Michael Pineda traded for Jesus Montero; Yankees sign Kuroda

[Ennder]

I'm the minority but I'd always take the hitter over the pitcher while rebuilding a team so I get this trade. Pineda probably has something like a 50% chance to get injured while he is still cheap and something like a 25% chance to have an injury so severe it derails his career while being cheap. You rebuild around offense and then find a way to get pitching in general, especially in the AL. It is better if you can build both equally but Seattle has kind of failed on the offense front so they can't really do both at once. In this case I think Pineda is the better player and I think they could have gotten more for him so I don't love the trade, but I at least understand it.

[brettac1]

I'm the minority but I'd always take the hitter over the pitcher while rebuilding a team so I get this trade. Pineda probably has something like a 50% chance to get injured while he is still cheap and something like a 25% chance to have an injury so severe it derails his career while being cheap. You rebuild around offense and then find a way to get pitching in general, especially in the AL. It is better if you can build both equally but Seattle has kind of failed on the offense front so they can't really do both at once. In this case I think Pineda is the better player and I think they could have gotten more for him so I don't love the trade, but I at least understand it.

Yeah, I agree with this. It's really how the rebuild with the Brewers went, so I imagine Jack Z was following that plan. Of course, they never traded a pitcher like Pineda, but they never really developed one aside from Gallardo, and they were a lot further along than the Mariners were when he came up.

[StearnsFTW]

Pineda really wasn't that good last year. I realize he has potential, but it's not as if he's a #2 starter right now. He could be someday, but not today.

 

I really like Montero, but I believe he should be a 1st baseman and would be a better fit there than DH.

 

Interesting trade for both sides. Sounds like Campos could be a big part of it too.

[Raw Biz]

Pineda really wasn't that good last year. I realize he has potential, but it's not as if he's a #2 starter right now. He could be someday, but not today.

 

I really like Montero, but I believe he should be a 1st baseman and would be a better fit there than DH.

 

Interesting trade for both sides. Sounds like Campos could be a big part of it too.

Really? As a 22-year-old in his first season, he had a 3.74 ERA, 3.53 xFIP, 1.099 WHIP, 9.1 K/9, and 3.15 K/BB. The AL West has some spacious ballparks but if that isn't considered a good season, especially in the AL for a rookie, then I don't know what else you expect.

[jjfanec]

Campos looks to be a very legit prospect compared to Noesi. I take pitching over bats almost every time if they are equally regarded players.

 

Somebody asked about what would have we thought about trading Prince for pitching when he was in a similar place to Montero. Well the pitchers ranked around Prince his last time in BA's top 100 were Matt Cain, Justin Verlander, and John Lester. Not sure what I would think about any of those trades except Prince for Verlander is a no brainer.

 

And in what world wasnt Pineda that good last year? He struck out more than a batter per inning. His WHIP was 1.09. 3-1 k to walk ratio. The top two similar pitchers at 22 were Josh Beckett and Roy Halladay according to baseball-reference. According to fangraphs his WAR was higher than Gallardo.

Edit - I just read Campos was a top 5 prospect in the Mariners system. So a top young pitcher and a top-end prospect for a guy who will be a 1B or DH? That seems risky. Both pitchers could fail and Jack Z could win in this deal but right now it is not a trade I would have wanted Melvin to make. Unless I am missing something on Pineda. I know his home road splits werent good.

[StearnsFTW]

Pineda really wasn't that good last year. I realize he has potential, but it's not as if he's a #2 starter right now. He could be someday, but not today.

 

I really like Montero, but I believe he should be a 1st baseman and would be a better fit there than DH.

 

Interesting trade for both sides. Sounds like Campos could be a big part of it too.

Really? As a 22-year-old in his first season, he had a 3.74 ERA, 3.53 xFIP, 1.099 WHIP, 9.1 K/9, and 3.15 K/BB. The AL West has some spacious ballparks but if that isn't considered a good season, especially in the AL for a rookie, then I don't know what else you expect.

Yeah, he was pretty good. ERA+ was 103. I don't think he's nearly as good as people are making him out to be. He struggled as he saw teams more, which will happen to a 2-pitch pitcher. If he doesn't develop a 3rd pitch, I don't see him as anything other than a #3 or #4 starter.

 

I'd much rather have Montero. I admit I don't know a lot about Campos though, and he could be a huge part of this deal.

[jjfanec]

Yeah, he was pretty good. ERA+ was 103. I don't think he's nearly as good as people are making him out to be. He struggled as he saw teams more, which will happen to a 2-pitch pitcher. If he doesn't develop a 3rd pitch, I don't see him as anything other than a #3 or #4 starter.

 

I'd much rather have Montero. I admit I don't know a lot about Campos though, and he could be a huge part of this deal.

Ben Sheets was a pretty good pitcher with just 2 pitches

[StearnsFTW]

Yeah, he was pretty good. ERA+ was 103. I don't think he's nearly as good as people are making him out to be. He struggled as he saw teams more, which will happen to a 2-pitch pitcher. If he doesn't develop a 3rd pitch, I don't see him as anything other than a #3 or #4 starter.

 

I'd much rather have Montero. I admit I don't know a lot about Campos though, and he could be a huge part of this deal.

Ben Sheets was a pretty good pitcher with just 2 pitches

I knew someone would bring that up. Sheets had a 70 curveball. And Sheets was a #2 pitcher, with the exception of 2004, which is what I think Pineda's ceiling is.

 

His home/road split is huge. His 2nd half was terrible. I'm not saying he can't be a very good pitcher, I just think he's being overhyped in this thread.

[jjfanec]

I knew someone would bring that up. Sheets had a 70 curveball. And Sheets was a #2 pitcher, with the exception of 2004, which is what I think Pineda's ceiling is.

 

His home/road split is huge. His 2nd half was terrible. I'm not saying he can't be a very good pitcher, I just think he's being overhyped in this thread.

Of course someone will bring it up because you made it sound like a two-pitch guy could only be a 3/4 starters. Sheets was a 2 at worst when healthy. Even if he ends up being a number 2 pitcher that is pretty solid. I would say his first half and strike out ability show his ceiling is higher than that. But what is Montero's ceiling? He wont catching so he is a 1B or DH who some scouts I have read said is projected to be a 30 HR hitter.

His home/road splits are worrisome. The bad second half makes sense for a guy in his first full year.

 

[Kelbysdaddy]

i thought this was interesting from mlbtr

 

Mike Salk of ESPN 710 Radio in Seattle outlines the reasons why he "loves" the deal for the Mariners. Also from Salk (on Twitter), he hears from "a non-M's baseball guy" who believes Noesi is a better long-term option than Pineda

 

noesi better then pineda? montero is a stud and if he catches for a couple years then dh or 1b it cant be bad. montero/smoak/ackley/franklin/seager make a tough infield in a couple years. i dont think it takes them out of the market for fielder either. fielder can be at 1b until montero cant catch anymore then they can split 1b and dh. i'm sure they'd have no problem moving smoak.

[StearnsFTW]

I knew someone would bring that up. Sheets had a 70 curveball. And Sheets was a #2 pitcher, with the exception of 2004, which is what I think Pineda's ceiling is.

 

His home/road split is huge. His 2nd half was terrible. I'm not saying he can't be a very good pitcher, I just think he's being overhyped in this thread.

Of course someone will bring it up because you made it sound like a two-pitch guy could only be a 3/4 starters. Sheets was a 2 at worst when healthy. Even if he ends up being a number 2 pitcher that is pretty solid. I would say his first half and strike out ability show his ceiling is higher than that. But what is Montero's ceiling? He wont catching so he is a 1B or DH who some scouts I have read said is projected to be a 30 HR hitter.

His home/road splits are worrisome. The bad second half makes sense for a guy in his first full year.

 

Sheets is the exception rather than the rule. He's the best 2-pitch pitcher of the last decade that I can think of. That's the ceiling without a 3rd pitch IMO, and he may very well end up a 3/4 strater. Trading Montero for that ceiling is pretty risky.

 

I just don't think it's the slam dunk for the Yankees that a lot of people do. At all.

[jjfanec]

i thought this was interesting from mlbtr

 

Mike Salk of ESPN 710 Radio in Seattle outlines the reasons why he "loves" the deal for the Mariners. Also from Salk (on Twitter), he hears from "a non-M's baseball guy" who believes Noesi is a better long-term option than Pineda

In what world is Noesi a better long term-option. He is older. Has worse stats across the board and was hit hard in the majors. I can only assume that non-M's baseball is Noesi's dad. I can see why M's fans would like the deal. They have a lot of pitching apparently, but as a poster above said I would have traded King Felix for a kings ransom before this move because they will not compete with the Rangers and Angels the next 2 years

[NievesNoNO]

Wow!! A pretty fair deal as far as prospects go but I really like this for the Yankees. Pineda is a right-handed CC clone. I have to admit I'm slightly bitter that the Yankees of all teams landed Pineda.

[jjfanec]

cubsdie wrote:

Sheets is the exception rather than the rule. He's the best 2-pitch pitcher of the last decade that I can think of. That's the ceiling without a 3rd pitch IMO, and he may very well end up a 3/4 strater. Trading Montero for that ceiling is pretty risky.

 

I just don't think it's the slam dunk for the Yankees that a lot of people do. At all.

I can agree Pineda for Montero is not a slam dunk but if the reports on Campos are true than I easily think it is a slam dunk trade. A top young pitcher in Pineda and Campos who is a top 5 prospect is a solid Mariners system seems like good moves. Heck it even frees the Yankees up to go after Prince if they want since Posada and Montero are now gone

[And That]

I forget if it was Goldstein or Law, but this past summer one of them said it was just a matter of time before Pineda gets hurt. It was about his pitching motion or something. It's possible the Mariners were thinking the same thing and didn't want to push their luck any further with him.

 

Safeco is also one of the more pitcher-friendly parks around, so you could argue it's easier for them to find success with pitching than hitting, so a premium young hitter would provide more relative value than a premium young pitcher.

[StearnsFTW]

Sheets is the exception rather than the rule. He's the best 2-pitch pitcher of the last decade that I can think of. That's the ceiling without a 3rd pitch IMO, and he may very well end up a 3/4 strater. Trading Montero for that ceiling is pretty risky.

 

I just don't think it's the slam dunk for the Yankees that a lot of people do. At all.

I can agree Pineda for Montero is not a slam dunk but if the reports on Campos are true than I easily think it is a slam dunk trade. A top young pitcher in Pineda and Campos who is a top 5 prospect is a solid Mariners system seems like good moves. Heck it even frees the Yankees up to go after Prince if they want since Posada and Montero are now gone

I will agree if Campos pans out to be a good pitcher. I really don't know anything about him except what I've read this morning, which does make it sound like he's very good.

 

The Prince thing is certainly a factor as well, I was just stating my opinion based on the players in this deal. I will also willingly admit that I have a man-crush on Jesus Montero. I think he's going to be Carlos Delgado.

[

[jjfanec]

cubsdie]I will agree if Campos pans out to be a good pitcher. I really don't know anything about him except what I've read this morning, which does make it sound like he's very good.

 

The Prince thing is certainly a factor as well, I was just stating my opinion based on the players in this deal. I will also willingly admit that I have a man-crush on Jesus Montero. I think he's going to be Carlos Delgado.

[

Well thats fair. I have a man-crush on good young pitching since it is so uncommon here in Milwaukee. I probably am too biased toward getting pitching since it has been so hard for this franchise.

[crewcrazy]

I saw a few people say it last night (maybe FanGraphs and somewhere else) that considering what the Nats paid for Gio Gonzalez and what the Reds paid for Mat Latos, the Yankees got a bargain for Pineda -- granted, Montero is a better prospect than anyone in those other two deals, but New York only gave up one guy they're likely to miss, as opposed to two or three.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens with Pineda's numbers after moving from Safeco to the Bronx launching pad, though. He's overpowered right-handed hitters, but Yankee Stadium is heaven for LHB, while Safeco was much more forgiving. It wouldn't surprise me to see Pineda struggle with giving up home runs at home.

 

As for the M's, Montero can really hit. The sooner they forget about him catching, the better. Stick him at DH, hope Smoak has a fully healthy year at first, watch Ackley get better, and suddenly you have the makings of a promising young lineup. Losing Pineda could hurt, but they'll still have Danny Hultzen likely making his debut this year, and guys like James Paxton and Taijuan Walker coming up in the next few years. Having that many good pitchers coming up through the system probably made it easier for Jack Z to trade Pineda to improve the offense.

 

Then again, you could argue that the Mariners would have been better off keeping Pineda and improving the offense by signing Prince Fielder, but maybe Jack Z got tired of waiting for him like everyone else.

[StearnsFTW]

I will agree if Campos pans out to be a good pitcher. I really don't know anything about him except what I've read this morning, which does make it sound like he's very good.

 

The Prince thing is certainly a factor as well, I was just stating my opinion based on the players in this deal. I will also willingly admit that I have a man-crush on Jesus Montero. I think he's going to be Carlos Delgado.

[

Well thats fair. I have a man-crush on good young pitching since it is so uncommon here in Milwaukee. I probably am too biased toward getting pitching since it has been so hard for this franchise.

I will say, that no matter my opinion of Pineda or Montero, the deal still makes a lot of sense for both teams. Both dealing from positions of strength to fill a need.

[Raw Biz]

I will agree if Campos pans out to be a good pitcher. I really don't know anything about him except what I've read this morning, which does make it sound like he's very good.

 

The Prince thing is certainly a factor as well, I was just stating my opinion based on the players in this deal. I will also willingly admit that I have a man-crush on Jesus Montero. I think he's going to be Carlos Delgado.

[

Well thats fair. I have a man-crush on good young pitching since it is so uncommon here in Milwaukee. I probably am too biased toward getting pitching since it has been so hard for this franchise.

I will say, that no matter my opinion of Pineda or Montero, the deal still makes a lot of sense for both teams. Both dealing from positions of strength to fill a need.

I think that's the best way to look at it. It makes sense for both teams. But the way you phrased it before made it sound like Pineda was nothing more than a back-end guy. You've made it known that you love Montero and don't like Pineda. From a non-biased standpoint, it helps out both teams. But I believe good young pitching is better than good young hitting so I think the Yankees got the better deal (not going to argue over semantics on whether Pineda/Montero is good/great).

[nate82]

One thing that has been bugging me about this is that the Mariners have Felix Hernandez who could have gotten them Montero and more. Why trade a younger pitcher in Pineda when you could have gotten more out of someone like Felix Hernandez. If you are looking at the future the Mariners probably would have done better trading Hernandez than trading Pineda.

To me this is still a 100% win for the Yankees and a big loss for the Mariners given that they traded the wrong player. Again this is going to come around and bite Jack Z in the butt and will ultimately cost him his job as a GM. This will probably go down as what not to do as a GM when making trades.

[sveumrules]

With Seattle's attendance situation they really couldn't afford to trade King Felix. The only players people go to see in Seattle are Ichiro and the King and after Ichiro's 2011 if they traded Hernandez what is left of the fanbase would erode even further.

[Raw Biz]

With Seattle's attendance situation they really couldn't afford to trade King Felix. The only players people go to see in Seattle are Ichiro and the King and after Ichiro's 2011 if they traded Hernandez what is left of the fanbase would erode even further.

But isn't it ultimately about making the team better? I would think that trading Felix for Montero, Betances and/or Banuelos would make the team better than Pineda for Montero. They would also not have to pay Felix that big contract. I think most fans would rather go see a better team with younger prospects than a crappy team with a superstar.

[brettac1]

I think that is the reasoning they used, right or wrong. Felix is a draw.

[trwi7]

That's weird since Felix only played in 14 of their 81 home games last year. They did average 1,973 more fans in games that he pitched but that doesn't seem like a big enough difference to keep him just because he "draws fans."