Melvin and Roenicke Get Extensions

[BrewerTerp]

I'm not a RR fan due to his style of management. Still, I don't have faith that we would be able to acquire a better skipper so this extension is OK in my book.

[The stache]

There's the double edged sword, Brewerterp. I'm not completely sold on Roenicke managing the team long term, but I'm not sure if there is anybody out there that I would like in his place. I can't really complain about a problem if I have no suggestions on how to fix it.

 

I like Ron Roenicke as a person, and I temper some of my frustrations born from his management style with the realization that he's only in his second year as a MLB skipper. I highly doubt that Tony LaRussa was the Hall of Famer he is now when he broke into the big leagues. Ron will learn, and improve over time.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Are you forgetting that Melvin came in at the end of the '02 season, proceeded to clean up that mess he was given, and then build the team back up into a winner? Why can't he do that again if put in that position? I'm not sure it'll come to the point where a total rebuild is necessary, but he's shown he can build a winner. The win-now approach actually has a lot to do with Attanasio's influence. The guy loves winning. It's not all Melvin. I approve the win-now approach he's used the last few years. It got us the best season of my lifetime, and a deep playoff run. In the next few years I might think differently, but we'll just wait and see. There's talk that because Melvin was named President of Baseball Operations, that he'll be allowed to pick his successor. He would likely be GM until he decides to step down, and then pick his guy, and continue to stay in the front office. Attanasio really likes him, and trusts him to run things.

Yes, I'm completely forgetting that.

 

I figured posting something like what I did would open this oh-too-familiar Pandora's Box. You can be both a huge Brewers fan & still believe the team would/could be better off with a different GM.

 

Not saying you can't, just don't agree with your rationale. I see no reason to believe that Melvin can't successfully rebuild the team again if it comes to that. A lot of what he's done has to do with the philosophy of Attanasio. He is an owner that wants to win, and now is the time to do it. If things keep going this way the best route is to be a seller at the deadline, but again that's not Melvin's call alone. If were are close enough to compete, Attanasio will want to make moves to stay in it. That's just how it is. Now that Melvin has this extension, I really believe that he would make moves to sell this year and try to build the team more for a few years down the road. It makes sense. That being said, Melvin has done a good job in keeping the Brewers in contention. Yeah, there were definitely other ways to go about things the last few years, but that was our owner's philosophy. Melvin did a good job doing what he had to do to put a winner on the field. I don't agree with every single move he's made, but I'm happy with the results. I just don't see any reason to believe that he couldn't also rebuild the team if Attanasio wanted to go that direction. I'm not saying that someone else can't do the job, I just believe in Melvin, because I haven't been given a reason not to.

[Nottso]

Melvin yay.

Roenicke nay.

I'm exactly the opposite.

 

I'm ready for Melvin's tenure as GM to be over, he just isn't a long-term builder, he's a win-now/patcher. He's gotten decent to good results with that style, but he's left the Brewers in a really bad position in doing so. I would've rather had a new GM be the one to come in & clean up this mess; I just fear Melvin will continue to make bad long-term decisions.

 

Are you forgetting that Melvin came in at the end of the '02 season, proceeded to clean up that mess he was given, and then build the team back up into a winner? Why can't he do that again if put in that position? I'm not sure it'll come to the point where a total rebuild is necessary, but he's shown he can build a winner. The win-now approach actually has a lot to do with Attanasio's influence. The guy loves winning. It's not all Melvin. I approve the win-now approach he's used the last few years. It got us the best season of my lifetime, and a deep playoff run. In the next few years I might think differently, but we'll just wait and see. There's talk that because Melvin was named President of Baseball Operations, that he'll be allowed to pick his successor. He would likely be GM until he decides to step down, and then pick his guy, and continue to stay in the front office. Attanasio really likes him, and trusts him to run things.

 

Melvin didn't inherit a mess, though, and he certainly didn't clean up anything. Melvin inherited the best farm system in all of baseball. Dean Taylor inherited what was known as the worst farm system in MLB from Sal Bando and built it into the best farm system in 3 short years with the help of Jack Z. Then Taylor got hosed and Melvin was hired.

 

Since then, Dean Taylor has been hired by KC who had the worst farm system in MLB at the time of Taylor's hire. In a very short time, Taylor has built the best farm in MLB in KC and the crew is back to having the worst.

 

Melvin needs to go.

[Ennder]

Melvin didn't inherit a mess, though, and he certainly didn't clean up anything. Melvin inherited the best farm system in all of baseball.

 

This is just wrong, our minor league system was pretty terrible when he came in. Yes we had a couple big name prospects but it was still a really bad system overall, easily bottom half of the league. Melvin inherited one of the 3 or 4 worst franchises in baseball and he managed to turn it around. We were the Pirates back then and we easily could still be the Pirates.

[Invader3K]

I'm OK with both extensions. I think people expecting more from a mid market MLB GM and manager are just asking for unrealistic goals.

[logan82]

I am pretty disgusted with the handling of young players last year and this year so far. I am not sure which one to blame more. Probably Melvin but the manager wanted a true cleanup guy for this year so I put a lot of the Ramirez contract on him. The Kotsay debacle in the playoffs is unforgivable.

[fondybrewfan]

What young players have been handled so poorly? Its not like any of these guys are Top 50 prospects that he is "screwing up" They are borderline guys that may or may not turn into useful players. I would tend to go to the veterans in that situation too. I assume you are referring to Green for the most part.

[TheCrew07]

Melvin had very little to do with building the farm system with the exception of being smart enough to retain Jack Z when he was hired, Z was actually Taylor's hire and was already doing his thing when Melvin arrived.

 

I think it's unrealistic to believe that he couldn't have done much better than he's done with 2 HOF caliber players gifted to him and playing together from 2007-2011. Yes he's traded for some big name players and made the playoffs twice, but where's the depth, where's any kind of talent cycle to keep a run going?

 

How's his overall record in Free Agency? Every GM is going to miss on a couple of players but what he's done without escalating the payroll every single year? How good of a GM do you have to be to waste money?

 

If we want to talk about realism, realistically he should only have 1 playoff appearance as we don't get there in 2008 without the Mets collapsing for the 2nd consecutive year. Going into that last week hardly anyone on this forum thought we still had a chance, realistically it took a history making collapse for the Brewers to get in the playoffs that season.

 

The young vs veteran player and short-term vs long-term thing has been debated ad nausem on this forum going back to Gamel in 2009 and Linebrink in 2007, there are plenty of legit arguments and concerns with how the team has been operating since 2007. It's one thing to agree to disagree, it's another to continually dismiss valid criticisms.

 

The extension was inevitable after the Marcum and Greinke trades but fear of the unknown isn't much of a justification for an extension. Yes one can do always do worse but one can always do better as well, to suggest there is little room for improvement implies the results have been near perfection, which certainly isn't the case given 2009, 2010, and 2012 so far.

[Ennder]

Melvin is far from perfect but your expectations probably aren't very realistic either if you think 2 playoff appearances in 4 years and a competitive team for the past 7 years is somehow a failure. This is the second best stretch this team has ever had after all. He has made some moves I absolutely hated, some that I liked, he has found nuggets I wouldn't have expected to be major league quality players. He has gone out and gotten what the team needed in general even if I don't always agree with the players he picked. He has traded away talent the majority of which never turned into anything so it has been hard to complain about most of them at this point. The team has a bit of a hole in the minor league system right now mostly because of the Sabathia/Sheets debacle but overall I think the organization is in a pretty good state as a new crop of young talent should be arriving in 2014+2015.

[Thurston Fluff]

Melvin had very little to do with building the farm system with the exception of being smart enough to retain Jack Z when he was hired, Z was actually Taylor's hire and was already doing his thing when Melvin arrived.

 

While he deserves his share of the credit I think you give Jack too much credit. It was Melvin who hired the scouts and the coaches. Jack managed to get some nice positional talent but no pitching to speak of. It is no coincidence that the pitching prospects got better once he left.

It also should mentioned there is more to building a winning team than just drafting well. If there wasn't Taylor would still be here. Two of Jack's three years in Seattle so far ended with a worse record than any team Melvin ever had here. Not even Melvin's first year was as bad as Jack's last two seasons. There is something to be said for finishing the product.

[PeaveyFury]

= Jack managed to get some nice positional talent but no pitching to speak of. It is no coincidence that the pitching prospects got better once he left.

 

Yep. One could certainly argue that Jack Z's failures with pitching have forced Melvin's hand in having to acquire pitching via trades and free agency, thus depleting resources.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Melvin didn't inherit a mess, though, and he certainly didn't clean up anything. Melvin inherited the best farm system in all of baseball.

 

This is just wrong, our minor league system was pretty terrible when he came in. Yes we had a couple big name prospects but it was still a really bad system overall, easily bottom half of the league. Melvin inherited one of the 3 or 4 worst franchises in baseball and he managed to turn it around. We were the Pirates back then and we easily could still be the Pirates.

 

Exactly. To say Melvin inherited a top farm system is completely untrue and ignorant. The farm system was pretty bad, and the team was worse. Take a look back, there wasn't much at all to show for the farm system he was left with. Take a look at the guys who are on the 40 man roster this year he drafted. Fiers, Gallardo, McClendon, Rogers, Scarpetta, Lucroy, Farris, Gamel, Green, Weeks, Braun, Gindl, Schafer, Kjeldgaard. And he also signed Manzanillo and Peralta as amateur free agents, and used some of his guys to acquire the like of CC and Greinke. That's pretty good. He didn't really end up getting much out of the guys he was left with when he took over the team.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Melvin is far from perfect but your expectations probably aren't very realistic either if you think 2 playoff appearances in 4 years and a competitive team for the past 7 years is somehow a failure. This is the second best stretch this team has ever had after all. He has made some moves I absolutely hated, some that I liked, he has found nuggets I wouldn't have expected to be major league quality players. He has gone out and gotten what the team needed in general even if I don't always agree with the players he picked. He has traded away talent the majority of which never turned into anything so it has been hard to complain about most of them at this point. The team has a bit of a hole in the minor league system right now mostly because of the Sabathia/Sheets debacle but overall I think the organization is in a pretty good state as a new crop of young talent should be arriving in 2014+2015.

 

Completely agree with this. I feel the same way. Especially the first point. No GM is perfect, but he's done a great job with what he was given. He led us to our best stretch in years and years, and has us in a pretty good position right now. Couldn't ask for much more honestly.

[adambr2]

All I ask of Melvin (and Mark A.) is that if this season continues to go downhill, just accept that what it is, move on, and try to put yourself in the best position to win in the future. Don't compound the problem by unloading one of your system arms for a stopgap SS or 1B in July when you're 10 games under .500 just to try to create the illusion that you still think you can win this year.

[monkeyman343434]

I completely agree with Adam.

 

I think that's my main complaint about Melvin. It seems like every year they "try to go for it" even if the team is more than a few pieces away. It's not bad to go into a season, hoping for the best, but having a roster of a few guys breaking in and then eyeing the following season to really go for it, instead of overpaying stop-gap pieces to look like they have a legit shot of winning that current year.

 

I don't want to turn this into a trade rumors/ideas thread, but the Rangers have to be thinking about dealing Jurickson Profar as they have Kinsler and Andrus for the forseeable future. What would it take for the Brewers to get him? Would Greinke-Profar work if the Brewers don't think they'll resign him? I'm guessing the Rangers might not even do that, as they'd receive no FA compensation for him.

[Ennder]

All I ask of Melvin (and Mark A.) is that if this season continues to go downhill, just accept that what it is, move on, and try to put yourself in the best position to win in the future. Don't compound the problem by unloading one of your system arms for a stopgap SS or 1B in July when you're 10 games under .500 just to try to create the illusion that you still think you can win this year.

 

 

All I can ask of Melvin is don't over-react to a season where almost every player on the team has underperformed and make a stupid rash decision and give up on the next few years just because baseball is an insanely streaky game. Trading our best players for prospects because the team under performs for half a seasons would be terrible.

[adambr2]

All I ask of Melvin (and Mark A.) is that if this season continues to go downhill, just accept that what it is, move on, and try to put yourself in the best position to win in the future. Don't compound the problem by unloading one of your system arms for a stopgap SS or 1B in July when you're 10 games under .500 just to try to create the illusion that you still think you can win this year.

 

 

All I can ask of Melvin is don't over-react to a season where almost every player on the team has underperformed and make a stupid rash decision and give up on the next few years just because baseball is an insanely streaky game. Trading our best players for prospects because the team under performs for half a seasons would be terrible.

 

Well for one, I think you are overestimating the talent level on this year's team. This team as currently constructed simply isn't nearly as good as the 2011 team. Guys like Weeks and Morgan have underperformed and should improve, but I would be surprised if this team had an insanely hot August in them like last year. Not saying it's out of the question, but there are some areas talent-wise where we have severely regressed.

 

Also, no one is talking about trading Braun, Gallardo, Lucroy, etc. Greinke and Marcum, yes, but these are guys who aren't under contract beyond this year anyway, so trading them certainly wouldn't be construed as giving up on the next few years.

 

And as I said right at the beginning, "if the season continues to go downhill". I wasn't talking about having a fire sale in May.

[jjfanec]

 

Well for one, I think you are overestimating the talent level on this year's team. This team as currently constructed simply isn't nearly as good as the 2011 team. Guys like Weeks and Morgan have underperformed and should improve, but I would be surprised if this team had an insanely hot August in them like last year. Not saying it's out of the question, but there are some areas talent-wise where we have severely regressed.

 

Also, no one is talking about trading Braun, Gallardo, Lucroy, etc. Greinke and Marcum, yes, but these are guys who aren't under contract beyond this year anyway, so trading them certainly wouldn't be construed as giving up on the next few years.

 

And as I said right at the beginning, "if the season continues to go downhill". I wasn't talking about having a fire sale in May.

 

Look at the lineup to see how people have under-performed

Weeks - His issues have been like replacing an All-Star caliber player with someone worse than Bentacourt.

Morgan - He wasnt going to replicate last year but he has been awful

Hart - He is under-performing. He is coming around a little but not much

Ramirez - Even worse than his usual slow start

Then you add in season ending injuries to Gonzalez (who was providing some nice pop for a SS) and Gamel

 

Then look at the rotation

Gallardo has under-performed

Narveson is out for the year

Wolf was not going to repeat last year but he has been rough

The bullpen has a couple guys who have been much worse although I think the struggles of KRod are not super surprising

 

Simply put this team only has a couple guys performing better than expect - out two catchers. A couple of our All-Stars are performing like they should - Braun and Greinke. I guess Marcum could be considered a guy who is out performing expectations somewhat.

 

Losing Gamel and Gonzalez from our positions of least depth (and you can blame Melvin for that) really killed our lineup. Having those two as our 6 and 7 hitters instead of Ishy and Ceaser is a huge blow

[JohnBriggs12]

"Losing Gamel and Gonzalez from our positions of least depth really killed our lineup".

 

Well Gonzalez was off to a hot start and definitely showed pop, but he's not a great offensive player by any means. Gamel was hitting .246 and slugging .348. We really don't know what we are missing with him gone.

 

Losing Fielder killed the lineup. Trading Lawrie and Escobar for one run at it killed the lineup too. They are missing Gomez too. He had been a bright spot this year.

 

Pitchers under and over perform at various points in the season. The key underperformer has been Veras, who had big shoes to fill in Saito and Hawkins.

 

Weeks should be better as its hard to be that bad. What you see in Ramirez, might be what you get.

[Ennder]

Look this is how teams struggle every year, you can look around the league and find 4 or 5 other teams just like the Brewers. They seem to only score runs when they give up a lot of runs, they aren't winning a lot of close games, seems like most of the team has struggled to get things going. This is the Red Sox, this is the Angels, this is the Brewers, this is the Phillies. Meanwhile some teams seem to always get just enough every day and are winning a ton of close games, this is the Nationals, the Orioles, the Dodgers. These things will even out some over time and now really isn't the time to panic.

 

The Brewers can't really sell off Aramis, they don't want to get rid of Braun or Lucroy. I should hope they are looking at extending Greinke and Gallardo if anything for the future. If we look dead in the water in mid June and they want to trade someone like Hart or Marcum who aren't really worth signing longer term I'm fine with it but that is only if a full month from now we are still sitting 7 or 8 games under .500. If the team turns it around at all they should not be sellers because the NL is not strong this year and it won't take much of a run at all to force our way into the playoff hunt.

[fondybrewfan]

Well they could trade Grienke and try to resign him in the offseason. There seems to be no chance of resigning him during the season so you might as well try to get some prospects for him. I doubt Grienke would be so off put by being traded that he wouldn't consider signing with MIL.

 

2012 has just been one colossal failure so far and no one really could have predicted so many players getting hurt and under performing. We literally have 5 or 6 guys out of a 25 man roster that I think have played to expectations or better. I am fully prepared to chalk up 2012 as just one of those years and do whatever you can to make 2013 better. I would say that if they don't make significant improvement by the end of June, Melvin needs to start unloading some pieces like Marcum, Hart, Grienke, Krod if the trade market allows it.

[Ennder]

I think you need to get blown away by a deal to trade Greinke with the new deal in place. Teams are just not going to pay as much for rentals when they can't get a pick in compensation and teams aren't going to be as willing to give up a legit player when they can get a guaranteed solid pick for him if they don't trade him.

[jjfanec]

"Losing Gamel and Gonzalez from our positions of least depth really killed our lineup".

 

Well Gonzalez was off to a hot start and definitely showed pop, but he's not a great offensive player by any means. Gamel was hitting .246 and slugging .348. We really don't know what we are missing with him gone.

 

Losing Fielder killed the lineup. Trading Lawrie and Escobar for one run at it killed the lineup too. They are missing Gomez too. He had been a bright spot this year.

 

Pitchers under and over perform at various points in the season. The key underperformer has been Veras, who had big shoes to fill in Saito and Hawkins.

 

Weeks should be better as its hard to be that bad. What you see in Ramirez, might be what you get.

 

Lawrie killed the lineup? Look at his numbers right now. I dont think not having his .708 OPS is killing us. It may hurt long term but his OPS is just slightly better than Ramirez's right now.

 

Gonzalez didnt need to be a great offensive player. If you look at his numbers before he got hurt he was one of the top 10 SS in baseball offensively. He was looking a lot like the 2007 version of himself. He was a big loss

 

Gamel wasnt a huge loss especially since Ishy has had a few nice games but I think long term is where that hurt.

[monty57]

I think you need to get blown away by a deal to trade Greinke with the new deal in place. Teams are just not going to pay as much for rentals when they can't get a pick in compensation and teams aren't going to be as willing to give up a legit player when they can get a guaranteed solid pick for him if they don't trade him.

 

This is going to be interesting, but I think that teams are still going to want to improve, and adding a piece like Grienke could be what wins a World Series. The Brewers wouldn't trade him for less than what they'd get in compensation at the end of the year, so in a case like Grienke, I think the buying team will just suck it up and make the trade to try to win it all, and not get picks at the end of the year.

 

Take Texas for example. They've now lost two years in a row and I'm sure they'd like to win. If they thought trading Profar for Grienke would get them a World Series win this year, would not getting draft picks hold them back?