Gamel's Injury (Torn ACL, needs surgery, likely done for year)

[rluzinski]

Well I feel terrible for Gamel, for whatever reason injuries just seem to keep getting in his way.

 

My opinions on the Brewer's training and medical staff are well known and reading this thread has put me in a rather foul mood so I'd rather not say anything I might regret.

 

edit. I have to say something because it's grating on me how dismissive some people can be with these injuries. It's unbelievable that a major league caliber trainer does not perform any kind of stability test on a knee after what appears to be a serious injury. It's not like Mat jumped up and ran back to the dugout, it looked horrible as I was watching it live, every subsequent replay looked bad, there was obviously something wrong. Out of common sense or maybe just respect for the athlete one would think that if a trainer wasn't sure he would do a stability test on the knee to see if there was any damage. They didn't do the test with Yo and they didn't do it with Gamel either because it's very obvious after doing such tests that an athlete shouldn't return to participation. It has nothing to do with hurting the ligament worse and everything to do with protecting the athlete's career and protecting them from a possible significant secondary injury.

 

I have worked in orthopedics for quite a long time and noted on my twitter feed that the training staff immediately did a stability test on his knee. I had a lot of people asking me not to jump to conclusions but it was 100% apparent that they were concerned with the stability of his ACL. Allowing him to jog to the dugout and take a swing in the batters circle is attributable to a high amount of adrenaline going through his system blocking out a good deal of the pain...and a young mans desire not to get pulled from a game. In my opinion the training staff handled this perfectly and there was no further damage that could have been done from a little jog and one swing. You have to let the athlete tell you what hurts and what doesn't feel right. He felt ok for jogging...but the rotation allowed by the torn ACL was felt during a swing...

Yes, it was quite clear from the TV that they checked the joint for stability. I was actually surprised by how hard the trainer was yanking on Gamel's knee.

[Roderick]

Screw you Brewers trainers/coaches.

qft

 

I see Green isn't exactly on fire in Nashville.

Actually, as Mass Haas points out in the MiLB Transactions thread...

 

Taylor Green, who's hit. 378 in his last ten games, probably never wished he was right-handed more than right now, should the Brewers go the Conrad route.

That's good news. I was just looking at his season average and OPS - must have started very cold.

 

As for worrying about ARam from 3B to 1B transition, I really don't see that as a big transition.

[monty57]

Well I feel terrible for Gamel, for whatever reason injuries just seem to keep getting in his way.

 

My opinions on the Brewer's training and medical staff are well known and reading this thread has put me in a rather foul mood so I'd rather not say anything I might regret.

 

edit. I have to say something because it's grating on me how dismissive some people can be with these injuries. It's unbelievable that a major league caliber trainer does not perform any kind of stability test on a knee after what appears to be a serious injury. It's not like Mat jumped up and ran back to the dugout, it looked horrible as I was watching it live, every subsequent replay looked bad, there was obviously something wrong. Out of common sense or maybe just respect for the athlete one would think that if a trainer wasn't sure he would do a stability test on the knee to see if there was any damage. They didn't do the test with Yo and they didn't do it with Gamel either because it's very obvious after doing such tests that an athlete shouldn't return to participation. It has nothing to do with hurting the ligament worse and everything to do with protecting the athlete's career and protecting them from a possible significant secondary injury.

 

I have worked in orthopedics for quite a long time and noted on my twitter feed that the training staff immediately did a stability test on his knee. I had a lot of people asking me not to jump to conclusions but it was 100% apparent that they were concerned with the stability of his ACL. Allowing him to jog to the dugout and take a swing in the batters circle is attributable to a high amount of adrenaline going through his system blocking out a good deal of the pain...and a young mans desire not to get pulled from a game. In my opinion the training staff handled this perfectly and there was no further damage that could have been done from a little jog and one swing. You have to let the athlete tell you what hurts and what doesn't feel right. He felt ok for jogging...but the rotation allowed by the torn ACL was felt during a swing...

 

It turns out that he didn't have a play on the final out, but could he have injured it further if he had to make a play / run around on the knee? In other words, even if he couldn't damage the ACL further, does running on a knee with a torn ACL increase the risk of damaging other things (like the MCL)?

[monty57]

As to how we cover the position, I guess I'm for a fix which allows someone who can help the team in the future to get additional playing time. This could mean Aoki getting more PT in RF (Hart to 1B), bringing up Green or someone else, or maybe trading for someone who has more than a few months left on their contract (i.e. trading Morgan for a younger 1B/corner OF).

 

I'm not really big on making a short-term move, especially if it means trading away prospects for that short-term fix. We're already going to be scrambling to put a team together next offseason so I don't want to make a rash decision now which could make things worse.

 

I'm also not big on handing the position to Ishikawa/Conrad. If we're going to do that, we might not be too far from calling teams to see what they'd trade us for Greinke, Marcum and K-Rod.

[PrinceFielderx1]

Brewers will call up Brooks Conrad from AAA Nashville to play 1B.

 

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/150075995.html#!page=0&pageSize=10&sort=newestfirst

[PrinceEatMeat]

Brewers will call up Brooks Conrad from AAA Nashville to play 1B.

 

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/150075995.html#!page=0&pageSize=10&sort=newestfirst

 

He's not being called up to be the 1B. Yes, he may play there some. But really he was just the best option to add to the bench. So I don't think the "to play 1B" should be used. At most, he'll just platoon with Ishikawa for now until Hart can start taking those starts at 1B. I think Conrad's real value will be backing up 2B and 3B, and as a RH pinch-hitter.

[nate82]

Doesn't Branyan have an out clause in his minor league contract with the Yankees that should be coming up soon? Derek Lee is still out there though I wouldn't be really thrilled with Lee. I wonder if Vlad could play 1B?

[ninja33]

Doesn't Branyan have an out clause in his minor league contract with the Yankees that should be coming up soon? Derek Lee is still out there though I wouldn't be really thrilled with Lee. I wonder if Vlad could play 1B?

 

If he doesn't ask for that much $$/the brewers have enough of it, I don't have a huge problem with Derrek Lee (minus that whole cubs thing). I think a .260/.330/.440 line is a very reasonable expectation and really not that out of line from what most had Gamel projected for (the difference is thats probably Lee's ceiling, whereas Gamel had a higher upside). For this season, I don't think there's a huge difference between Lee and Gamel.

 

Not saying I want the Brewers to go sign Lee tomorrow, I'd rather have things work out in house (Hart or Aramis to 1B)...but it's not the end of the world if Derrek Lee is at 1B.

[rluzinski]

Doesn't Branyan have an out clause in his minor league contract with the Yankees that should be coming up soon? Derek Lee is still out there though I wouldn't be really thrilled with Lee. I wonder if Vlad could play 1B?

 

If he doesn't ask for that much $$/the brewers have enough of it, I don't have a huge problem with Derrek Lee (minus that whole cubs thing). I think a .260/.330/.440 line is a very reasonable expectation and really not that out of line from what most had Gamel projected for (the difference is thats probably Lee's ceiling, whereas Gamel had a higher upside). For this season, I don't think there's a huge difference between Lee and Gamel.

Lee's ZiPS projection is .260/.328/.433, so that is certainly reasonable. He also appears to still be a little above average defensively. That said, if he expects to get paid $5+ mil, no thanks.

[chickinbrickin]

For all those wondering why or how the trainers let Gamel play that final out it is pretty simple. I blew out my knee when I was younger and it doesn't really hurt all that much. You feel a weird burn when the tear happens during the tweak of the knee but you can still put weight on the leg and even move around pretty well. The knee just feels really weak and loose.

 

Gamel probably knew something wasn't quite right but he probably told the staff it wasn't all that bad and he would give it a go.

 

All in all this is a huge blow. I am in favor of the Hart at 1st and Aoki in RF with Gomez/Morgan platoon in CF. We get an instant improvement in RF in terms of defense. Hart can go where he belongs. It only makes sense the laziest guy on the team plays the least demanding postion.

[adambr2]

Very nervous that it sounds like Ishikawa is going to be our everyday first baseman.

 

First base is a premium hitters position. When your first baseman is the weakest bat in your lineup, that's not good.

[endaround]

For all those wondering why or how the trainers let Gamel play that final out it is pretty simple. I blew out my knee when I was younger and it doesn't really hurt all that much. You feel a weird burn when the tear happens during the tweak of the knee but you can still put weight on the leg and even move around pretty well. The knee just feels really weak and loose.

 

Gamel probably knew something wasn't quite right but he probably told the staff it wasn't all that bad and he would give it a go.

 

All in all this is a huge blow. I am in favor of the Hart at 1st and Aoki in RF with Gomez/Morgan platoon in CF. We get an instant improvement in RF in terms of defense. Hart can go where he belongs. It only makes sense the laziest guy on the team plays the least demanding postion.

Not sure how Hart is lazy. And it makes no sense to degrade your best trading chip by moving him out of RF.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Very nervous that it sounds like Ishikawa is going to be our everyday first baseman.

 

First base is a premium hitters position. When your first baseman is the weakest bat in your lineup, that's not good.

 

He'll be the everyday 1B for about a week. Then Hart will start getting playing time there, because Ishikawa will be playing horribly.

[chadomac]

The Gamel injury is just a huge blow to the offense in my mind. I really liked what I had seen so far from Gamel. I expected him to improve and put up pretty good numbers this year. None of it matters though if our pitching doesn't improve. Tough start to the season. I'm usually a pretty optimistic fan and the Suppan loss coupled with the Gamel injury has made it into a dark week for me as a Brewer fan.

[clancyphile]

Did we just see the first bite of The Curse of Prince as it may pertain to first base?

 

That doom and gloom aside, I think the Crew might have been better served to move Hart to first and have Aoki take over full-time in center (moving to right against left-handed pitchers while Gomez played center), while dropping Weeks in the order, then to call up Conrad for now.

[longball04]

The Gamel injury is unfortunate, and sadly, probably nullifies his chances for next year. The Brewers will be forced now to make a season long decision at 1st. It can't be a constant platoon there. It is not good for defensive purposes and the position is a power position. Ishikawa is a good defender, but there is a reason why no one else wanted him as an every day first baseman. He provides average offensive production at best. Corey CAN play first base and likes playing first. For the comment on lazy, I think his long strides make him look lazy. But he definitely is an average to slightly below average defensive right fielder. He doesn't have a plus arm. He gets horrible jumps on the ball and takes terrible angles. You can utilize his 6'6" frame at 1st. He has the power for the position and he isn't going to be any worse than Gamel at 1st defensively. He used to play the position.

 

The only problem right now, is that Ron never threw him out there for a game prior to the injury just to see what he had. We have a log jam in the outfield right now. Conrad isn't being called up to be our first base backup. Conrad should be called up to give Weeks a couple days off because Izturis shouldn't be on the roster. Heck, I would even be for starting to have Ramirez make the transition to 1st before making Ishikawa our every day first baseman. At some time this organization is going to have to stop settling for "well we have a platoon" at multiple positions.

[FVBrewerFan]

I'm concerned RR will tinker every day with who's playing where, and that's not ideal. He needs to decide what direction he wants to go, and stick with it for a while. And hopefully Ishikawa at 1B isn't part of that equation.

 

I would like to see Aoki start in CF for a month, at least. Then I would like to see Green or Gindl come up and play full time, and move Ramirez or Hart to 1B. Conrad should be on the bench, and Ishikawa should be DFA- especially if Green comes up. If it's Gindl, then try to trade Morgan. He's the 4th best defensive CF they have (including Shaeffer), and not much better (or any better) at the plate than the other options.

[Nottso]

I'll take the following, please.

 

1. Aoki RF

2. Weeks 2b

3. Braun LF

4. Ramirez 3b

5. Hart 1b

6. Lucroy C

7. Gomez/Morgan CF

8. Gonzalez SS

9. Pitcher

[igor67]

I'm pro-Gindl but his slow start makes it pretty hard to justify calling him up now to see if he can contribute. I think you stick with Gomez/ Morgan in CF and shift Aoki to RF because of his arm and Gomez superior CF defense. I wonder in the long run if Hart holds up better at 1st anyway?

[monty57]

And it makes no sense to degrade your best trading chip by moving him out of RF.

 

A lot of trade value is perception. I doubt that other GMs would perceive Hart to have less trade value because he was moved to 1B due to an emergency need. In fact, I think it would increase his trade value in that he could be viewed as a two position player. I think he would only be downgraded if he was moved to 1B because the Brewers didn't think he could play RF anymore.

 

I'll take the following, please.

 

1. Aoki RF

2. Weeks 2b

3. Braun LF

4. Ramirez 3b

5. Hart 1b

6. Lucroy C

7. Gomez/Morgan CF

8. Gonzalez SS

9. Pitcher

 

That's probably our best lineup, but I'd guess that Roenicke would put either Lucroy or the CF platoon at #8. He likes the #8 hitter to be able to clear the pitcher spot, and Gonzalez is viewed as more of a power-hitting SS than an OBP guy, so Roenicke likes him in the 5-7 spots, which are more "RBI spots." Basically, the same thing he did last year with Yuni.

[3and2Fastball]

Did we just see the first bite of The Curse of Prince as it may pertain to first base?

.

 

Cursed because we only offered him $100 million?

[JohnBriggs12]

I just posted this in the rumors thread, but has anyone else noticed the year Matt LaPorta is having in AAA? He's hitting .371/.447/.742 with 9 HR already and 20 RBI for Columbus.

[WV Brew]

If the Brewers get swept by the Giants, a very real possibility given the pitchers the Giants are throwing out there, they will be 6 games below .500. Is it too early to think about selling? The playoffs are really going to start looking very remote. Weeks, Hart, K-Rod, Greinke and Marcum all could potentially fetch something in return.

[3and2Fastball]

yes it is way too early to start thinking about selling, in large part because of ticket sales/public relations/public perception.

 

I see Mark A as being a very reluctant seller anyways. In fact I wouldn't be shocked if the Brewers are never sellers during the entire time Mark A owns the franchise. It'd be much more likely that the Brewers will overpay for a 1B and starting pitcher in order to try to get back in it, furthering mortgaging the future with the quote by Mark A being "we owe it to our fans...."

[owbc]

Selling? Really?

 

They are 2 games out of the second wild card. Yes, the division title is looking lost, but all the other WC contenders have their own set of problems. There is still time to trade for help and time for some of the slow starters to turn it around. The Brewers always lose games on the road, especially on the west coast. Not to mention they started 14-20 last year.

 

Way, way too early to panic. If they are still under .500 in 2 months, then it will be a concern. But even a .500 record at the ASB isn't the end of the season with the new playoff format.