offense. As in not offend. At least that's what I got out of the context.

 

Thats what I meant. Ramirez has done exactly what he was brought on board for, but that salary does get ugly after this year.

 

 

How is that a young core to build around? You have 29 and 30 year olds in the OF, a 30 year old 2B and your top pitcher is a #2 under contract for 3 more years and really shouldn't be extended.

 

I think people don't fully realize that Milwaukee's plan wasn't to supplement Fielder, Braun and Weeks with FAs but instead prospects from a second wave. What happened is that second wave entirely crapped out. I've been meaning to write something on that, but the plan wasn't what happened. For example we had a left handed pitcher with 6 pitches whose FB was easily in the mid 90s. He looked to be a #2 at worse. And he has yet to make an impact even as a bullpen pitcher.

 

When your 45, thats young! In the scenario proposed, you'd have Braun, Schafer/Marte, Aoki, Green/Olt, SS?, Weeks, Gamel/Morris, Lucroy/Maldonado. Rotation of Gallardo, Fiers ,Estrada, ?, ?, and Axford and a bullpen that could not be worse than this years. Plus a boatload of pitching prospects. Maybe I'm seeing the glass half full. I would be interested in your take on the second wave failure endaround.

[trwi7]

We didn't have a second wave because they were traded for Marcum and Greinke.

[monty57]

Paul's plan gives us a team of Braun, Lucroy, Weeks, Gallardo, Axford, Estrada, and no one else with any sort of proven track record for major league success -- a glorified KC Royals of the past couple years: loads of prospects but anyone with any solid experience quickly earns his way to a better team for yet more prospects (the start of a vicious cycle that many teams have a tough time breaking).

 

The only player he mentioned trading who will be with us beyond 2013 is Ramirez. If we could land Olt in a Greinke deal, he is a Top 50 prospect who should be ready to play next year. We could let Green get everyday playing time for the remainder of this season to help us see what we have in him. If he knocks the cover off the ball, Olt can start next year in AAA. If not, Olt can be our opening day 3B next year. Meanwhile, the young pitching we'd get back for Ramirez could bolster the young pitching we already have, leading us to a situation in the not-too-distant future where we'd have an excess of good, young, inexpensive pitching, which is never a bad problem to have.

 

Hart only has a season left on his contract. While I like him, Aoki is putting up good numbers in RF for 10% of Hart's cost, and Gamel will be back next year at 5% of Hart's cost. If we could bring back a top prospect at a position of need and save the $10.333MM we'll owe Hart, we should do it. His trade value is high now, and should remain high through this offseason. Due to the new CBA, if we wait until next season, his trade value will plummet.

 

The offense will definitely take a hit (no pun intended) next year without Ramirez and Hart, but I believe freeing up $40MM over two years and bringing in top young talent would be worth it. As to the "viscious cycle" you mentioned, I don't see it happening. I think it's much more likely that Melvin would offer Olt and others a Braun/Lucroy-type extension early in their tenure in order to keep them around more than the six years we'd already have them, becoming new "core" players. I like the thought of occasionally trading away useful vets when we have good, young players to replace them, but trading a bunch of guys all at once to infuse young talent into the system should be a one-time thing, which was brought about by Melvin signing a bunch of players whose contracts all end at the same time.

 

In other words, we're in kind of a unique situation, and what Melvin does now can help determine the future path of the team. I think the best action will be to trade away some of our "chips" now for top young talent, let that talent gel next year, and look to field a playoff-competitive team again in 2014. We will likely see a decline in attendance next year no matter what. Brewer fans began flocking to the stadium when our top prospects (Fielder, Weeks) started moving onto the MLB roster, so I don't believe the conventional wisdom that fans will only show up if we continue to pay vets top dollar. If we can bring back guys like Olt in trade, we can market to the fans that they need to come out to see this kid (and other young players) play.

[endaround]

We didn't have a second wave because they were traded for Marcum and Greinke.

I wished we traded Salome and Gamel in 2009 for those guys.

[paul253]

Like I said.....Melvin needs to make a plan. Up til now, his plan has been "win now at all costs" every year. It worked ok in 2008. It got us to the playoffs and probably increased the fan base, but the team went nowhere after that because of a lack of pitching. It worked really well last year but has failed miserably this year. I'm really worried that we no longer have enough at the major league and minor league levels to "win now" for quite awhile. That's why you need the influx of talent. Getting the guys I mentioned (Olt, Lee, Gould, Marte and Heredia) would be the influx of talent I am talking about. You're probably going to have to punt on next year but after that you are set up much better to win consistently than you are now. Especially with how much money you saved by eliminating the contracts of Greinke, Marcum, KRod, Ramirez, and Hart.

 

The "window" has passed, especially with Greinke's likely departure. Whether Melvin likes to admit it or not the Brewers cannot field a playoff caliber team with the players that will be on their roster next season. There is not enough talent, especially in the rotation, and the minor leagues are still too bare to provide that needed punch next season. So make a long term plan with 2014 as your starting point.

[adambr2]

I'd pretty convinced that after K-Rod's embarrassment tonight, he contains very little value at this point.