Could brewers land lee? espn insider

[PrinceEatMeat]

Update from Jim Bowden today in his ESPN Insider blog about the top remaining free agents.

 

5. Derrek Lee, 1B

 

There were a lot of first base openings this offseason, namely in Tampa Bay, Cleveland, Milwaukee and Pittsburgh. The Rays signed Carlos Pena and the Indians inked Casey Kotchman, leaving Lee with just two viable options -- the Milwaukee Brewers and Pittsburgh Pirates. The Brewers are over budget and are committed to giving a shot to youngster Mat Gamel. Meanwhile, the Pirates would love to have Lee back but don’t want to have to pay a fortune.

 

Lee, like so many veterans this time of year, must decide between playing one more year on the cheap, or just walking away. He fits best with the Pirates, but they are not yet a contender so Lee could follow in the footsteps of Jermaine Dye and decide to retire because no team was willing to pay him a reasonable amount. Lee is still an above-average defender who can still hit with power. But he is an injury risk. His leadership would be helpful if he decides to keep playing.

[Bombers]

In a "normal" situation, I'd take Lee ONLY as the power threat off the bench and occasional 1B starter against tough lefties. I'd give him a one-year deal for about $2-3 million. I still think Gamel should get 130-140 starts, barring injury/complete awfulness. However, considering Roenicke's love of veterans and general disdain for anyone not "proven," I have a feeling that Lee would become the full-time starter by the end of May, if not earlier. So I would rather just run with what we have now.

 

Ditto.

 

I am a bit tired of the ESPN & MLB.tv guys continually saying that Melvin needs to find "a replacement to Prince Fielder at 1B," and going on about how the Brewers need to pick up a veteran 1B. No one ever says anything about Gamel (good or bad, it's like he doesn't exist), just that Fielder's gone and the Brewers are toast unless they pick up a veteran FA. I really, really want Gamel to succeed.

I agree on this as well. I hope Gamel knocks the cover off the ball. I think if given a veteran 1B, RRR would start him everyday by the middle of May.

 

[monty57]

Fans just don't understand whats at stake this season and it frustrates the heck out of me.

 

I understand what's at stake. We are a mid-market team which needs to constantly have some key positions filled with league minimum guys in order for us to be able to afford some high-priced talent on the team. We have recently traded away much of our minor league talent to bring on high priced veteran players, and we have blocked some of our promising AAA talent with the addition of more high priced veterans on the MLB roster. We are now well over our projected budget for the season and everyone from fans to media analysts say that we should jettison our one talented rookie in favor of yet another high-priced veteran who may be worse than our current league minimum guy.

 

So to me, what's at stake is whether we bankrupt ourselves for a potential small upgrade on a team which is already straining at the purse strings or whether we allow some young talent to play in an attempt to have some kind of cost control so that future teams can also be good. If we continue to try to "be like the big markets," so that we don't frustrate the short-term-minded fans, at some point the house of cards will collapse. I don't want to get to the point where we have to trade away someone like Weeks, Braun or Gallardo so that we can continue to pay Ramirez $16MM. That's how I perceive what's at stake, and hearing people say that Gamel needs to be replaced simply because he's "unproven" frustrates the heck out of me. We're not banking on Erick Almonte here, Gamel's a good player and we need to give him a chance.

[Bnowell4evr]

Fans just don't understand whats at stake this season and it frustrates the heck out of me.

 

I understand what's at stake. We are a mid-market team which needs to constantly have some key positions filled with league minimum guys in order for us to be able to afford some high-priced talent on the team. We have recently traded away much of our minor league talent to bring on high priced veteran players, and we have blocked some of our promising AAA talent with the addition of more high priced veterans on the MLB roster. We are now well over our projected budget for the season and everyone from fans to media analysts say that we should jettison our one talented rookie in favor of yet another high-priced veteran who may be worse than our current league minimum guy.

 

So to me, what's at stake is whether we bankrupt ourselves for a potential small upgrade on a team which is already straining at the purse strings or whether we allow some young talent to play in an attempt to have some kind of cost control so that future teams can also be good. If we continue to try to "be like the big markets," so that we don't frustrate the short-term-minded fans, at some point the house of cards will collapse. I don't want to get to the point where we have to trade away someone like Weeks, Braun or Gallardo so that we can continue to pay Ramirez $16MM. That's how I perceive what's at stake, and hearing people say that Gamel needs to be replaced simply because he's "unproven" frustrates the heck out of me. We're not banking on Erick Almonte here, Gamel's a good player and we need to give him a chance.

You're right were not banking on Erick Almonte were banking on a guy who posts stupid stuff like this on myspace.

Jason Parks @ProfessorParks Close

From Mat Gamel's presumably extinct MySpace bio: "I also like aderol (sic), i think it might have saved my batting avg this year." #Brewers

https://twitter.com/#!/ProfessorParks/status/146685785339461632

Now I need to clear some things up. I never said Gamel needs to be replaced so I hope that isn't directed at me. I want him to start every day against RHP but at the same time I want an insurance policy in case he doesn't get the job done. This isn't a normal year for the Brewers with 3/5 of our rotation possibly leaving so our window to win is pretty much this year unless we bring back Greinke and our young arms pan out. I get the whole point of adding cost controlled players but lets not pretend that the $3M it would take to sign Derrek Lee for one season would bankrupt this organization.

If everyone wants to give Mat Gamel the shot without having any competition then why not just start the rebuilding phase right now? Lets sell off Greinke, Marcum, Wolf, K-Rod and go back to the days when we dreamed about having a .500 team. Those days were awesome http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/tired.gif.

[TooLiveBrew]

If everyone wants to give Mat Gamel the shot without having any competition then why not just start the rebuilding phase right now?

 

The problem is that there isn't any legit competition. Just other bad ideas. Because, honestly, if your idea is Derrek Lee, that does nothing for the Brewers. Nothing. And start the rebuilding phase? Please.

[Raw Biz]

If Gamel fails, they could always move ARam to 1st and have Green play 3rd. Or have Green play 1st. Or have Green play 3rd against righties/ARam against lefties and Aram 1st against righties/Hart against lefties. Or etc. I think with Gamel, Hart, ARam, and Green, there are more options at 1st than most people realize. Whether or not ARam/Hart would want to play 1st full-time is another story (as is what to do against lefties since Green, Schafer, Gindl, Aoki, Morgan are all left-handed as well). I just don't think signing someone like Lee would be a good idea at this point, considering how much Roenicke used Kotsay last year (and how long he stuck with McGehee).

[Warning Track Power]

If Gamel fails, they could always move ARam to 1st and have Green play 3rd. Or have Green play 1st. Or have Green play 3rd against righties/ARam against lefties and Aram 1st against righties/Hart against lefties. Or etc. I think with Gamel, Hart, ARam, and Green, there are more options at 1st than most people realize. Whether or not ARam/Hart would want to play 1st full-time is another story (as is what to do against lefties since Green, Schafer, Gindl, Aoki, Morgan are all left-handed as well). I just don't think signing someone like Lee would be a good idea at this point, considering how much Roenicke used Kotsay last year (and how long he stuck with McGehee).

It is this line of thinking I really do not understand. We have Gamel who has 107 games played (102 last season) at 1B in the Minors. Green has all of 21 games in the minors at 1B, A-Ram has never played there and Hart, who has already been a little whiny about playing 1B already, played 2 games at 1B in 2006 and 16 games there in the Minors since 2002. So we are replacing a 1B with some experience with one of the aforementioned guys who have extremely limited experience there?

 

I am by no means advocating for signing Lee as I also believe that Roenicke would make him the starter if Gamel struggled the first week of the season. However, I think that to move any of the other 3 guys on our roster to 1B with such limited experience of playing the position would make any upgrade in O neglible given how poorly they would likely play 1B to begin with. If Gamel were to struggle I would almost rather see Travis Ishikawa be the 1B as he supposedly is a defensive wizard.

[monty57]

I never said Gamel needs to be replaced so I hope that isn't directed at me.

 

No, it's directed at all the media and fans who say we're going to stink because we lost Fielder and haven't replaced him with {insert veteran name here}

 

I want him to start every day against RHP but at the same time I want an insurance policy in case he doesn't get the job done.

 

First, Gamel has hit LHP as well as RHP for his long tenure in the minors, so I don't know why people say he needs a platoon partner other than the fact that he's young (MLB experience-wise) and left handed. Second, he can't "start every day" and be replaced by the "insurance policy." He's either your starting 1B or not. Are you saying that you would give him "x" number of days to "prove himself," and if he doesn't perform to a certain standard, the "insurance policy" would take over? If so, what is a reasonable number of PAs in which to determine if Gamel has "proven himself" worthy or unworthy of a starting spot? Ryan Braun posted an OPS of .708 in June of 2010, followed by a July .615 OPS. That was 215 PAs, so even Hall of Fame caliber players can have bad periods. Should we ignore all Gamel's done in his minor league career, and replace him with an "insurance policy" if he has a bad 200 PAs. Or is that too many PAs, or too few? Also, which good, starting caliber veteran is going to sit idly by as an "insurance policy," waiting to see if Gamel succeeds or fails in his trial by fire?

 

Then we throw in the Roenicke factor. In my opinion, Roenicke likes veteran players more than he likes rookies (just an opinion, may not be true). I believe that if someone like Derrick Lee is on the roster, Gamel would not get much "rope" before Lee would be the everyday 1B, and Gamel would be another LH bat on the bench.

 

This isn't a normal year for the Brewers with 3/5 of our rotation possibly leaving so our window to win is pretty much this year unless we bring back Greinke and our young arms pan out.

 

Agreed, because we've traded away much of our young talent for high priced veterans. So the answer shouldn't be to block the only young talent we have. How do we have a chance of signing Greinke (who along with Braun, Weeks, Gallardo and Ramirez will make a boatload of money) if we don't have a good number of pre-arby guys playing significant roles? How are we going to have pre-arby guys playing significant roles if we continually trade them or sign veterans to block them?

 

I get the whole point of adding cost controlled players but lets not pretend that the $3M it would take to sign Derrek Lee for one season would bankrupt this organization.

 

Our front office has said that they had a budget of around $85-90MM for the year, and we're over $100MM. How far over budget can we go? I don't know, but it's not like $3MM is chicken feed. $3MM is 3.5% of our projected budget. It's 600% of what Gamel will make. It's a lot of money! I could certainly envision a scenario where the owners would say "I dug into my own pocket in 2012 for a playoff push, so now we have to lower payroll so I can pocket some money this year." Would people be so cavalier about spending another $3MM for a slight upgrade if it meant going to a $70-75MM payroll in 2013? How about that payroll with Braun, Weeks, Gallardo, Hart and Ramirez taking up most of the payroll, so the rest of the team would be made up of $800k veterans and rookies? I don't see that happening, but if we go too far over budget it might... especially if we don't make the playoffs this year.

 

If everyone wants to give Mat Gamel the shot without having any competition then why not just start the rebuilding phase right now?

 

I think that's a bit of overkill. If we had an unlimited budget, then I'd guess that the only time we'd ever see a rookie in a Brewer uniform is if they were an uber-elite prospect, and even then they would have to fight to get playing time. We don't so occasionally we need to allow prospects to play. Gamel has hit at every level at which he has been given consistent playing time. Sure he could fail, but so could almost anyone. Really, how much of an upgrade is Lee? He's old and declining, so he could very well be a low-to-mid .700 OPS guy.

 

Lets sell off Greinke, Marcum, Wolf, K-Rod and go back to the days when we dreamed about having a .500 team.

 

Well, by going well over budget this year, and not gettting anything in return for Greinke, Marcum, Wolf, K-Rod, etc. we could be back to those days as early as next year. I hope it's not the case, but signing Ramirez to a back-loaded deal may be enough to not allow us to extend Greinke. That move blocked Green, and brought in a veteran (which is what you're calling for at 1B) and may be an anchor on our franchise over the next two seasons, all so we could have a better shot this year. We can't do that very often and still hope to have winning baseball in Milwaukee beyond 2012. We are mid-market, we have a budget and we cannot sign a veterean to play every position, or to "be a $3MM insurance policy."

[Raw Biz]

If Gamel fails, they could always move ARam to 1st and have Green play 3rd. Or have Green play 1st. Or have Green play 3rd against righties/ARam against lefties and Aram 1st against righties/Hart against lefties. Or etc. I think with Gamel, Hart, ARam, and Green, there are more options at 1st than most people realize. Whether or not ARam/Hart would want to play 1st full-time is another story (as is what to do against lefties since Green, Schafer, Gindl, Aoki, Morgan are all left-handed as well). I just don't think signing someone like Lee would be a good idea at this point, considering how much Roenicke used Kotsay last year (and how long he stuck with McGehee).

It is this line of thinking I really do not understand. We have Gamel who has 107 games played (102 last season) at 1B in the Minors. Green has all of 21 games in the minors at 1B, A-Ram has never played there and Hart, who has already been a little whiny about playing 1B already, played 2 games at 1B in 2006 and 16 games there in the Minors since 2002. So we are replacing a 1B with some experience with one of the aforementioned guys who have extremely limited experience there?

 

I am by no means advocating for signing Lee as I also believe that Roenicke would make him the starter if Gamel struggled the first week of the season. However, I think that to move any of the other 3 guys on our roster to 1B with such limited experience of playing the position would make any upgrade in O neglible given how poorly they would likely play 1B to begin with. If Gamel were to struggle I would almost rather see Travis Ishikawa be the 1B as he supposedly is a defensive wizard.

Well I honestly think if a guy is a good fielder, he should be able to play 1st. Gamel and ARam's defensive problems stem from throwing so I think they would make good 1Bs. Gamel played there all this past year so I think he will be fine. ARam has almost 15 years in the majors and I think he could adjust to 1B with some time in spring training. I've been thinking about all of these scenarios since they signed ARam so I would've had them working in the offseason and I would give them time in spring training. Anyway, my point was I would rather take my chances with Gamel/Hart/Green/ARam at 1B where we would probably upgrade offensively than have to pay to bring in Derek Lee with the big chance he turns into the starter. Like I've said, if I was guaranteed that Lee wouldn't become the full-time starter unless Gamel truly sucked, then I'd be all over it. Unfortunately, I don't think Gamel has a big leash.

[Warning Track Power]

If Gamel fails, they could always move ARam to 1st and have Green play 3rd. Or have Green play 1st. Or have Green play 3rd against righties/ARam against lefties and Aram 1st against righties/Hart against lefties. Or etc. I think with Gamel, Hart, ARam, and Green, there are more options at 1st than most people realize. Whether or not ARam/Hart would want to play 1st full-time is another story (as is what to do against lefties since Green, Schafer, Gindl, Aoki, Morgan are all left-handed as well). I just don't think signing someone like Lee would be a good idea at this point, considering how much Roenicke used Kotsay last year (and how long he stuck with McGehee).

It is this line of thinking I really do not understand. We have Gamel who has 107 games played (102 last season) at 1B in the Minors. Green has all of 21 games in the minors at 1B, A-Ram has never played there and Hart, who has already been a little whiny about playing 1B already, played 2 games at 1B in 2006 and 16 games there in the Minors since 2002. So we are replacing a 1B with some experience with one of the aforementioned guys who have extremely limited experience there?

 

I am by no means advocating for signing Lee as I also believe that Roenicke would make him the starter if Gamel struggled the first week of the season. However, I think that to move any of the other 3 guys on our roster to 1B with such limited experience of playing the position would make any upgrade in O neglible given how poorly they would likely play 1B to begin with. If Gamel were to struggle I would almost rather see Travis Ishikawa be the 1B as he supposedly is a defensive wizard.

Well I honestly think if a guy is a good fielder, he should be able to play 1st. Gamel and ARam's defensive problems stem from throwing so I think they would make good 1Bs. Gamel played there all this past year so I think he will be fine. ARam has almost 15 years in the majors and I think he could adjust to 1B with some time in spring training. I've been thinking about all of these scenarios since they signed ARam so I would've had them working in the offseason and I would give them time in spring training. Anyway, my point was I would rather take my chances with Gamel/Hart/Green/ARam at 1B where we would probably upgrade offensively than have to pay to bring in Derek Lee with the big chance he turns into the starter. Like I've said, if I was guaranteed that Lee wouldn't become the full-time starter unless Gamel truly sucked, then I'd be all over it. Unfortunately, I don't think Gamel has a big leash.

Definitely agree that I would be all over having D. Lee on the bench if we would be guaranteed that Gamel wouldn't have the short leash. Lee could fill the Russell Branyan role on this team if he would be interested. Start once a week at 1B, late PH off the bench, defensive replacement late in games at 1B if Gamel doesn't cut it on D. Would be an excellent fit given his reputation as a great clubhouse guy as well. Earned my respect a long time ago but especially after he confronted Zambrano after his blowup in the dugout in 2010. However, his presence would make Gamel's leash incredibly short and that would scare me. Me personally though, I still don't believe A-Ram, Hart or Green at 1B in the event of a Gamel failure is the best move we could make. I think we give up a lot on D.

 

A bench including: 1B/PH Lee, C Kottaras, 2B/3B Green, CF Gomez, SS Izturis would be sweet but what happens if Braun isn't suspended? Would we do a 6 man bench?

[Bnowell4evr]

First, Gamel has hit LHP as well as RHP for his long tenure in the minors, so I don't know why people say he needs a platoon partner other than the fact that he's young (MLB experience-wise) and left handed.

You should probably check out his splits from a year ago and you'd understand why people like me think he's a platoon bat.

vs LHP

.213

.280

.375

.655

vs RHP

.347

.408

.602

1.010

http://minorleaguecentral.com/player.php?pid=451143&split=2011

I'm done arguing about this adderall abuser now. Were either gonna sink or swim with him starting so there's nothing more to say.

[Baldkin]

Definitely agree that I would be all over having D. Lee on the bench if we would be guaranteed that Gamel wouldn't have the short leash. Lee could fill the Russell Branyan role on this team if he would be interested. Start once a week at 1B, late PH off the bench, defensive replacement late in games at 1B if Gamel doesn't cut it on D. Would be an excellent fit given his reputation as a great clubhouse guy as well. Earned my respect a long time ago but especially after he confronted Zambrano after his blowup in the dugout in 2010. However, his presence would make Gamel's leash incredibly short and that would scare me. Me personally though, I still don't believe A-Ram, Hart or Green at 1B in the event of a Gamel failure is the best move we could make. I think we give up a lot on D.

 

A bench including: 1B/PH Lee, C Kottaras, 2B/3B Green, CF Gomez, SS Izturis would be sweet but what happens if Braun isn't suspended? Would we do a 6 man bench?

Then we're stuck with Green in AAA and Izturis as the backup 3B/2B/SS. There is no way D-Lee happens for this reason alone. I'm almost positive the 'Crew will go with 2 guys backing up IF, 2 backing up OF and Kottaras.

[brettac1]

I'm done arguing about this adderall abuser now.

 

On the bright side, there are plenty of amphetamine abusers in the hall of fame, and certainly loads and loads of them still playing. They just get a mark doctor to diagnose them with ADD and get a TUE.

[brwrsfan]

In an article on CNNSI today about guys being forced to retire, they discussed 10 current players that don't want to retire but may be forced to because nobody wants them, or nobody wants them at a pay level or playing time level they are comfortable with.

 

One of them was Lee. In the article, it states that the Brewers contacted Lee to come in and share time with Gamel at 1b. Lee apparently wasn't interested in a part time role. And yes, he's still sitting at home with no job.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/tom_verducci/02/21/aging.players/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t12_a3

[sheetskout]

I would laugh my rear off if D. Lee came in and had a fantastic, healthy season along with Aramis.

[RockCoCougars]

There is a reason that no one is signing Lee. He's pretty much at the end of the line and likely wants way too much money (I suspect that money is more of an issue to him than playing time).

[TURBO]

I just keep hoping he gets signed by someone other than the Brewers. The longer he is out there, the more tempting it may be for him to take less money, and the more tempting it may be for us to sign him, taking away valuable playing time from Gamel.

[brwrsfan]

Not that I want Derek Lee right now, as Gamel is doing just fine...but this just goes to show you how much some of these players value themselves. He had offers from multiple teams to be a backup or platoon player, including a team possibly in contention like the Brewers but was too proud to take that type of role or less money than he feels he's worth....so instead, he's basically being forced to retire at this time.

 

He was definitely fading, but I think he could have contributed to a lot of times still.

[RockCoCougars]

I guess for a guy used to making eight figures, $2-$3 million is 'nothing'. He must not have wanted to play too bad. Kind of like when Latrell Spreewell turned down eight figures from the Timberwolves, because he had to 'feed his family'. Last I heard, his yacht was repoed.

[RWeeksFan23]

Yeah, I almost kinda feel bad for Sprewell.. lol

[brewmann04]

time to get Roy Oswalt

[HiAndTight]

time to get Roy Oswalt

 

 

Melvin did just say despite being at 102-103, the Brewers did have payroll flexibility.

 

That said, I'd rather we just save the 8 or so million, use it on foriegn players, or toward next years payroll and the ace of our current staff and likely the ace of our staff for the next 5-6 years if we pony up the money.

 

The longer we "table," these talks with Greinke, the longer shot we have of signing him(obviously). The Phills will re-sign Hamels and all the sudden we're bidding against the top teams for him. Whereas now, we could get him for 115 over 5 at most(most likely).

 

Now I was against signing Prince, same as CC for the price, but Greinke's different. With the guys we have in place coming up, with him we could have a GREAT rotation and BP. Without him, I'm afraid we could see a domino affect and the BP takes more of a beating, the rest of the rotation, at least a couple will be young will have to pick up the slack...

 

OR we retain Wolf at an inflated one year option, and over-sign Marcum to a deal that everyone knows is going to be a terrible one in years 3 and 4(assuming it's only a 4 year deal for 50 million...which is what I'm guessing he'll sign for).

[endaround]

I think Marcum might get more than that. The Free Agent class stinks for position players. Teams have tons of money.

[HiAndTight]

I think Marcum might get more than that. The Free Agent class stinks for position players. Teams have tons of money.

 

 

Even worse. This is what we're faced with again.

 

 

It's like when you start having some success in life. And you get to go out every friday night with your wife, or GF or whoever, and instead of Applebees you get to go to a nice place, spend 25 dollars a plate and don't mind a 100 dollar bill?

 

Nobody wants to go back to big macs after that.

 

Not sure if that analogy holds, but......sign Greinke.

[brettac1]

I think Hamels goes to the Dodgers.