Hart to get 30 games at 1B?

[monty57]

Finally, I see people justifying a move that they like for any number of reasons from Hart is a bad RF to Gamel is unproven instead of being objective about the situation. If Mat performs, there's absolutely no reason to sit him. If he hits well against lefties there is no reason to sit him. In fact I would argue there is very little reason to sit him or any first time everyday player at all. I don't recall Melvin talking about a backup plan for any other young player who's come along? Sitting a player down can be a positive, however it can also be tremendously negative depending on the circumstance and the coaching that goes with it. This is all pretty basic sports psychology, but the most important aspect in sports is confidence, and if the organization and coaching staff aren't doing everything they can to instill and build confidence in their players, especially the inexperienced players, then they are doing the player an incredible disservice. Yes production matters but so does the learning curve and how can anyone say definitively in January what Gamel is going to need in June when he's never been given an everyday opportunity?

 

First off, let me say that I agree with your post. However, for sake of arguement, let's say Melvin/Roenicke sit down with Mat and say "You're our guy, and we want to make sure you're 100% for the season, so we're going to give you a day off every other week or so to keep you fresh. We'll try to make sure it's against a tough lefty." I would think that if things are done correctly there should be no ill will. I will hold judgement until I see how it is handled, as I am worried that Melvin may have the best intentions, but he's opening a can of worms which Roenicke could mishandle badly.

 

As far as who the backup is, I mentioned that unless they're going to use a utility IF or slap-hitting OF, it really has to be either Hart or Braun. While you feel that it's best for the long-term plan to use Braun, I think it's best for the long-term plan to let Braun focus on LF for now. If you're going to screw around with someone and make them learn an additional position, do it with the guy who is less important to the team, which in this case is Hart.

[TooLiveBrew]

You are talking about a guy that hasn't been a regular in the majors (or earned anything) as being dissed if the Brewers have a backup plan?

 

So he hasn't 'earned' anything, like Casey McGehee did? The notion of a player 'earning' anything is junk imo. As Rick Schlesinger recently noted, Gamel is the first baseman. Gamel can hit, it's not his fault many Brewers fans just don't recognize that.

[Roderick]

You are talking about a guy that hasn't been a regular in the majors (or earned anything) as being dissed if the Brewers have a backup plan?

 

So he hasn't 'earned' anything, like Casey McGehee did? The notion of a player 'earning' anything is junk imo. As Rick Schlesinger recently noted, Gamel is the first baseman. Gamel can hit, it's not his fault many Brewers fans just don't recognize that.

So I just want to be clear, you actually think Gamel should feel dissed because the Brewers are talking about using Hart at 1B once a week?

[gregmag]

You are talking about a guy that hasn't been a regular in the majors (or earned anything) as being dissed if the Brewers have a backup plan?

 

So he hasn't 'earned' anything, like Casey McGehee did? The notion of a player 'earning' anything is junk imo. As Rick Schlesinger recently noted, Gamel is the first baseman. Gamel can hit, it's not his fault many Brewers fans just don't recognize that.

Thank you -- I agree 100% about the whole "earning" thing. You get a job based on the best available evidence that you can do it well. There's just a disagreement about how useful minor league performance is as evidence. People who think it isn't often argue that only major league vets have "earned" anything. I disagree with that position on the merits, but I really wish people wouldn't dress it up in the language of entitlement.

 

On the Hart thing, I don't read it as DM saying that a healthy Gamel needs 30 games off. That may be what he meant, but I think it's likelier that he was making a predictive judgment that incorporated the possibility of injury. Just seems likely to me, but who knows.

[TooLiveBrew]

So I just want to be clear, you actually think Gamel should feel dissed because the Brewers are talking about using Hart at 1B once a week?

 

I can't keep using 'dissed'. I think Gamel has had plenty of reason to be annoyed with how the Brewers have handled him, though I do acknowledge that he plays/played a role in that, too. So one more intimation that he's not ready would be annoying to me if I were in his shoes. Keep in mind the bat that the Brewers would be getting in the lineup to replace Gamel against lefties would be one of Gomez/Aoki/Plush. So yeah, I'd feel ticked if I were Gamel & the Brewers realistically think any of those three are a better option against LHP than Mat. Keep in mind 'one game a week' would cost Gamel around 100 PAs on the year, and he's going to need as many healthy PAs as possible to continue to develop.. If the PAs were going to better hitting options, I guess it wouldn't bother me much.

[Bnowell4evr]

I'm not expecting very much out of Gamel after all the other prospects from that great 2008 Huntsville team have struggled badly in the pros. Quite frankly I wouldn't be shocked if Travis Ishikawa was starting by the end of the year.

Matt LaPorta

.238/.304/.397/.711

Michael Brantley

.266/.318/.384/.702

Alcides Escobar

.252/.294/.339/.633

Cole Gillispie

.236/.292/.391/.683

Mat Gamel

.222/.309/.374/.684

[Raw Biz]

I'm not expecting very much out of Gamel after all the other prospects from that great 2008 Huntsville team have struggled badly in the pros. Quite frankly I wouldn't be shocked if Travis Ishikawa was starting by the end of the year.

Matt LaPorta

.238/.304/.397/.711

Michael Brantley

.266/.318/.384/.702

Alcides Escobar

.252/.294/.339/.633

Cole Gillispie

.236/.292/.391/.683

Mat Gamel

.222/.309/.374/.684

What do other players have to do with how Gamel performs? That argument doesn't make any sense to me. Plus, out of that group, only LaPorta was really considered a great bat.

[logan82]

If the PAs were going to better hitting options, I guess it wouldn't bother me much.

 

That is one of the two problems I have with taking Gamel out of the lineup. 100PA is a lot to give to an inferior hitter. If we had a decent backup right handed outfielder who could play decent defense I would have a different opinion.

[TooLiveBrew]

What do other players have to do with how Gamel performs?

Well obviously it's important -- I mean, look at how 2003 Huntsville Star Dave Krynzel's failure to pan out in the bigs has been predictive of Corey Hart's career.

[Bnowell4evr]

I guess all I'm saying is I have extremely tempered expectations for the guy and IF he's a decent platoon bat I'll be thrilled. I don't see how fans can get upset with Melvin having a backup plan in case Gamel struggles like he has in the past.

[brettac1]

The problem I have is that I don't trust RR to play Gamel and stick with him if they give him an old guy on the roster, as well.

[logan82]

The problem I have is that I don't trust RR to play Gamel and stick with him if they give him an old guy on the roster, as well.

and there is a good summation of my second problem with this whole situation.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't see how fans can get upset with Melvin having a backup plan in case Gamel struggles like he has in the past.

 

Well if the backup plan didn't stink, like I mentioned before I wouldn't have as much of an issue with it.

[Bnowell4evr]

I don't see how fans can get upset with Melvin having a backup plan in case Gamel struggles like he has in the past.

 

Well if the backup plan didn't stink, like I mentioned before I wouldn't have as much of an issue with it.

The truth is our backup plan has better career numbers than our starter.

Gamel - .222/.309/.374/.684

Conrad - .229/.305/.428/.733

[TooLiveBrew]

Good thing there are scouts then to analyze a player's swing & give opinions on whether or not the player has a good chance to hit at the big league level. Otherwise the only options the Brewers would ever have are to develop megastars like Ryan Braun or sign old expensive veterans.

EDIT: And "the truth"? The truth is the sample size you keep citing on Gamel in the bigs is to small to mean anything one way or the other. I wouldn't be here telling you Gamel could hit because of his stats over a 171 AB sample. I'm telling you he can hit because he has a really good swing.

[Raw Biz]

I don't see how fans can get upset with Melvin having a backup plan in case Gamel struggles like he has in the past.

 

Well if the backup plan didn't stink, like I mentioned before I wouldn't have as much of an issue with it.

The truth is our backup plan has better career numbers than our starter.

Gamel - .222/.309/.374/.684

Conrad - .229/.305/.428/.733

I can't believe people still use Gamel's MLB "career" stats to say that he sucks or won't be any good. If you don't think he will be good because you don't like his swing, mechanics, etc., fine I can understand that. I wouldn't even argue with you if you said you just don't like him. But you lose any and all credibility when your main support is less than 200 PA over 3 years while ignoring his .873 OPS over 3200 minor league PAs.

[Bnowell4evr]

Good thing there are scouts then to analyze a player's swing & give opinions on whether or not the player has a good chance to hit at the big league level. Otherwise the only options the Brewers would ever have are to develop megastars like Ryan Braun or sign old expensive veterans.

EDIT: And "the truth"? The truth is the sample size you keep citing on Gamel in the bigs is to small to mean anything one way or the other. I wouldn't be here telling you Gamel could hit because of his stats over a 171 AB sample. I'm telling you he can hit because he has a really good swing.

He has such a good swing he spent last September at home. Any hope I had for Gamel being a productive EVERYDAY player went out the window when Don Money completely buried him.

[TooLiveBrew]

Yes, because guys like Lyle Overbay & Aaron Rodgers never amount to squat!

[Bnowell4evr]

Yes, because guys like Lyle Overbay & Aaron Rodgers never amount to squat!

So they had a former manager/coach completely bury them as well? For some strange reason I can't remember anyone saying Rodgers was hard headed, doesn't carry himself like a professional and won't amount to anything until he gets his head on straight...

But other than that I guess its a good comparison http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eyes.gif

[Baldkin]

Yes, because guys like Lyle Overbay & Aaron Rodgers never amount to squat!

So they had a former manager/coach completely bury them as well? For some strange reason I can't remember anyone saying Rodgers was hard headed, doesn't carry himself like a professional and won't amount to anything until he gets his head on straight...

But other than that I guess its a good comparison http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eyes.gif

Um, that's pretty much exactly what they said about Rodgers the two weeks leading up to the draft, and why he fell to the Packers.

[thebruce44]

Good thing there are scouts then to analyze a player's swing & give opinions on whether or not the player has a good chance to hit at the big league level. Otherwise the only options the Brewers would ever have are to develop megastars like Ryan Braun or sign old expensive veterans.

EDIT: And "the truth"? The truth is the sample size you keep citing on Gamel in the bigs is to small to mean anything one way or the other. I wouldn't be here telling you Gamel could hit because of his stats over a 171 AB sample. I'm telling you he can hit because he has a really good swing.

He has such a good swing he spent last September at home. Any hope I had for Gamel being a productive EVERYDAY player went out the window when Don Money completely buried him.

The truth is Don Money buries just about everyone.

[igor67]

Maybe Money is trying out to be a heel in the WWE thread?

[gregmag]

Good thing there are scouts then to analyze a player's swing & give opinions on whether or not the player has a good chance to hit at the big league level. Otherwise the only options the Brewers would ever have are to develop megastars like Ryan Braun or sign old expensive veterans.

EDIT: And "the truth"? The truth is the sample size you keep citing on Gamel in the bigs is to small to mean anything one way or the other. I wouldn't be here telling you Gamel could hit because of his stats over a 171 AB sample. I'm telling you he can hit because he has a really good swing.

He has such a good swing he spent last September at home. Any hope I had for Gamel being a productive EVERYDAY player went out the window when Don Money completely buried him.

Are you saying that Money's burying him proved that he can't be a productive everyday player, or that Money's burying him diminished his capacity to be a productive everyday player? I don't think I would agree with either point, but I don't know which one you mean, and they're very different points.

 

Clearly his MLB stats to date don't tell us much of use. If he had absolutely killed in 173 PA or completely flopped -- 1.000 OPS or .500 -- I'd take that pretty seriously. I might also pay more attention if his OPS was BA-inflated. But a .684 OPS off a .222 BA? Anybody can do that for 173 PA. Plus, as others have said, he has about as long and steady a minor league track record as you could imagine. That doesn't guarantee anything, but as predictive evidence it's very useful.

[CheezWizHed]

Money's burying him

 

I still say this is WAY overblown. Someone asked for his opinion on the guy. He didn't say anything more than we didn't already know or what others said (immaturity). It wasn't a vicious indictment. It was an honest evaluation of what he needed to improve. And we act like he insulted our mothers.