Who will be this years Yuni or Kotsay?

[igor67]

In the spirit of the thread, I could see Gonzalez becoming a vent topic. The defensive upgrade will not be easy to point, and his offense could easily draw attention if the team is struggling. I don't think that is fair necessarily, but I could see it happening.

[JohnBriggs12]

Gonzalez will make Betancourt look a lot better offensively. Gonzalez strikes out a lot more and he won't be anywhere near as proficient as Betancourt, who led the league in sacrifice flies, was at getting runners in from 3rd with less than 2 out. Usually guys that strike out at the rate Gonzalez does, tend to draw some walks because they swing and miss and get deeper into counts. So if Betancourt's approach frustrated you, Gonzalez' surely will too. Defensively the difference won't be as noticeable as people think either.

 

But I'm going elsewhere for who I think the fans will be on. I think they will be on Aramis Ramirez, a notoriously slow starter, and a guy who'll make errors in bunches. That isn't a good combination for winning over new fans. Even when Ramirez warms up, it's usually too late, and he'll be remembered for getting out of the gate slowly. Throw in Braun's possible suspension and you have the makings for real angst. Two other guys who will see wrath of fans quickly if they don't get out of the gate fast are Marcum and Weeks, both of whom failed miserably in October. Fans will be pining for Fielder, believe me.

[joshua502000]

With the responses I am seeing I have to wonder if anyone will be this years Yuni or Kotsay. Seemed to me last year we all almost to a person all were unified in our feelings about those 2. Now I am seeing some K-Rod, Gonzalez, Marcum, Wolf, Hart, Gomez, and Iztursis from all different people so it will be hard to see the level of vilification we had last year.

[TooLiveBrew]

The defensive upgrade will not be easy to point

 

Assuming you meant "to point to", I completely disagree. I'm astounded by how many people seem to be playing coy about Gonzalez after doing the same thing about Betancourt. The reports on both players aren't voodoo black magic. Betancourt really is an awful defender at SS, & Gonzalez really is a very good one.

[RockCoCougars]

I'm not sure that it's a safe assumption that a 35 year old shortstop is going to come in and be an elite fielder. At that age, most guys are moved off shortstop. As I said, I don't remember hearing much at all about his defensive reputation until Powell talked him up and that article came out rating him a 'top 3' defensive shortstop (both this offseason). I've heard a lot more about Barmes' defensive prowess than Gonzalez'.

[trwi7]

RockCoCougars wrote:

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I'm not sure that it's a safe assumption that a 35 year old shortstop is going to come in and be an elite fielder.

He doesn't have to be to be a defensive upgrade.

[RockCoCougars]

He doesn't have to be to be a defensive upgrade.

 

No, but considering that he's a poor hitter and making over $4 million, he had better be good at shortstop. The Brewers would have been better served to go the extra million and sign Barmes.

[logan82]

That assumes Barmes would have signed with us for an extra million. If he would have, sure he probably would have been the better choice. Projects to be a better hitter and probably a better defender. I wanted Barmes this offseason.

[Madtown343]

Gonzalez will make Betancourt look a lot better offensively. Gonzalez strikes out a lot more and he won't be anywhere near as proficient as Betancourt, who led the league in sacrifice flies, was at getting runners in from 3rd with less than 2 out. Usually guys that strike out at the rate Gonzalez does, tend to draw some walks because they swing and miss and get deeper into counts. So if Betancourt's approach frustrated you, Gonzalez' surely will too. Defensively the difference won't be as noticeable as people think either.

 

But I'm going elsewhere for who I think the fans will be on. I think they will be on Aramis Ramirez, a notoriously slow starter, and a guy who'll make errors in bunches. That isn't a good combination for winning over new fans. Even when Ramirez warms up, it's usually too late, and he'll be remembered for getting out of the gate slowly. Throw in Braun's possible suspension and you have the makings for real angst. Two other guys who will see wrath of fans quickly if they don't get out of the gate fast are Marcum and Weeks, both of whom failed miserably in October. Fans will be pining for Fielder, believe me.

 

 

I think these problems will be minimized by playing early April in Miller Park and not the nastiest of outdoor arean's.

[TooLiveBrew]

I'm not sure that it's a safe assumption that a 35 year old shortstop is going to come in and be an elite fielder.

 

Were you one who 'wasn't sure' Betancourt would be a terrible defender? I get the hesitation to accept scouting reports, since you're not familiar with the player(s), but you could change that simply by watching some highlights of Gonzalez.

[RockCoCougars]

I'm not sure that it's a safe assumption that a 35 year old shortstop is going to come in and be an elite fielder.

 

Were you one who 'wasn't sure' Betancourt would be a terrible defender? I get the hesitation to accept scouting reports, since you're not familiar with the player(s), but you could change that simply by watching some highlights of Gonzalez.

Maybe I've watched too much Jose Valentin and Jose K in my day, but I really don't think Betancourt was that bad. He nearly always made the routine play (did he make a throwing error all season?), with a strong arm and was solid turning two. The only legitimate knock on Yuni at SS is a lack of range to his right, and for reasons I've argued elsewhere, I think that is getting overblown.

 

As for Gonzalez, time will tell. I don't always trust scouting reports- generally guys north of 35 start to slip a little defensively anywhere... especially shortstop, how many elite defensive shortstops have we seen at his age? Not too many. Even making the assumption that these scouts are dead on, who is to say that these reports on Gonzalez will be accurate as he ages?

[MVP2110]

But I'm going elsewhere for who I think the fans will be on. I think they will be on Aramis Ramirez, a notoriously slow starter, and a guy who'll make errors in bunches. That isn't a good combination for winning over new fans. Even when Ramirez warms up, it's usually too late, and he'll be remembered for getting out of the gate slowly. Throw in Braun's possible suspension and you have the makings for real angst. Two other guys who will see wrath of fans quickly if they don't get out of the gate fast are Marcum and Weeks, both of whom failed miserably in October. Fans will be pining for Fielder, believe me.

I could definately see this. If Aramis doesn't start off hot, especially with Braun out I think alot of people will be gunning for him. I think people are planning on him replacing Prince solely. Which is unfair

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

While there will be disappointments and let downs, both Yuni and Kotsay were already way deep in the brewerfan doghouse before they even played. We were 50 pages into a Yuni bashing thread before opening day (32 were from me and No, we weren't wrong). I don't sense the same "what is DM thinking?" player on the roster yet...but there is still time.

[TooLiveBrew]

Maybe I've watched too much Jose Valentin and Jose K in my day, but I really don't think Betancourt was that bad.

 

Annnnnd I'm done here. Sorry to waste anyone's time.

[Bombers]

After seeing Aoki's first name today (I guess I really never took notice of it before) ... I might have to vote for him as I can see the blogs already .... No Aoki! Stop using him in RRR!

[danzig6767]

I'm not sure that it's a safe assumption that a 35 year old shortstop is going to come in and be an elite fielder.

 

Were you one who 'wasn't sure' Betancourt would be a terrible defender? I get the hesitation to accept scouting reports, since you're not familiar with the player(s), but you could change that simply by watching some highlights of Gonzalez.

Maybe I've watched too much Jose Valentin and Jose K in my day, but I really don't think Betancourt was that bad. He nearly always made the routine play (did he make a throwing error all season?), with a strong arm and was solid turning two. The only legitimate knock on Yuni at SS is a lack of range to his right, and for reasons I've argued elsewhere, I think that is getting overblown.

 

As for Gonzalez, time will tell. I don't always trust scouting reports- generally guys north of 35 start to slip a little defensively anywhere... especially shortstop, how many elite defensive shortstops have we seen at his age? Not too many. Even making the assumption that these scouts are dead on, who is to say that these reports on Gonzalez will be accurate as he ages?

What do you base on Betancourt only lacking range when going to his right? He also had below average range going up the middle, just to a slightly lesser degree than going to his right.

 

We'll find out come next year if age will have started to catch up to Gonzalez defensively, but it would be nearly impossible for him to not be a pretty significant upgrade defensively. At the plate, their numbers are near images of each other, except that Gonzalez strikes out a lot more instead hitting numerous shallow fly balls into shallow right-center as Betancourt did.

[ilikewisco]

http://gapersblock.com/tailgate/sportsgifs/GonzalezD2.gif

The only legitimate knock on Yuni at SS is a lack of range to his right,

 

and his left

[strawbossisevil]

Ilikewisco, that's a video of Gonzalez, not Yuni. I think Gonzalez will be a major improvement in the field even in spite of what that video shows us.

[ilikewisco]

sorry, i didn't pay attention. Thanks

[umphrey]

I don't think people are fully prepared for Alex Gonzalez. Offensively last year his numbers were almost identical to Yuni B. The only category that really sticks out as being different is K%, Gonzalez struck out twice as often.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I don't think people are fully prepared for Alex Gonzalez. Offensively last year his numbers were almost identical to Yuni B. The only category that really sticks out as being different is K%, Gonzalez struck out twice as often.

 

The bar has been lowered...

[ilikewisco]

Before going to Atlanta Gonzalez was having a career year in Toronto. Hopefully Miller Park can bring that power back. I'm just afraid of the age and strikeouts. I'm sure the defense will be better, so if he can show some power I won't complain. There really are not many elite SS's anyway, so I think I will be happy with Gonzalez, I was never as upset as others with Yuni anyway.

[RockCoCougars]

What do you base on Betancourt only lacking range when going to his right? He also had below average range going up the middle, just to a slightly lesser degree than going to his right.

 

A valid point, but Yuni was quite often positioned to shade towards second. Obviously, this was done to cover for his lack of range. At the same time, if he got to a ball, it was generally an out. As long as Gonzalez makes all the routine plays, I will be good. If he starts kicking routine grounders or throwing double play balls in to right field, I'll have a problem. My primary issue is that it seems everyone is ready to accept Gonzalez as a no hit good glove guy. Considering the contract the Brewers gave him, they would have been better served to sign Barmes in such a role, as far as I remember, he has a much better defensive reputation, and I've seen him on the highlight reels quite a bit. Younger too. I was fine with the Brewers passing on him at the time, because I thought he got a tad overpaid. When the details of the Gonzalez contract came out, I changed my opinion.

[Baldkin]

What do you base on Betancourt only lacking range when going to his right? He also had below average range going up the middle, just to a slightly lesser degree than going to his right.

 

A valid point, but Yuni was quite often positioned to shade towards second. Obviously, this was done to cover for his lack of range. At the same time, if he got to a ball, it was generally an out. As long as Gonzalez makes all the routine plays, I will be good. If he starts kicking routine grounders or throwing double play balls in to right field, I'll have a problem. My primary issue is that it seems everyone is ready to accept Gonzalez as a no hit good glove guy. Considering the contract the Brewers gave him, they would have been better served to sign Barmes in such a role, as far as I remember, he has a much better defensive reputation, and I've seen him on the highlight reels quite a bit. Younger too. I was fine with the Brewers passing on him at the time, because I thought he got a tad overpaid. When the details of the Gonzalez contract came out, I changed my opinion.

The problem was there were 3 SS's for about 6 teams. Barmes probably signed too early, actually, had he waited he probably could've gotten even more.

[MJLiverock]

YB's WAR for 10 & 11 was 0.9 and 0.5. Izturis for 09 & 10 (he was hurt for most of 11 so going with his most recent 2 years) was 0.7 and -0.3, actually worse than YB. Since 0.9 and 0.5 > 0.7 and -0.3 either WAR isn't an accurate assessment of value or the Brewers managed to bring a player who is worse than YB. He may be a bench player but he has less PHing value than a pitcher and the guy brought in to start at SS is supposed to be better than average with the glove so he won't need to be subbed for late in the game. People will get tired of seeing Izturis trotted out to PH because he is a switch hitter and weakly ground out. As much as YB was considered the worst glove in baseball, Izturis is equally considered the worst bat in baseball and based on WAR his glove can't even make up for it.