Gamel's Injury (Torn ACL, needs surgery, likely done for year)

[patrickgpe]

Sounds like Green may get a shot at replacing Gamel, according to Buster Olney.

 

https://twitter.com/#!/Buster_ESPN/status/197834370814455810

if this was true he would have been called up for friday. i think option 1 is move hart, #2 is sign derrek lee.

[ilikewisco]

Typical Gamel, wasting his opportunities /blue

 

Haven't gotten to watch much Brewers so far, but it sounded like Gamel was proving his critics wrong in terms of maturity (me included). Too bad for him, hopefully he can bounce back next year and have even more motivation.

[brewers19]

This injury was the result of Gamel running hard but not in control. Thats sort of instinctive in some guys but not in others. He was also new to the position, and the angles are similar but not the same and its opposite to what the 3rd baseman would do. So while it was unlucky that the ACL snapped, if he doesn't take a bad step, it doesn't happen.

Wait, are you seriously blaming this on Gamel being an inexperienced first baseman? Something about avoiding running into walls on a foul pop up down the right field line is vastly different than avoiding running into walls on a foul pop up down the left field line? Hell, Yonder Alonso is a natural first baseman and even he ended up faceplanting into the front row last night. It's was an unlucky injury, plain and simple.

[ninja33]

Sounds like Green may get a shot at replacing Gamel, according to Buster Olney.

 

https://twitter.com/#!/Buster_ESPN/status/197834370814455810

if this was true he would have been called up for friday. i think option 1 is move hart, #2 is sign derrek lee.

 

they called up Conrad for Friday and Green will be working at 1B in AAA in the meantime, so it could still very well be true. I think they go with what igor outlined above. Conrad/Ishikawa for now (yes, yuck. i hope it's not for that long either) and get Green working on it in AAA as well as Hart taking a lot of reps in practice. Conrad may not play 1st at all, he may just be a RHB off the bench (finally!!) and a backup for Ramirez/Weeks that isn't cesar izturis (finally!!!).

 

I think while they test Green out at 1st in AAA we'll be seeing a lot of Ishikawa. If that's the case, I at least hope they platoon him and get Hart some run at 1B against LHB. It's not the best case scenario (because it involves Ishikawa), but Hart/Aoki against LHB and Ishikawa/Hart against RHB makes sense. As Hart (or Green in AAA) become more comfortable, hopefully they take it over full time

[SRB]

Terrible news for Gamel, but as much upside as I want to believe he has, he still wasn't getting it done this season. .641 OPS in 75 PA.

 

Hart to 1B, Aoki to RF would probably be an upgrade. In fact, Ishikawa at 1B is very likely an upgrade. At least compared to what Gamel has actually produced in the majors so far in his career.

[TooLiveBrew]

The image I can't shake from last night's game is of Gamel jogging to the dugout after the end of the 1st inning on a severely injured knee (or an injured knee that jogging to the dugout turned into a severely injured knee). With just one more day to review his situation, Gamel's knee has been put in an immobilizing brace -- and the team didn't exercise enough caution last night to just help him off the field immediately after the injury?

Come on. I'm no trainer, but jogging back to the dugout didn't escalate his injury from "bad" to "season ending." In fact, it likely had no effect at all.

 

I'm sure the trainers checked his knee, didn't detect anything right then and there, so they gave him a chance to test it out, probably even saying, "Look, if it hurts at all, don't be a hero." He tested it, it hurt, and he sat down.

I'm no trainer, either... which is why I was concerned that jogging back to the dugout might not have been good for the knee. If that's wrong, then I'm wrong. I'm definitely good at being wrong

 

I do understand that once the ligament is torn, it's torn & you can't do any more damage to it. I guess chalk me up as one more who's a little gunshy about trusting the Brewers' medical staff, whether that's fair or not.

[rluzinski]

This team is peppered with below average defenders but we are going to put Green at 1B? The makeup of this team is just getting weirder and weirder.

[Blancofan1]

If Gamel is put on the 60 day DL, am I correct in thinking that opens a spot on the 40 man roster? Always have trouble remembering all of the roster rules.

[Baldkin]

If Gamel is put on the 60 day DL, am I correct in thinking that opens a spot on the 40 man roster? Always have trouble remembering all of the roster rules.

 

Yes, correct. 60 day means an extra 40 man slot.

[TheCrew07]

Well I feel terrible for Gamel, for whatever reason injuries just seem to keep getting in his way.

 

My opinions on the Brewer's training and medical staff are well known and reading this thread has put me in a rather foul mood so I'd rather not say anything I might regret.

 

edit. I have to say something because it's grating on me how dismissive some people can be with these injuries. It's unbelievable that a major league caliber trainer does not perform any kind of stability test on a knee after what appears to be a serious injury. It's not like Mat jumped up and ran back to the dugout, it looked horrible as I was watching it live, every subsequent replay looked bad, there was obviously something wrong. Out of common sense or maybe just respect for the athlete one would think that if a trainer wasn't sure he would do a stability test on the knee to see if there was any damage. They didn't do the test with Yo and they didn't do it with Gamel either because it's very obvious after doing such tests that an athlete shouldn't return to participation. It has nothing to do with hurting the ligament worse and everything to do with protecting the athlete's career and protecting them from a possible significant secondary injury.

 

If the Brewers have one of the best medical teams in baseball then injury prevention and treatment in MLB is seriously behind the times, like by 20 years. Yes baseball trainers won't see many ACLs and concussions, but that's no excuse not to be properly trained in dealing with the most catastrophic sports injuries in general. I've honestly viewed these issues in a very negative light because I expect a professional organization to take better care of their athletes than we would at a high school level, but that simply hasn't been the case. There isn't any middle ground here, there is no such thing as "means well", either an athlete is healthy enough to participate or they aren't, and it's not the coaches' call, not at any of level of sport. The liability is too great so athletic trainers make all those calls, even at the high school level, we should be past the days of "go out there and see how it feels". It's simply ridiculous, you don't do that with knees, hips, shoulders, or head injuries and in baseball I wouldn't mess around with elbows either. If you aren't sure, do a damn test, if the test is inconclusive do an MRI, $500 is nothing to a professional franchise in any sport. Regardless don't put the athlete back out into competition until you are 100% sure that he or she is healthy enough to participate safely.

[RobDeer 45]

This news, along with Soup taking it to us, pretty much makes me want to puke.

[davego]

Im sure this is dumb, but any thoughts on Carlos Lee back to MKE?

[JohnBriggs12]

This injury was the result of Gamel running hard but not in control. Thats sort of instinctive in some guys but not in others. He was also new to the position, and the angles are similar but not the same and its opposite to what the 3rd baseman would do. So while it was unlucky that the ACL snapped, if he doesn't take a bad step, it doesn't happen.

Wait, are you seriously blaming this on Gamel being an inexperienced first baseman? Something about avoiding running into walls on a foul pop up down the right field line is vastly different than avoiding running into walls on a foul pop up down the left field line? Hell, Yonder Alonso is a natural first baseman and even he ended up faceplanting into the front row last night. It's was an unlucky injury, plain and simple.

 

 

If you watched the play, Gamel was all out and that's what caused him to have to pull up awkwardly. Players have to be aware of how much room they have. It was the same "all out" type play that nearly caused him to separate his shoulder trying to get the Brewers a 5 run lead instead of a 4 run lead a week earlier. It's called awareness. Playing with "reckless abandon" might get you cheers but it comes with risks. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt by mentioning his inexperience at the position. And yes if you are used to the stands being on your right, there's an adjustment to having it be on your left. It may or may not have been a factor. What we do know is that Fielder doesn't put himself in that position and he never misses a game.

[JohnBriggs12]

I think the Green playing 1B at AAA is more an acknowledgment that they are ready to move on beyond Gamel next year. They still have Sean Halton at Nashville too and Hunter Morris at Huntsville. Any of those guys can still play their way into the picture with the Hart to first and Ramirez to first still viable too. Then there is the FA and trade market.

[Invader3K]

Im sure this is dumb, but any thoughts on Carlos Lee back to MKE?

 

I'd rather they try internal options like Green and Conrad first.

[dlk9s]

The obvious plan is to wait for Pujols to keep sucking for another couple months, then trade for him while getting the Angels to pay 80% of his salary.

[brewtown82]

I say we throw an outfielder over at first. There goes the playing time issue in the OF, and at least a serviceable bat at first.

[RobDeer 45]

Tony Plush seems like the logical person at first. He's got the best yapper on him. He'll be able to take people out of the game mentally while they are on 1st with him.

[3and2Fastball]

Hart at 1B does seem to make sense with Morgan & Aoki getting more playing time in the OF and either Gindl or Schaeffer up from AAA ball.

 

I'm not sure that Ron Roenicke will feel like Travis Ishikawa's sample of just 31 plate appearances is enough to prove that a .226 OBP won't cut it, but I've long been advocating that Brooks Conrad should replace Iskikawa on the roster. Not that I think Conrad is going to be raking in MLB, but he's more valuable than Ishikawa.

 

If Travis Ishikawa is going to receive significant playing time then you can pretty much kiss playoff hopes goodbye unless Greinke & Gallardo all of a sudden start pitching like Pedro Martinez and Roger Clemens

[PrinceEatMeat]

I think the Green playing 1B at AAA is more an acknowledgment that they are ready to move on beyond Gamel next year. They still have Sean Halton at Nashville too and Hunter Morris at Huntsville. Any of those guys can still play their way into the picture with the Hart to first and Ramirez to first still viable too. Then there is the FA and trade market.

 

It's not an acknowledgement of moving beyond Gamel. There's no way that's the case. They won't give up on him just because he got hurt. Green doesn't have the raw power to be a long-term answer at 1B. Basically, it's just Melvin wanting his best hitter in AAA to learn a position where he can actually be used in the Majors this season. No reason to waste him in AAA if there's somewhere he could end up playing regularly this season. However, as I said he doesn't project well offensively as a 1B. He has the ability to hit some HRs as he showed at AAA last year, but he'd obviously look better long-term over at 3B. I don't really see him as a big HR hitter in the majors. Maybe around 10 a year. I still think he's behind Hart as far as options at 1B, and possibly behind looking at adding someone like Derrek Lee as well. Mainly because it would be nice to keep some sure-fire power at that position. Still, Green seems like a good option just for the rest of this year if a few other things don't work out. Personally, I'd try Hart first and then Green if that isn't working. A guy like Lee wouldn't be bad, but might not be necessary. I doubt a trade will be an option until closer to the deadline.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Im sure this is dumb, but any thoughts on Carlos Lee back to MKE?

 

It's not dumb. I'd have to think he'd be one of the main trade targets if they go that route down the road. I don't see that being an option until around the deadline though. Seems like it would be hard to make a trade like that this early in the season. Plus, we'll probably exhaust some internal options before that. His $18.5 million salary doesn't help either, but it's possibly we could get them to eat a good chunk of that. The power he provides would be nice to have in the lineup.

[Funketown]

If Houston would eat almost all of C. Lee's salaries, I'd maybe consider it. I'd probably still rather have D. Lee if he'd bite on an affordable deal. For reference, the Zips line projected for C. Lee .272/.324/.437 is very similar to what D. Lee has done between 2010 and 2011.

[Hammer]

Well I feel terrible for Gamel, for whatever reason injuries just seem to keep getting in his way.

 

My opinions on the Brewer's training and medical staff are well known and reading this thread has put me in a rather foul mood so I'd rather not say anything I might regret.

 

edit. I have to say something because it's grating on me how dismissive some people can be with these injuries. It's unbelievable that a major league caliber trainer does not perform any kind of stability test on a knee after what appears to be a serious injury. It's not like Mat jumped up and ran back to the dugout, it looked horrible as I was watching it live, every subsequent replay looked bad, there was obviously something wrong. Out of common sense or maybe just respect for the athlete one would think that if a trainer wasn't sure he would do a stability test on the knee to see if there was any damage. They didn't do the test with Yo and they didn't do it with Gamel either because it's very obvious after doing such tests that an athlete shouldn't return to participation. It has nothing to do with hurting the ligament worse and everything to do with protecting the athlete's career and protecting them from a possible significant secondary injury.

 

I have worked in orthopedics for quite a long time and noted on my twitter feed that the training staff immediately did a stability test on his knee. I had a lot of people asking me not to jump to conclusions but it was 100% apparent that they were concerned with the stability of his ACL. Allowing him to jog to the dugout and take a swing in the batters circle is attributable to a high amount of adrenaline going through his system blocking out a good deal of the pain...and a young mans desire not to get pulled from a game. In my opinion the training staff handled this perfectly and there was no further damage that could have been done from a little jog and one swing. You have to let the athlete tell you what hurts and what doesn't feel right. He felt ok for jogging...but the rotation allowed by the torn ACL was felt during a swing...

[Ennder]

The Brewers have one of the better thought of training staffs in baseball so hard for me to complain about them. Pretty much every time Will Carroll talks about team training staffs he points towards the Brewers as an example of a good one. They have won awards in recent history and the team is usually one of the healthier teams in the league.

[TooLiveBrew]

I have worked in orthopedics for quite a long time and noted on my twitter feed that the training staff immediately did a stability test on his knee. I had a lot of people asking me not to jump to conclusions but it was 100% apparent that they were concerned with the stability of his ACL. Allowing him to jog to the dugout and take a swing in the batters circle is attributable to a high amount of adrenaline going through his system blocking out a good deal of the pain...and a young mans desire not to get pulled from a game. In my opinion the training staff handled this perfectly and there was no further damage that could have been done from a little jog and one swing. You have to let the athlete tell you what hurts and what doesn't feel right. He felt ok for jogging...but the rotation allowed by the torn ACL was felt during a swing...

Thank you for this post, Hammer... good insight.