Casey McGehee traded to Pirates for reliever Jose Veras [Latest: Veras headed for arby hearing]

[monty57]

I think it's good that the Brewers stuck to their guns and took this to arbitration, even though there wasn't a big gap in the bid/ask. Nothing against Veras, but the Brewers gave him a fair offer, and from the article on milwaukeebrewers.com, it doesn't sound like Veras' group was going to budge on their asking price.

 

That said, Veras could be a big part of the bullpen this year. You know Roenicke is going to want a "7th inning guy" spot, and I hope Veras is going to be able to fill this role and give us a lockdown 'pen when we get quality starts from the rotation. If he can do this, he will certainly be worth much more to the 2012 Brewers than McGehee would have been as a backup 1B/3B.

[umphrey]

That said, Veras could be a big part of the bullpen this year. You know Roenicke is going to want a "7th inning guy" spot, and I hope Veras is going to be able to fill this role and give us a lockdown 'pen when we get quality starts from the rotation. If he can do this, he will certainly be worth much more to the 2012 Brewers than McGehee would have been as a backup 1B/3B.

 

In a Roenicke Q&A he specifically mentioned a 7th inning guy and he considered Loe and Veras the two main candidates. Here's the full quote about our bullpen:

 

We have some spots to fill in the middle of the bullpen. We'll want to see what (Jose) Veras looks like. I have an idea we'll want to use him in the seventh inning, along with Kameron (Loe). But we'll want to see how he fits. We have Manny Parra and Zach Braddock coming back, so that gives us a couple of left-handers to look at. We feel pretty comfortable with Marco Estrada as the sixth starter (if needed) and long man in the bullpen. I think we have a pretty good idea of what we want to do.

[TooLiveBrew]

I almost don't believe my eyes as I'm typing this, but the Brewers have a really good pitching staff again. There's talent, & there's depth.

 

I guess I'm glad the Brewers won the arbitration case... not that big of a deal though. Just good to be able to head all-out into ST now!

[logan82]

I bugs me a little bit that there might be a "7th inning guy." I hope the manager focuses on matchups. It is bad enough we will have designated guys for the 8th and 9th innings.

[umphrey]

I bugs me a little bit that there might be a "7th inning guy." I hope the manager focuses on matchups. It is bad enough we will have designated guys for the 8th and 9th innings.

 

Why? I think having a closer is important. Mix and mashing the 9th inning isn't a good idea to me. As for the 8th, usually I would agree, but with KRod you just give him the 8th. The difference in quality is massive between KRod and Veras/Loe/etc. Also KRod needs to pitch 1 inning, not 1.1 or .2. He loves to walk 2 guys and give up a single before getting 3 outs in a row (which drives me crazy) but because of that you need to bring him in for a full inning.

 

Maybe on some days you could do better by giving him the 7th to get through the middle of the order and give the 8th to a lesser reliever against the bottom of the order. I don't think that works with KRod though. Most relievers are such extreme creatures of habit, they want to know well in advance how they are going to be used so they can prepare mentally/physically for it. KRod is like that, it seems.

 

7th inning and earlier, the talent is a wash, so I hope we pitch whoever is throwing well that day and find a matchup we like. I'm glad we added Veras because we didn't have anyone else in that group who could get strike outs. The trade off is he's wild, so we can't use him against patient hitters.

[CheezWizHed]

Welcome umphrey to BF.net's annual "Managers are dumb for using the closer in the 9th only" discussion.

 

I'll summarize prior discussions:

Against: Your best reliever should be used in high leverage situations. That isn't always the 9th inning. Sometimes its bases loaded with 2 outs in the 7th inning.

 

Pro: Players play better when they have a fixed role. That way they are prepared in the 9th inning to come in a pitch.

 

Its one thing to have Ax and KROD as your obvious best relievers is one thing. But down around Veras and Loe, its not so obvious. So better to work based on match-ups rather than just slot someone in.

 

And having Ax and KROD should afford a manager to be more flexible. If you are in a jam in the 6th or 7th and it looks like the bottom of the order is coming up in the 8th, why not bring up one of your better relievers to get you out of the jam?

[monty57]

I bugs me a little bit that there might be a "7th inning guy." I hope the manager focuses on matchups. It is bad enough we will have designated guys for the 8th and 9th innings.

 

Generally speaking, I agree. However, since I figure Roenicke is going to do it, I'd rather it be someone who can pitch against RHB & LHB. I don't know if Veras will do well in the role, but if his aquisition means that Loe will not be put in a role where he will regularly face LHB, then it's a good thing.

 

Of course, our best case scenario may be for Parra and Braddock to be healthy and productive. One of them could be matched with Veras in the 7th inning to play the matchup, and one could be matched with Loe prior to the 7th inning to play the matchup. That might almost be a Roenicke-proof bullpen.

[umphrey]

Welcome umphrey to BF.net's annual "Managers are dumb for using the closer in the 9th only" discussion.

 

I'll summarize prior discussions:

Against: Your best reliever should be used in high leverage situations. That isn't always the 9th inning. Sometimes its bases loaded with 2 outs in the 7th inning.

 

Pro: Players play better when they have a fixed role. That way they are prepared in the 9th inning to come in a pitch.

 

Its one thing to have Ax and KROD as your obvious best relievers is one thing. But down around Veras and Loe, its not so obvious. So better to work based on match-ups rather than just slot someone in.

 

And having Ax and KROD should afford a manager to be more flexible. If you are in a jam in the 6th or 7th and it looks like the bottom of the order is coming up in the 8th, why not bring up one of your better relievers to get you out of the jam?

 

Yeah, I was expecting as much. New year, new players, new discussion though. It's pretty simple this year IMO. KRod is a closer, he's used to having an inning. He probably wouldnt adjust well. Leave the 8th and 9th alone and go case by case for the other bullpen innings. Loe, Veras, etc. never had the luxury of settling into an inning slot and they never will because they aren't good enough, so they just have to live with it.

 

Clarification: KRod-8 Ax-9, not suggesting KRod should close

[logan82]

I would hope outside of the closer a reliever's confidence isn't so fragile they can't be told "be ready anytime after the 6th." Most relievers can get through an inning without giving up runs if they start with the bases empty a large percentage of the time. I would rather have an ace reliever available when your starter is gassed and loading the bases instead of holding them back till the 8th or 9th after the game is already lost. So I feel it is kind of a waste to pigeonhole relievers into innings. Unfortunately most managers are going to designate a closer and relegate him to the 9th inning when the team is up by 3 or fewer runs. I don't like it but that seems to be the way most operate. I really don't like holding back more and more relievers till later in the game. Why should we have to make the bullpen manager proof?

 

On the other hand I am not advocating the manager being as extreme as LaRussa. That guy had issues.

[monty57]

Why should we have to make the bullpen manager proof?

 

Because I don't trust our current manager to make a good in-game decision, and I really don't trust him to make a good out-of-game decision unless it's blatently obvious (i.e. keeping Loe in the 8th inning over Saito/Hawkins until K-Rod was acquired, keeping McGehee & Yuni starting all year because we didn't pick up an All Star at SS or 3B, signing Ramirez because otherwise Roenicke didn't know who to use as his cleanup hitter).

 

Maybe a designated spot for a reliever isn't "statistically optimal," but it sure beats having the manager's gut tell him Loe's a good choice with three lefties coming up.

[umphrey]

Veras is in arbitration until 2014. Casey McGehee until 2015. Casey is making about $500k more this year (negligible?). Who was the more valuable trade piece?

[monty57]

Veras is in arbitration until 2014. Casey McGehee until 2015. Casey is making about $500k more this year (negligible?). Who was the more valuable trade piece?

 

I believe someone mentioned this earlier, but there's "trade value" and then there's "value to the team."

 

It's entirly possible that McGehee has more "trade value" as he's a 3B and Veras is a middle reliever. If both play to their peak ability, we'll probably look like the losers of the trade. However, after signing Ramirez, McGehee had little value to the Brewers while Veras should have a lot of value to the Brewers, so really for the Brewers we should be more concerned with how Veras does going forward rather than what McGehee ends up doing. If Veras pans out, we could have the best bullpen in the majors, which could greatly help our chance of winning the division.

 

I guess the real test is that Melvin probably called every team in the league before calling another NL Central team, and the best offer he got was for Veras, which means that at the time of the trade, they had equal "trade value," while Veras is more valueable to the Brewers. Like most trades, this one could benefit both teams, or one of the players could completely flop going forward, making it a one-sided trade.

[topper09er]

Basically, RRR's strategy is the analogous to this scenario:

 

You have Albert Pujols on your bench for some reason, bottom of the 8th bases loaded down by 1, and you choose to leave Pujols on the bench because you only want to use him in the 9th because the 9th is more important (and you told him before the game you would use him in the 9th so he might get nervous and under perform if he was used at any other time). So you let the current batter hit and use Pujols to lead off the 9th inning no matter who is due up in the 9th even if it is your 2nd best hitter (just like a manager will pull the 8th inning man even if he strikes out the side and bring in his closer even if he is struggling lately).

 

Very frustrating to watch your best arm sitting in the pen not facing the best hitter with men on base in the 8th inning.

 

Axford>>>KRod, Axford is an elite relief pitcher, possibly the best in the majors, at least based on last season. There is no reason Axford could not pitch more than 1 inning every once in a while.

[fondybrewfan]

I get what you are saying there but there are probably 28 other managers in MLB that would do the same thing as RR if they had Krod and Axford in the 8th and 9th. It is just an accepted practice and likely won't change anytime soon. If we had a dominant LOOGY maybe that could changes things a little bit but we certianly won't have that in 2012 in all likelihood

[logan82]

I am sure most managers would go with Axford in the 9th. I am not sure they would designate an 8th inning guy let alone a 7th inning guy. I hope the manager won't designate a 7th inning guy.

 

Because I don't trust our current manager to make a good in-game decision, and I really don't trust him to make a good out-of-game decision unless it's blatently obvious

 

That is backwards thinking in my opinion. You should build a good team and find somebody who will get the most out of it, not find a guy and protect him from himself.