Ryan Braun exonerated, no suspension… Latest: MLB drops Eliezer Alfonzo suspension; case similar to Braun's (part 1)

[yoyo49]

How does this "extremely experienced collector" not know that FedEx is open on a Saturday late afternoon? Something still does not add up here.

I admit I'm playing devil's advocate here with just as little evidence as anyone else really knows at this point, but I don't think it's fair to assume everything is as simple as we the masses are assuming they were.

 

To think that an employee contracted by MLB for an incredibly serious operation would bring his 'fandom' into it, or whatever else people want to imply here, just is too cynical even for a cynic like me.

 

I honestly was not trying to scream conspiracy. I just don't know how somebody who has been the collector for so long does not know something like that.

[jjgott]

I wrote this in the other thread about the collector but how the heck are there still leaks going on? There can only be a handful of individuals who have knowledge of the specifics of this case. Is the MLB just so upset that they're throwing all this info out there? Or is MLB too incompetent to find out who keeps leaking info?

[xisxisxis]

The circling of the wagons by USADA, WADA, Dick Pound and every other anti-doping personality with no dog in the fight (or any more access to the facts than you and I) is totally predictable.

 

To them any questioning of drug testing IS their fight. Unfortunately, MLB circling the wagons is also very predictable -'Nothing is wrong with the system (except the decision by the arbiter)'; 'The collector did nothing wrong (ignore the arbitrators decision)'. Seems like the only direction MLB cares to attack is the arbitrator. Makes them look like tools considering the guy has been working on baseball related issues for years.

 

It seems that MLB has determined that the integrity of the testing program >> Ryan Braun's integrity. I am hoping we start to get some calls for the leak of the information to be identified. MLB has no interest in finding the answer, but that would really put them on the defensive if someone in the MLB offices leaked the information, especially if initially MLB was looking to accept Ryan's argument (before the leak) and the leaker didn't want Ryan to "get away with it."

[xisxisxis]

I honestly was not trying to scream conspiracy. I just don't know how somebody who has been the collector for so long does not know something like that.

 

Well we haven't been given the right information. Yeah he could have collected samples for 7-8 years, but what if he only did 1 run a year because he wasn't the main point person. If he doesn't do this routinely it doesn't matter how many years he's done it as he would still be inexperienced. Saying he's done it for years and not addressing the frequency or amount ('Hundreds of times' or 'many times each year') means that he wasn't doing it often (IMHO).

[yoyo49]

I honestly was not trying to scream conspiracy. I just don't know how somebody who has been the collector for so long does not know something like that.

 

Well we haven't been given the right information. Yeah he could have collected samples for 7-8 years, but what if he only did 1 run a year because he wasn't the main point person. If he doesn't do this routinely it doesn't matter how many years he's done it as he would still be inexperienced. Saying he's done it for years and not addressing the frequency or amount ('Hundreds of times' or 'many times each year') means that he wasn't doing it often (IMHO).

 

That would make more sense--I had assumed MLB meant that he was experienced in the exact same process he carried out on October 1st.

[TooLiveBrew]

I wrote this in the other thread about the collector but how the heck are there still leaks going on? There can only be a handful of individuals who have knowledge of the specifics of this case. Is the MLB just so upset that they're throwing all this info out there? Or is MLB too incompetent to find out who keeps leaking info?

Sadly, 'leaking' can definitely be used as an art form. Yes I'm cynical in thinking this, but with the collector's name leaked, there sure seems to be a lot more discussion just focusing on him & not MLB, doesn't there?

 

Honestly, though, I think it's a mix of both incompetence & malice. That's a wicked combo.

[TooLiveBrew]

I honestly was not trying to scream conspiracy. I just don't know how somebody who has been the collector for so long does not know something like that.

 

Well we haven't been given the right information. Yeah he could have collected samples for 7-8 years, but what if he only did 1 run a year because he wasn't the main point person. If he doesn't do this routinely it doesn't matter how many years he's done it as he would still be inexperienced. Saying he's done it for years and not addressing the frequency or amount ('Hundreds of times' or 'many times each year') means that he wasn't doing it often (IMHO).

 

That would make more sense--I had assumed MLB meant that he was experienced in the exact same process he carried out on October 1st.

And even though yours was the post I quoted, yoyo, I don't mean to take a stance against you in any way. There's just been a lot of assumption that we the fans know what 'should' have happened, and we probably never will fully know.

 

Generally speaking, the people who'd even get considered for this kind of job would be uber-qualified & have lots of endorsements of their character, both personally & professionally. If 'foul play' turns out to be the case, it will be shocking to me, but even moreso disappointing.

[jjgott]

I wrote this in the other thread about the collector but how the heck are there still leaks going on? There can only be a handful of individuals who have knowledge of the specifics of this case. Is the MLB just so upset that they're throwing all this info out there? Or is MLB too incompetent to find out who keeps leaking info?

Sadly, 'leaking' can definitely be used as an art form. Yes I'm cynical in thinking this, but with the collector's name leaked, there sure seems to be a lot more discussion just focusing on him & not MLB, doesn't there?

 

Honestly, though, I think it's a mix of both incompetence & malice. That's a wicked combo.

 

Right, and maybe it's not exactly the same and not trying to get political at all, but look at how the Federal government quickly ferreted out the guy who leaked all that stuff to Wikileaks. It would seem that if MLB cared about leaks they would do everything in their power to find and fire the guy who is letting all this information out. Instead there is a slow drip of info that no one seems to want to stop.

[southpaw121505]

The only time players know they will be tested is when they reach the playoffs. .

 

Wow, is this true? I didn't know this. This makes Braun that much more believable.

 

Absolutely. This plays right into why I was already believing Braun after his press conference. If this is true, it leaves zero doubt in my mind he's innocent. My line of thinking is one I don't see many people talking about. In my line of work I am familiar with testosterone and it's effect on the body and performance. What I've been saying all along is that he looks innocent just on the basis that this was a one time thing. Reason being is that testosterone has to be present for a long period of time- weeks, months- for it to have an effect on performance. Elevated testosterone make muscle and strength gaining easier, but it doesn't magically happen. You can't drink a red bull-esque testosterone drink and boom, Ryan Braun's bat speed.

 

That said, in order for him to be guilty there are only two plausible scenarios. One is that he was taking it consistently but had a masking agent that the MLB didn't know about. Seems unlikely, because how/why did his masking agent suddenly fail if it had helped him pass tests in the past? He surely didn't forget to take it, especially if he was aware of testing around play off time. And again, if you believe he cheated you really have to believe he's been cheating his entire career. He hasn't changed much at all from the time he entered the league. His body size and more importantly stats have been pretty much the same since entering the league.

 

The long winded point I'm trying to make is that a short term boost in testosterone means nothing. He'd have to be taking it long term for it to have an effect. Why on earth wouldn't he abort that going into the playoffs if there was something to it? It would only take 3-4 weeks to restore normal testosterone ratios and the Brewers knew long before October 1st that they would be present in the playoffs and pee tests were right around the corner.

 

Let's look at the other option. Say I'm wrong and there is a drug out there that gives instant and short term spiked test levels. Do we really think Braun is dumb enough to risk taking those if he's aware of playoff drug tests? I don't think this is realistic regardless. I can't imagine a PED that would short term elevate a guy's testosterone and make him better at baseball that day. Again, long term elevated testosterone would lead to strength gain. Short term would probably lead to more erections.

 

Finally, if Braun was really on something that spiked his testosterone higher than the league has ever seen before, he'd simply be a bigger human being. With how hard he works there would be no avoiding extra muscle mass. Some say he gained 15-20 lbs going into last year, but I don't see any noticeable or abnormal changes to his body that would be a red flag at all. Braun's power comes from his god like core strength, not McGwire like forearms. Oh yeah, long term elevated test leads to hair loss. Moral of the story, Braun's cabbage is way too pretty for him to be a juicer.

[Bombers]

I am done with espn

http://m.espn.go.com/mlb/story?storyId=7608934

[yoyo49]

I honestly was not trying to scream conspiracy. I just don't know how somebody who has been the collector for so long does not know something like that.

 

Well we haven't been given the right information. Yeah he could have collected samples for 7-8 years, but what if he only did 1 run a year because he wasn't the main point person. If he doesn't do this routinely it doesn't matter how many years he's done it as he would still be inexperienced. Saying he's done it for years and not addressing the frequency or amount ('Hundreds of times' or 'many times each year') means that he wasn't doing it often (IMHO).

 

That would make more sense--I had assumed MLB meant that he was experienced in the exact same process he carried out on October 1st.

And even though yours was the post I quoted, yoyo, I don't mean to take a stance against you in any way. There's just been a lot of assumption that we the fans know what 'should' have happened, and we probably never will fully know.

 

Generally speaking, the people who'd even get considered for this kind of job would be uber-qualified & have lots of endorsements of their character, both personally & professionally. If 'foul play' turns out to be the case, it will be shocking to me, but even moreso disappointing.

 

No offense taken at all. While foul play may be tough to prove short of the collector admitting it, the negligence/unintentional damage is what is bothering me the most about the collection/testing process.

[brewers19]

I am done with espn

Or aren't you?

[Nottso]

I am done with espn

Or aren't you?

 

Well played.

[brewers19]

Well played.

Or wasn't it?

[Bombers]

Well played.

Or wasn't it?

LOL...Oh it was and oh I am!

[brwrsfan]

For those that read the Carroll article, is it actually worth a buck to buy?

[burnzy24]

So MLBPA and MLB both issued statements today that their independent investiations concluded that MLB was not responsible for the leak regarding the test. Braun's camp would have been crazy to leak this since with the chain of custody issues present there was a good chance that he would be exonerated without the public knowing. Am I the only one who thinks that this Dino guy might be the leak? We found out about everything in December, which would be after the time that MLB had to make a determination on whether or not to go through with a suspension, which would more than likely mean that they would have to make contact with the tester to interview him about the positive test that he proctored. While obviously this is purely speculation, I would be willing to bet that a story like this would be worth mega $$$.

[pebadger]

With respect to the Carroll piece, 99 cents means more to some than others. Fo rfolks like me who have invested too much time into this already it was no big deal.

 

Carroll writes more about the scientific arguments made beyond the simple "oops" factor of not dropping off the package on schedule. It appears that the length of the deliberation probably had something to do with the science arguments that Braun's team did put forth.

 

If I'm putting 2 & 2 together correctly from what I've learned from this piece and other sources, it seems that by making the chain argument that Braun was able to flip the burden of proof back onto MLB (as such a gaffe should). It seems that Dr Ayotte came down from Montreal, where she heads the lab, and testified that the sample was not tampered with, but we know from other sources that Braun's team never alleged that it was tampered with, so the fact that she came down to testify on that point (and others) is pretty strong support for the idea that once the CoC issue was raised MLB was backpedalling. I'm guessing they just assumed that the usual testimony of "Trust us, we're experts and he's guilty because we say so" was going to be enough and that was going to put the onus back on Braun.

 

Honestly the Carroll piece isn't a lengthy treatise but it does indicate that there is much more to the story than the simple "oops, loophole" narrative, as most reasonable people had already gathered. He has sources as to what happened at the hearing, but without more of the written record and data he couldn't really write more than what he did. Assuming the written decision is eventually leaked by somebody, we'll be able to verify what he has written. Honestly you can probably get the gist of most of what he wrote just by following his Twitter account.

 

Just as an aside, if you don't mind reading on a laptop, in the event you don't have a Kindle or other reader, the Kindle PC/Mac app is pretty cool and there are more free classic books to download than you'll ever read.

[TooLiveBrew]

Well played.

Or wasn't it?

You can't explain that

[splitterpfj]

This is why I never believed Braun "did it."

 

MLB has been testing players for PEDs for several years now, I don't know exactly how many, but for this discussion, let's go with 8 years. Ryan Braun's urine sample tested for a level of testosterone that was THREE TIMES higher than ANYONE had ever tested for. While you consider this, don't forget, this would include any player who has been caught, and has served a suspension under this program.

 

What do you suppose was the recorded speed of the most egregious speed limit violator on I-90 over the last eight years? I'm sure the actual speed was much higher, but since we play nice here at Brewerfan, let's say that fastest speed was 100 MPH.

 

If a driver passed you on I-90, going three times faster than the fastest speed recorded in the last eight years, or in this case, 300 MPH....do you think you would have suspected this fella was speeding even without the help of law enforcement? Yes, of course you would...you would notice that this car was moving much faster than all of the other cars, even the naughty cars...you could see that for yourself, even if no one ever showed you a reading of the car's speed.

 

OK, so we're supposed to believe, that while Ryan Braun got no bigger, or stronger, or faster, or had any changes in mood or demeanor, he somehow DID have three times more testosterone in his body than any other MLB player has had in their body over the last eight years.

 

Not only do I find that completely implausible, I doubt it's scientifically possible.

 

Testosterone is intensely powerful, it produces a swift and measurable result, which is precisely why cheaters use the stuff. It completely defies logic to think that someone could cram THAT MUCH of the stuff into their body with no outward signs of it...in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it caused something on the level of cardiac arrest or stroke.

 

I realize, challenging the positive test result in itself would put the player in an almost "no win" situation, because the player bears the burden of proof...you'd get a highly scientific version of "is too, is not"...you'd also get a 50-game suspension. This is why Braun's team chose to attack the testing method, or in this case the chain of custody...and guess what, an independent arbitrator upheld the appeal...for reasons none of us have heard yet.

 

The bottom line is, for me, it is the test result itself that made me believe this was a "not guilty." Anyone with any understanding of hormone therapy would know...you simply cannot put a "fly me to the moon" level of testosterone in your body, without showing outward signs of it...testosterone is much more powerful than that.

[Menotti80]

Especially when he knew he would be tested...

[pebadger]

And yet we have a testing system which disregards all such pleas to other evidence that any rational person would view as relevant and discards them with a notion that they have a test result and you have to prove it wrong. And then kills you anyway when you win because they messed up in a way that they simply want everyone to disregard.

[xisxisxis]

i guess the belief by MLB is that testing is not a deterent, but a means to eventually catch a player since all players cheat.

[brettac1]

i guess the belief by MLB is that testing is not a deterent, but a means to eventually catch a player since all players cheat.

I would say that nails it. Testing was a PR move, above all else.

[pebadger]

It was a PR move, but it was also a "we have to set something up ourselves or Congress is gonna turn us over to USADA and then we're all really screwed" business move on the part of both the players and the owners. If that had happened, you'd have guys serving out 2-year first offense bans right now which is clearly something neither the players or the owns want.