Aramis Ramirez to Brewers - 3/$32 + $4M buyout for 2015

[brewmann04]

i mean really what do you want Melvin to do when there was no chance to keep Prince. Almost everyone wanted to get rid of casey and yuni and that what he did .

so unless we were getting a large Influx of cash. I for one applaud the moves Melvin made.

[paul253]

You have no idea what Atanassio has in mind for payroll etc. If it's

your money then complain all you want, otherwise, I wish people would

just shut their pie holes about how much their team spends on certain

players.

 

With all due respect you don't know what he is thinking either. I don't think people are saying that this for sure will not allow us to sign Greinke. I am saying that IF it doesn't allow us to sign Greinke I'm going to be pretty upset. And no it's not our money per se. But we are the ones who pay $10+ so we can park closer than a mile to the stadium. And we are the ones who have seen increase in ticket prices every time the Brewers have a decent season. If it weren't for our money, Mark A. wouldn't be making any money either. He needs us just as much as we need him.

 

I am sorry some people don't like the idea of giving a 33 year old player a three year contract worth well over $30 million, especially when he have a prospect whom many of us would like to see be given a shot to play. You have to at least acknowledge that the Brewers have finite resources to pursue a winning team and need to spend them wisely. And you have to acknowledge that there are HUGE question marks after this season with the rotation. The Brewers have shown us in the past that they cannot win without good pitching. So what IF Marcum and Greinke leave because this deal limits Mark A.'s ability to offer them competitive deals? We don't know what he has in mind but neither do you. You can say the deal won't push us over the top with about as much certainty as someone else can say it will. In other words, none of us know. So instead of insulting people for thinking what they are thinking, do what everybody else and try to convince them they are wrong or their fears are overblown.

[danzig6767]

Sorry but I just don't get this desire to hate on every deal that is more than 2 years and $5M/per

 

This is pretty off base. The dislike of the A-Ram contract at 3 years is mostly because of his age and durability.

Yeah, if A-Ram were 28 instead of 34 (or so), I don't think a single person would have a problem with a 3 year deal here.

If he was 28 he would have been looking for a 5 or 6 year deal.

Yep, that's why Ramirez just came off a contract that paid him 80 plus million dollars. The cost this time was around 36 million instead of 80 even though he is coming off a very fine year for the sole reason of his age.

 

Obviously there are risks involved when signing any 33 year old baseball player for three years, but at least the season Aramis had last season wasn't something that looked more like an aberration. Instead, his numbers looked very similar to the ones he's been posting since 2004.

[TheCrew07]

i mean really what do you want Melvin to do when there was no chance to keep Prince.

That's pretty easy...

 

Instead of buying aging impact or veteran talent with our prospects, sell our players at the appropriate time to keep cycling fresh young talent back into the system.

 

Have the payroll setup where the most valuable players actually make the most money. and no K-Rod is not one of our most valuable players, no reliever is.

 

Quit maxing out the payroll because you can, many years we've spent money just to spend it.

 

Quit offering contracts to players that shouldn't be part of the organization's long-term plans like McGehee, Helms, etc.

 

Lock up our young core players prior to arbitration buying out FA years like Tampa has continually done. Gallardo's contract and Braun's first extension were wonderful moves.

 

Don't ever sign another player to Braun's second extension where the production won't match the dollars at the end, the contract isn't movable.

 

Remove Reid Nichols from his position.

 

Give young players a chance to succeed.

 

Quit making moves for rental players using draft picks compensation we never get as justification for the move, hopefully the collective bargaining agreement has changed this practice.

 

Quit targeting high floor/low ceiling young players in trades.

 

Quit signing FA pitchers to market value contracts, especially relievers.

 

Quit signing players over 30 to deals 3 years or longer.

 

Quit building teams solely around SLG. There is no such thing as "good enough" pitching, we need a good young stable of impact arms to remain competitive long-term, building that stable should be his primary focus.

 

Quit playing whack-a-mole with roster spots from year to year. For example, trading 2 SSs in a 3 year window to end up with Yuni was incredibly short sighted.

 

None of this had to go down the way it did, the dominoes didn't have to fall this way, he just chose to make them fall the way they way have. In short he operates this franchise like he's in a much larger market, only looking at each year's MLB team, he leaves the organization building to people that haven't proven they are capable of doing it which is one of the reasons the farm system was so bad coming into last season. Philosophically I want him to be Andrew Friedman or at least have evolved his philosophy over time, he's certainly not Friedman, and his philosophy really hasn't evolved, his moves for the 2011 season just worked out wonderfully compared to the moves he made in the past. Sabathia wasn't enough in 2008, we got lucky with the Mets collapse, the Brewers earned the division title and post season berth in 2011.

 

The simple truth is that since Melvin isn't likely to change anytime soon, he is who he is, I just want him to move on to a different opportunity. Success isn't sustainable the way he's constructed the roster.

[chickinbrickin]

I personally really like the signing. Aramis is almost a lock to hit 30+HR next year playing at half the games at Miller Park. Like other members mentioned earlier I believe A Ram, A Gonz, and Gamel will equal the production of Casey, Yuni, Prince, and the defense of will improve too (No thanks to Ramirez).

 

With that said I also was looking forward to seeing what Green could do at 3B, but there are big ifs in that scenerio. I am 10x more comfortable with the thought of A Ram and Gamel as I was with the thought of Green and Gamel. I am way higher on Gamel than Green. Gamel has produced his entire minor league career. Green has been solid, but who is to say his production from last year at AAA would ever translate to major leagues. I think Green still plays a big role next year and will get a good amount of time at 3B when A Ram gets a day off or gives Gamel a break at 1st.

[fondybrewfan]

From that list you would think Melvin was the worst GM in the history of sports. Melvin has kept this team consistenly competitive for a while now; considering where things were 5-10 years ago I would say Melvin has done a pretty darn good job. Perfect no; every GM makes mistakes, but he has gotten us to the playoffs twice, the NLCS once, and atleast in contention for the playoffs for other years as well.

 

Sure maybe in bubble a GM could operate how you suggest but in the real world it isn't realistic. There isn't one GM in baseball that hasn't broken more than a couple of your rules.

[RockCoCougars]

For the life of me, I could never ever figure out why fans criticize how much money a ball club is paying someone. Is it your money?? NO!

 

I shared this attitude back in the day. Then the Brewers started talking about giving Jeff Suppan an eight figure deal, and actually went ahead and did it. Ever since then, I've been living vicariously through Attanasio's wallet.

[DHonks]

I love the signing, particularly since in the Trade Rumors thread, I predicted 3 years and $36 million. Still haven't heard the buyout or option, but I have a chance of nailing one for once.

 

The McGehee trade makes sense since I wouldn't have advocated offering him arbitration due to budgetary constraints. As of now, our team is better at 3b, SS, CF (platoon entire year), 2b (healthy), and in the pen (full season of K-Rod). The only positions we are weaker are 1b (might not be a huge dropoff if Gamel can keep decent OBP, crack 20 hr, and play defense) and LF (Braun out for 1-2 months with Gindl will possibly help the team realize how expendable Hart is)

[PeaveyFury]

my opinions haven't changed much since 2007.

 

I think you (and a lot of people) would be better served to acknowledge that while you have a preferred way to build a team, it's not the sole/only way to be successful at baseball.

[umphrey]

For the life of me, I could never ever figure out why fans criticize how much money a ball club is paying someone. Is it your money?? NO!

 

I shared this attitude back in the day. Then the Brewers started talking about giving Jeff Suppan an eight figure deal, and actually went ahead and did it. Ever since then, I've been living vicariously through Attanasio's wallet.

 

 

I would agree except for in this case, what was the alternative? I just don't see how people would rather have the worst left side of the infield on baseball again to maybe extend a pitcher and add a slightly better bench player or two

[Bernman23]

The young players should have plenty of a chance to succeed in spite of this signing.

 

As of right now Gamel is projected as the everyday first baseman, and even if Doug acquires someone to receive more starts there, he could man the LF position for the first 50 games until Braun returns. Subsequently he could get over 50% of the starts against righties backing up 3 positions (1B, LF, RF).

 

As for Green he could backup two positions (3B, 2B) to receive about 2/5 of the AB's vs. righties. That's not bad for his rookie season.

 

They should receive plenty of action this year to develop while the Crew doesn't risk being overly reliant on them when they are fighting for a playoff spot. Ideally Roenicke/Melvin would have integrated Green more when Casey was struggling, so both he and Gamel wouldn't be rookies this year, but that's in the past.

[DHonks]

Green needs more time in AAA. The last time he had success before the 2/3rds of a season this year was pre-Sabathia trade. I love his potential, but I want to make sure he had ample time to make adjustments, and I'm a bit worried that last year was just a ridiculous hot streak starting in mid-May. Hence why I'd like to see Green in AAA for depth for '12 and part of '13.

[MNBrew]

...The only positions we are weaker are 1b (might not be a huge dropoff if Gamel can keep decent OBP, crack 20 hr, and play defense) and LF (Braun out for 1-2 months with Gindl will possibly help the team realize how expendable Hart is)

If Gindl can come up and prove he can produce decently, I'd be all in favor of trading Hart for a solid non-MLB prospect. I like Corey, but all things being equal and their production amply justifying it, I'd much rather keep Greinke &/or Marcum around than Hart past next year. We've got more young players who can potentially be solid corner OF than who will be immediate & actual #1/#2 starters.

[gregmag]

Green needs more time in AAA. The last time he had success before the 2/3rds of a season this year was pre-Sabathia trade. I love his potential, but I want to make sure he had ample time to make adjustments, and I'm a bit worried that last year was just a ridiculous hot streak starting in mid-May. Hence why I'd like to see Green in AAA for depth for '12 and part of '13.

You've said this a few times. You may be right, but you have to remember that he hurt his wrist. What he did last year fits the pattern of a lot of hitters who have that injury, as I understand it. They struggle to hit for any power for a couple of years, then they come back strong. I think that fact has to figure prominently in any analysis of what Green has done since 2008.

 

Then again, I said the same thing about Brad Nelson, so what do I know?

[DHonks]

greg, I also think that since Green isn't likely to be a starter in the next few years, I want him starting in AAA rotating between 2b and 3b to be ready (since we know Weeks and Aramis Ramirez will both have injuries at times). I would expect him to be in the the majors plenty in the next two years, but I like the idea of actually letting a logjam build in AAA rather than trading it away

[danzig6767]

I haven't read any of the thread but based on history I figure I'll be in the minority once again since I'm not raving about what a genius Melvin is.

Oh come on. Please. As usual, your analysis here is very smart, IMHO. But do you have to aggrandize yourself and broadly insult everybody else in this way?

I didn't know what that meant and had to look it up, good word. I assure you that wasn't my intent, I tend to get blasted for being a Melvin hater or playing with revisionist history when my opinions haven't changed much since 2007. The posts in this thread about winning the payroll war and why should it matter what Melvin pays someone because it's not our money make it pretty clear that many people still haven't taken the time or don't care to understand the other side of these arguments.

Well first of all, maybe if you didn't so often make false remarks as you did here again about fellow posters, you wouldn't get criticized.

 

You start off by saying that you haven't read any of the thread, but then throw out a completely wrong and condescending remark about being a minority among others who supposedly were "raving" about what a genius Melvin is for this move. Yet, you aren't in the minority at all on that front given that not only hasn't anyone called Doug a genius, there was roughly a 50/50 split on the signing.

 

As for your claim to regularly getting blasted by other posters, from threads where i remember seeing posters disagree with you, it's mainly always been for the same thing. You make largely the same long post that you've posted numerous other times, just worded a little differently. In those posts you'll almost always comment about how if Melvin wasn't such a bad GM, he'd have traded for Matt Cain and/or multiple other highly thought of young starters which you simply assumed were available to be traded for based on internet rumors, yet most to nearly all these pitchers you would mention were never traded to any other team, not just the Brewers. That would be 29 other GM's who didn't get those young/cheap starters either who likely weren't even really available anyways unless another team made a super great offer given that high potential young pre-arbitration starters with great arms are arguably the most valuable commodity in the game.

 

A sizable amount of posters here get leery whenever Melvin trades any of our better prospects since Milwaukee is a small market. I certainly do and Melvin has made his share moves over the years i disagreed with. Few here that i've seen consider Doug to be some incredible genius level GM. When though you regularly bash him for not trading for certain young players/pitchers which you just assumed were available to be had and have no clue what would be the real price to acquire them even if the other team wouldn't just hang up immediately, it's hard to take that seriously.

[MNBrew]

Uh, if Green's the 3rd corner IF on this team -- when you need 3 anyway -- then what logjam is getting traded away?

 

It also seems many on here like to find ways to blow off anyone's hot streak. Given Green's pedigree and considering the broken hammate injury and the typical accompanying recovery time, one could also easily argue that he has nothing left to prove in AAA. Hypothetically, if that's the case, then you'd be just as guilty as many posters accuse Roenicke of being in terms of totally burying a young player.

[Robideaux]

There is plenty to criticize Melvin for in terms of long term team building/planning. For me, the trade of JJ Hardy and the subsequent Yuni season is the prime example of where a lack of foresight put the Brewers in a bad spot. But as much as the Ramirez contract could become an albatross in two years, in my opinion we are in a win-now window. The team as currently constructed has a good shot at the playoffs in 2012. It is no guarantee, but there isn't another team in the division that is clearly superior. I don't know how this move impacts our ability to sign Greinke to an extension, but I do know that in an offseason where losing Prince was inevitable, the Ramirez move helps solidify what could have been a black hole at third. We will be better off at 3B and SS this year, so as long as 1B isn't a complete disaster, our offense should be able to absorb the loss of Prince. Chances are we will be rebuilding regardless of this move in a year or two by the time the Ramirez contract has a decent chance of looking bad, and at that point how much does it really matter? I lived through too many rebuilding years not to be excited that this move helps our chances of making the postseason this year. The Braun situation stings, but there is a lot to be excited about for Brewers fans in 2012. I can't tell others how they should feel, but I am happy to enjoy the ride.

[Ennder]

There is no reason to think this was an 80 win team before this signing, Fielder just wasn't THAT valuable. Even if last years team was really more of a 90 win team that over produced Fielder doesn't drop us below .500. As constructed if Braun doesn't get suspended this team is almost as good as last years right now. The bullpen is just as good, the rotation is the same, the minor league players are all a year closer and we have mostly offset the loss of Fielder at this point assuming whatever 1B we throw out there can produce at a positive WAR. The biggest worry for me right now is backup at the IF positions since we have 3 injury concerns and I don't think we have major league quality options at 2B, SS or 3B in the minors (sorry not a Green guy).

[RightFieldCoder]

Our Pythagorean expectation from last year is 91 wins so we were 5 wins over. Luck could turn bad this year and we end up 5 wins under. That puts us at 86. It isn't a stretch to say that losing Fielder and Braun bumps us to around .500 with bad luck. Aramis of 2010 would negate the improvement of AGonz.

 

I like this signing for 2012, but I'm getting worried about the age of this team, lack of prospects coming, and lack of giving current prospects opportunities to succeed.

[jhart05]

Sorry, I'd like to believe, but I'm just not feeling it like last off season.

 

I think Ramirez is going to be a cancer in what was seemingly a close knit, tight clubhouse.

I think the loss of Fielder will be felt on the field of course but also in the clubhouse more than we know right now.

Braun being out for 50 games certainly isn't going to help things.

I think Gamel is a headcase and don't think he's any kind of answer at 1B.

Don't think Morgan will be able to repeat the season he just had.

Corey Hart is not a leadoff hitter, they need him to be a 3 thru 6 hitter now, but for some stupid reason he can't hit there.

 

I don't know, I think they are around .500 and just don't see them making the playoffs.

[brewmann04]

I like the move does get us a bat that we need in the lineup and allows green to be brough along slow. I hope the Brewers give gamel a legit shot at 1b and see what he can do.

[pretendastronaut]

Contract details from Ken Rosenthal:

 

A. Ramirez deal with #Brewers: $6M in 12, $10M in 13, $16M in 14, $4M buyout on mutual option for 15. $6M deferred in third year.

[Patrick425]

Contract details from Ken Rosenthal:

 

A. Ramirez deal with #Brewers: $6M in 12, $10M in 13, $16M in 14, $4M buyout on mutual option for 15. $6M deferred in third year.

What is meant by $6M deferred in 3rd year? $6M from years 1&2 deferred to year 3? $6M of the $16M in year 3 deferred to some future year?

 

[pretendastronaut]

I took it to mean that 6M of the 3rd year is deferred to a future year.