Royals sign Yuni Betancourt to be utility IF; $2 million plus incentives

[TheCrew07]

Yuni gets savaged by the Fangraphs folks. Not unexpected. But pretty funny to read:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/...e-meaning-of-betancourt/

Loved this response...."There’s this ridiculous site that says he was worth $6M over the last two years!"

 

At any rate, I still say that Yuni was a clear upgrade over Escobar. Hopefully, Gonzalez will be an upgrade over Yuni.

I guess that depends on what you're looking for in a player. Alcides was one of the best defensive SSs in baseball last season. While he certainly regressed in 2010 under Macha and appeared to lose all confidence in himself, he rebounded slightly last season. He'll never hit for power until he works at it, he's not going to naturally fill out his frame, but his body type can support an easy 20 lbs of muscle without effecting his mobility at all, maybe more. He's 6' 1"-2" and only 185 lbs, he's a toothpick for a professional athlete.

 

According to baseball-ref Escobar was exactly league average last year, he was a 2 WAR player. Yuni's late season surge made him .7 WAR player.

 

Over at fangraphs, Betancourt was at .5 WAR overall while Escobar was at 2.2 WAR. The difference is largely the defensive calculation which differ between the 2 sites.

 

Unfortunately many people have a mental image of a whipped Escobar who didn't play defense or hit like he was supposed to in 2010. I completely agree that his body language was horrible, but I've always believed and posted that 2010 was Escobar at his absolute worst. I still have no idea why Escobar could go 0-10 taking pretty good ABs while Gomez would do the same with horrible ABs and Macha would sit Escobar. It was just no way to help a young player grow into his role, they need to have the leash to overcome failure, and Alcides was just never given that much rope. There may have been more to the story behind the scenes that we don't know about (attitude/accepting coaching issues so he deserved to be disciplined), but on the surface the MLB coaching staff did everything they could to stunt his growth.

 

Alcides may never post an OPS in the low .700s like I thought he would. I thought he'd hit around .270 with 30ish doubles and a HR rate just below 10. His walk rate never supported an OBP higher than 60 points above his average (at his peak), he was never going to be an OBP guy. Even though his OPS was about 80 points lower than I would have expected he was clearly the far better player in 2011, and it wasn't even close.

 

Basically it is insulating to continue to claim that Betancourt was an upgrade over a much younger, more athletic, and more productive player when the evidence overwhelmingly supports the contrary view. Alcides deserves better, he was just the guy that replaced Hardy, and that player was going to have to hit like JJ to be accepted by the general populace, which wasn't going to happen. Hardy spent his injury and off season time wisely, he continually put on muscle while Escobar wastes his time playing winter ball, and the Brewers encouraged him to do such.

 

Yuni had plenty enough talent to be better, but he wouldn't even attempt field a ball in the proper manner. My impression from watching him was that he was a lazy waste bender who never wanted to play a ball straight up, instead always off to the side. He would never bend his knees, he would never setup a better angle for himself, his reaction time was poor, he was just terrible. Cirillo pointed out what many of us had been saying about Yuni all along on a telecast when they were playing the Rockies... Tulo does everything incredibly fundamentally sound, Yuni B does nothing that way, they even played the videos side by side. In my opinion Betancourt earned every bit of criticism he received on this site.

 

For me personally Betancourt is right up there with Alex Sanchez as the most frustrating Brewers of the modern era.

[RockCoCougars]

Basically it is insulating to continue to claim that Betancourt was an upgrade over a much younger, more athletic, and more productive player when the evidence overwhelmingly supports the contrary view.

 

In my view, Betancout 2011 > Escobar 2010, and it's not even close. I'm fairly certain that Escobar caused me to utter more curse words during a game than any Brewer since Johnny Estrada. He didn't hit at all, piled up crucial errors early in the season, mental errors on the basepaths, and basically conveyed an 'I don't care' attitude through his body language. Now in 2011, you may have a case, but that would be based on fielding alone. Escobar only hit for about six weeks out of the season. In my view, if he doesn't start hitting, he's not long as a starter in the league- I don't care how much leather he flashes.

[theavrock]

Basically it is insulating to continue to claim that Betancourt was an upgrade over a much younger, more athletic, and more productive player when the evidence overwhelmingly supports the contrary view.

 

In my view, Betancout 2011 > Escobar 2010, and it's not even close. I'm fairly certain that Escobar caused me to utter more curse words during a game than any Brewer since Johnny Estrada. He didn't hit at all, piled up crucial errors early in the season, mental errors on the basepaths, and basically conveyed an 'I don't care' attitude through his body language. Now in 2011, you may have a case, but that would be based on fielding alone. Escobar only hit for about six weeks out of the season. In my view, if he doesn't start hitting, he's not long as a starter in the league- I don't care how much leather he flashes.

May have a case in 2011???

 

Escobar posted a .633 OPS and Betancourt posted a .652 OPS. Add in 26 SB's and the difference probably closes to negligible at the plate.

Escobar was one of the better defensive SS's in MLB, Yuni was the worst.

Escobar was a 2.2 WAR player, Yuni was .5 WAR

Why bother comparing 2010 Escobar to 2011 Yuni? Obviously Escobar was a rookie in 2010 and he would only get better (as he proved in 2011). It wasn't even close, in 2011 Escobar was the better player and that's what matters. There are obviously other considerations and I am glad we traded Escobar, but in a vacuum Escobar as our 2011 SS > than Yuni so not sure how you can argue Yuni was an upgrade.

It is apparent you don't think much of Escobar and that is fine, but at least fake objectivity.

[RockCoCougars]

Basically it is insulating to continue to claim that Betancourt was an upgrade over a much younger, more athletic, and more productive player when the evidence overwhelmingly supports the contrary view.

 

In my view, Betancout 2011 > Escobar 2010, and it's not even close. I'm fairly certain that Escobar caused me to utter more curse words during a game than any Brewer since Johnny Estrada. He didn't hit at all, piled up crucial errors early in the season, mental errors on the basepaths, and basically conveyed an 'I don't care' attitude through his body language. Now in 2011, you may have a case, but that would be based on fielding alone. Escobar only hit for about six weeks out of the season. In my view, if he doesn't start hitting, he's not long as a starter in the league- I don't care how much leather he flashes.

May have a case in 2011???

 

Escobar posted a .633 OPS and Betancourt posted a .652 OPS. Add in 26 SB's and the difference probably closes to negligible at the plate.

Escobar was one of the better defensive SS's in MLB, Yuni was the worst.

Escobar was a 2.2 WAR player, Yuni was .5 WAR

Why bother comparing 2010 Escobar to 2011 Yuni? Obviously Escobar was a rookie in 2010 and he would only get better (as he proved in 2011). It wasn't even close, in 2011 Escobar was the better player and that's what matters. There are obviously other considerations and I am glad we traded Escobar, but in a vacuum Escobar as our 2011 SS > than Yuni so not sure how you can argue Yuni was an upgrade.

It is apparent you don't think much of Escobar and that is fine, but at least fake objectivity.

I watched parts of maybe five Royals games last year, hence the term 'may'. All that I know is that Escobar was running up the caboose of the league batting average lists all season until his hot streak over the summer. Then he reverted to his career norms. All that I know is if he keeps hitting a soft .250, it doesn't matter how good his glove is, he won't be a regular for long. It's not 1967 anymore.

[theavrock]

They have statistics so you don't have to watch all the games.

I'm not trying to argue that Alcides is Jose Reyes. I was saying that your argument that Yuni was an upgrade over Alcides is false from just about every rational view point.

As to it not being 1967. Thanks I was unaware of that. That being said there are plenty of people who play premium defensive positions like SS very well from the defensive standpoint and are continuously employed. Some guy named Izturis comes to mind.

Guys like that have a place on MLB rosters. Defense can outweigh offense and last year that's exactly what Escobar did. His contributions in the field outweighed his negativity at the plate. The reverse was not true for Yuni.

[RockCoCougars]

As to it not being 1967. Thanks I was unaware of that. That being said there are plenty of people who play premium defensive positions like SS very well from the defensive standpoint and are continuously employed. Some guy named Izturis comes to mind.

 

No doubt. I agree that Escobar will likely have a long career based solely on his glove. That said, if he doesn't hit, he's going to bounce around baseball as a reserve. Since he's still relatively young, I'm sure he will have a few years in K.C. to get things together. I'm not arguing that I wouldn't have traded Yuni for Escobar. My point is that Escobar was so bad in 2010, Yuni was an upgrade at shortstop in 2011.

[joepepsi]

YuniB has always reminded me of Deivi Cruz. Indeed, Yuni's OPS is .683, Cruz', .682. Deivi's last season as a regular was in Baltimore at age 30. After that he had a couple OK years as a backup and was done. YuniB is nearly at the end of the line. It's time we let him go.

[MJLiverock]

Yuni B = Cesar Izturis but at least the Brewers were smart enough to just sign Izturis to a minor league deal.

[theavrock]

Yuni B = Cesar Izturis but at least the Brewers were smart enough to just sign Izturis to a minor league deal.

Yuni B's bat = Cesar Iztruis' bat (actually Yuni is a better hitter, but not by much)

 

Izturis is a much better defender than Yuni ever was and is therefore a better player.

I don't want Izturis starting, but this is exactly the type of guy the Brewers should have on their bench.

[RightFieldCoder]

The time we let him go should have been the day after we traded for Greinke.

[StearnsFTW]

As to it not being 1967. Thanks I was unaware of that. That being said there are plenty of people who play premium defensive positions like SS very well from the defensive standpoint and are continuously employed. Some guy named Izturis comes to mind.

 

No doubt. I agree that Escobar will likely have a long career based solely on his glove. That said, if he doesn't hit, he's going to bounce around baseball as a reserve. Since he's still relatively young, I'm sure he will have a few years in K.C. to get things together. I'm not arguing that I wouldn't have traded Yuni for Escobar. My point is that Escobar was so bad in 2010, Yuni was an upgrade at shortstop in 2011.

Just because you keep saying this doesn't make it any more true.

 

They were very almost identical offensively and Escobar was worlds better defensively. How is that an upgrade?

 

2.0 WAR to 0.7 WAR. WAR isn't the be-all end-all but it's an indicator. Escobar was better than Betancourt in 2011 (and it wasn't close) and will probably widen the gap going forward.

[RockCoCougars]

As to it not being 1967. Thanks I was unaware of that. That being said there are plenty of people who play premium defensive positions like SS very well from the defensive standpoint and are continuously employed. Some guy named Izturis comes to mind.

 

No doubt. I agree that Escobar will likely have a long career based solely on his glove. That said, if he doesn't hit, he's going to bounce around baseball as a reserve. Since he's still relatively young, I'm sure he will have a few years in K.C. to get things together. I'm not arguing that I wouldn't have traded Yuni for Escobar. My point is that Escobar was so bad in 2010, Yuni was an upgrade at shortstop in 2011.

Just because you keep saying this doesn't make it any more true.

 

They were very almost identical offensively and Escobar was worlds better defensively. How is that an upgrade?

 

2.0 WAR to 0.7 WAR. WAR isn't the be-all end-all but it's an indicator. Escobar was better than Betancourt in 2011 (and it wasn't close) and will probably widen the gap going forward.

Maybe I'm not being clear enough. My point is that shortstop was upgraded in 2011 from 2010. I'm not comparing the two players stats from last year, I'm comparing the Brewer shortstop output between 2010 and 2011. Yuni was nothing to write home about last year, but Escobar was that bad in 2010. Where was the 80 page thread debating Escobar in 2010 ?(and yes, I get the 'he's a rookie' argument)

 

My point is basically that Hardy and Yuni were taken to the woodshed in '09 and '11, but Escobar got a pass for whatever reason. Bottom line, I'm glad the Brewers traded him while his value was still near it's peak.

[MJLiverock]

Yuni B = Cesar Izturis but at least the Brewers were smart enough to just sign Izturis to a minor league deal.

Yuni B's bat = Cesar Iztruis' bat (actually Yuni is a better hitter, but not by much)

 

Izturis is a much better defender than Yuni ever was and is therefore a better player.

I don't want Izturis starting, but this is exactly the type of guy the Brewers should have on their bench.

Since WAR was used as proof of how bad YB was by many I don't see how Izturis fares any better by that metric. His glove is better than YB but he may be the worst hitter in all of baseball offsetting his glove completely. YB's WAR for 10 & 11 was 0.9 and 0.5. Izturis for 09 & 10 (he was hurt for most of 11) was 0.7 and -0.3, actually worse than YB. I want no part of his bat being used to PH ever, it was bad enough with Counsell last year being trotted out there to PH.

[theavrock]

Since WAR was used as proof of how bad YB was by many I don't see how Izturis fares any better by that metric. His glove is better than YB but he may be the worst hitter in all of baseball offsetting his glove completely. YB's WAR for 10 & 11 was 0.9 and 0.5. Izturis for 09 & 10 (he was hurt for most of 11) was 0.7 and -0.3, actually worse than YB. I want no part of his bat being used to PH ever, it was bad enough with Counsell last year being trotted out there to PH.

The point was that they aren't the same player. Both of them suck as starters and I'm not jumping for joy over the signing but as a bench player I'd rather have the glove of Izturis than the bat of Yuni B.

[Thurston Fluff]

The point was that they aren't the same player. Both of them suck as starters and I'm not jumping for joy over the signing but as a bench player I'd rather have the glove of Izturis than the bat of Yuni B.

 

Someone had a good point earlier on this. Ideally a bench player should be good at something. I hope we can get someone to hit off the bench yet. Then Izturis would look even better.

[monty57]

I want no part of his bat being used to PH ever, it was bad enough with Counsell last year being trotted out there to PH.

 

One would hope that a manager would realize the roles of his bench players and use the better bats as pinch hitters and the good glove guys as late inning defensive replacements. Izturis should be used to give a starting SS some days off, and potentially to occasionally take over 2nd or 3rd late in the game to improve the defense. If Green makes the team, he should get any starts at 2B or 3B when Weeks/Ramirez need days off, and both Green and Ishakawa should easily PH over Izturis. I'm not saying this is what Roenicke will do, just that it seems to me to be the logical option.

[StearnsFTW]

As to it not being 1967. Thanks I was unaware of that. That being said there are plenty of people who play premium defensive positions like SS very well from the defensive standpoint and are continuously employed. Some guy named Izturis comes to mind.

 

No doubt. I agree that Escobar will likely have a long career based solely on his glove. That said, if he doesn't hit, he's going to bounce around baseball as a reserve. Since he's still relatively young, I'm sure he will have a few years in K.C. to get things together. I'm not arguing that I wouldn't have traded Yuni for Escobar. My point is that Escobar was so bad in 2010, Yuni was an upgrade at shortstop in 2011.

Just because you keep saying this doesn't make it any more true.

 

They were very almost identical offensively and Escobar was worlds better defensively. How is that an upgrade?

 

2.0 WAR to 0.7 WAR. WAR isn't the be-all end-all but it's an indicator. Escobar was better than Betancourt in 2011 (and it wasn't close) and will probably widen the gap going forward.

Maybe I'm not being clear enough. My point is that shortstop was upgraded in 2011 from 2010. I'm not comparing the two players stats from last year, I'm comparing the Brewer shortstop output between 2010 and 2011. Yuni was nothing to write home about last year, but Escobar was that bad in 2010. Where was the 80 page thread debating Escobar in 2010 ?(and yes, I get the 'he's a rookie' argument)

 

My point is basically that Hardy and Yuni were taken to the woodshed in '09 and '11, but Escobar got a pass for whatever reason. Bottom line, I'm glad the Brewers traded him while his value was still near it's peak.

You weren't being unclear. I just misunderstood you. My bad.

 

I think you're right, that Escobar got a pass because he was a rookie, and you may be right that they traded him at peak value. I'm not certain that's the case though. If he figures out how to get on a base (which certainly doesn't appear all that likely), he can be extremely valuable with his defense.

 

Just for the sake of argument, if he can muster a .330 OBP to go with his defense, he's a very valuable player. High risk high reward for the Royals.

[logan82]

Maybe I'm not being clear enough. My point is that shortstop was upgraded in 2011 from 2010. I'm not comparing the two players stats from last year.

 

Still not true.

 

Escobar 2010

.235/.288/.326/.614(.270 wOBA) average fielding

 

Yuni 2011

.252/.271/.381/.652(.278 wOBA) bad fielding

 

He hit marginally better(his crappy OBP offsets most of his SLG) with much worse defense. Best case, it was a wash.

[RockCoCougars]

Escobar was bad defensively in 2010. He had a knack for making an error at the worst possible time. Kind of like Weeks early in his career, but Weeks didn't come with the defensive reputation and he at least showed signs of having a clue at the plate.

[Oldcity]

Yuni gets savaged by the Fangraphs folks. Not unexpected. But pretty funny to read:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/...e-meaning-of-betancourt/

They aren't any kinder to our latest signing either.

http://www.fangraphs.com/...le-continued-employment/

 

That article criticizes using Izturis as a starter. There's nothing wrong with a minor league contract or even using him as a bench guy.

[theavrock]

Maybe I'm not being clear enough. My point is that shortstop was upgraded in 2011 from 2010. I'm not comparing the two players stats from last year.

 

Still not true.

 

Escobar 2010

.235/.288/.326/.614(.270 wOBA) average fielding

 

Yuni 2011

.252/.271/.381/.652(.278 wOBA) bad fielding

 

He hit marginally better(his crappy OBP ofsets most of his SLG) with much worse defense. Best case is it was a wash.

To follow up on this:

Escobar 2010 WAR = .9

Yuni 2011 WAR = .5

I know WAR is a disputed stat, but saying that Yuni's 2011 was a clear upgrade over Escobar's 2010 is wrong. If you want to argue against WAR and use the eyeball test that's fine, but its hardly clear.

This is all a moot point though because we likely don't get Greinke without giving up Alcides.

[TooLiveBrew]

Don't use WAR, you don't have to. Betancourt sucks as a hitter & he sucks as a fielder. It hardly even takes trying to improve over him. I doubt you can find one comment from a scout anywhere that praises anything Betancourt does, except for occasionally run into a pitch & hit it hard. Meanwhile scouts all across the league gush over Escobar's defense, or Sea Bass's for that matter.

[theavrock]

Don't use WAR, you don't have to. Betancourt sucks as a hitter & he sucks as a fielder. It hardly even takes trying to improve over him. I doubt you can find one comment from a scout anywhere that praises anything Betancourt does, except for occasionally run into a pitch & hit it hard. Meanwhile scouts all across the league gush over Escobar's defense, or Sea Bass's for that matter.

Yea I tried that earlier. Was going for another means of showing how silly the argument is.

[RockCoCougars]

I don't care what the scouts or stats say, Escobar was putrid at shortstop in 2010. For every 'rangy' highlight reel type play he made, he'd kick a routine ball or botch a double play. Bottom line, a highlight reel every few weeks and a Baseball America 'rankings pedigree' shouldn't make the guy above criticism.

[Ennder]

I don't care what the scouts or stats say, Escobar was putrid at shortstop in 2010. For every 'rangy' highlight reel type play he made, he'd kick a routine ball or botch a double play. Bottom line, a highlight reel every few weeks and a Baseball America 'rankings pedigree' shouldn't make the guy above criticism.

Errors don't lower a players value anymore than not making it to a ball in the first place. Escobar was better defensively in 2010 as Yuni was in 2011 even with the errors. The defense just looks better for a guy like Yuni who just can't make it to a lot of balls that 90% of other SS in baseball do.