Brewers sign SS Alex Gonzalez (one year, plus vesting option)

[Baldkin]

Lucroy really does, he showed it early in the season last year. Honestly, it really seemed like he wore down as the season went on. Considering he started the year on the DL, and still finished 5th in MLB in games caught, it's something to look at. There is no reason that Kottaras can't play against a tough RHP on occasion to give Luc another couple days off a month.

[TooLiveBrew]

I like Lucroy, but it wasn't like he had good months & bad months last season, he had a good first month-&-a-half basically, and then was terrible as a hitter the rest of the season. To further underscore how much the good start to the season shouldn't be overstated, we're talking samples of 139 PAs v. 329 PAs. And, ostensibly, Luc should've performed better as the season wore on, since his Spring Training was essentially the month of April. He has a long way to go as a hitter; I'm just not convinced he has the raw bat speed to ever be more than just an average hitter for a catcher.

[monty57]

and Luc continues to develop into a hitter with great contact and strong OBP tools he showed in the minors I can't see him never moving up the lineup

 

I think that works against him in Roenicke's lineup. He likes Lucroy's ability to get on base to get the pitcher up instead of leading off the next inning. He figures a guy with lower OBP / higher SLG is better at 6-7, where he can knock in the good hitters from the middle of the order.

 

Lucroy really does, he showed it early in the season last year. Honestly, it really seemed like he wore down as the season went on. Considering he started the year on the DL, and still finished 5th in MLB in games caught, it's something to look at. There is no reason that Kottaras can't play against a tough RHP on occasion to give Luc another couple days off a month.

 

I completely agree with you. I don't overly dislike the "Wolf's private catcher" thing, because if it helps Wolf pitch better, then I'm fine with it. However, that doesn't mean he can't play when Wolf's not on the mound. Last year, not only did Lucroy catch nearly every non-Wolf start (even if it was a day game after a night game), he also came into games for Kottaras when Wolf was taken out. If Kottaras is really that bad, then he needs to be gotten rid of in favor of Maldonado or someone else who can give Lucroy some time off.

[GormanHarvey]

I like Kottaras a lot, but I think it may be time to give Maldonado his shot. Watching George try to throw out base runners is painful. MM had a really good year at AAA last year and he's a fine defender with a great arm. Plus he's apparently a helluva barber

[reillymcshane]

If Gonzalez can produce a 1.5 WAR in 2012, it's a solid upgrade over Yuni - who was at 0.5 for Fangraphs (0.7 for baseball-reference.com).

 

I think he can do it. He was at 1.1 last year for Fangraphs (1.3 for base-ball reference). His hitting should improve at Miller Park. At 35, the age is a concern. Guys can fall off a cliff at this age.

 

People are going to get frustrated by his strikeouts, but I know what kind of player he is. I also know what the options were on the market (and the prices attached to various players). Would I have liked Jimmy Rollins? Sure. But not at the price.

 

Gonzalez is an okay guy to have, considering the alternatives. I think we overpaid, but the options weren't attractive.

 

I'm happy that we have a guy who can actually make the routine plays. I'll give up some strikeouts for a much better fielder.

[gbpdc]

I am excited to the increase in defense (especially Gonzalez's range), it really made me mad to watch Yuni not even try to get at some of the balls hit to short last year, I realize he probably wouldn't have gotten to them, but why not try?

 

I can deal with the strikeouts we will see from Gonzalez, if he strikes out at least he has seen three pitches, compared to Yuni's weak first or second pitch pop ups, not to mention his 6 DPs with the bases loaded.

[Jaycruiser99]

With Yuni it was the plays that "average" fan didnt see that angered me. Balls that were hit a little bit to the left or right of him he would let go past him. It was wholely frustrating to watch a ball that even a semi decent SS dives for go rolling by Yuni. I like AGon for his D and I dont expect much more but we will see his impact in the number of runners he prevents...

[JohnBriggs12]

With Yuni it was the plays that "average" fan didnt see that angered me. Balls that were hit a little bit to the left or right of him he would let go past him. It was wholely frustrating to watch a ball that even a semi decent SS dives for go rolling by Yuni. I like AGon for his D and I dont expect much more but we will see his impact in the number of runners he prevents...

 

The problem I have with all you Yuni haters, is that you come up with this stuff that isn't quantified, and I've been watching baseball for 50 years and the number of balls that fall into the category you describe over the course of last season I say was greatly exaggerated. Then when that happened the once or twice a month you all said, "See, he sucks". Oh sure, he could have dove for more and gotten dirty, but not gotten outs. Big deal. You guys also ignore his defensive strengths. Yuni had great hands turning double plays. He also was very accurate in getting the ball to Weeks. He made some errors but this is a franchise that once had Jose Valentin making 35 in a year and he got nowhere near the venom directed at him for his lack of defense.

 

Judging by the team ERA, and the fact that the team won 96 games with Betancourt at SS for the vast majority, it's hard for me to believe he cost them that many runs. Plus he knocked in his fair share and was one of the most productive hitters they had in the postseason.

[TooLiveBrew]

The problem I have with all you Yuni haters,

 

Leading off a post like this doesn't exactly engender good discussion. The problem I have with you, specifically, here... or Yuni-apologists in general, is the apparent lack of seeing what's obvious to the '99%' in this discussion. I honestly don't think this is overstating it... if you didn't see Betancourt as the biggest 'regular player' weakness on last season's team, I don't think you watched enough games. It was that evident. He's bad by stats... he's bad by the 'eye test' ... he's bad by scouts. There's no objective evidence of anything remotely close to "Yuni Betancourt just gets a bad rap from you young people who don't have enough fan cred as me".

 

This isn't something you can lump in as the "stats people" being elitist snobs who just don't understand the nuances of baseball that you do, having watched for 50 seasons. The guy is a bad player at the MLB level -- on defense & offense. This isn't up for debate. This is clinging to the idea that you're fighting the good fight against the irrational masses who just don't see that twinkle in Yuni's eye -- and stats -- that you, one of the educated few, see.

 

The 'Yuni lovers' lined up, rank & file, prior to the dude playing one inning for the Brewers. When he stunk basically all season long, objectivity be damned, the people who called him out for sucking were just wrong -- they don't 'get it'. And especially the people who (correctly so) said he was a bad player as soon as he was acquired... before he'd played a single game for the Brewres. They were, and apparently are, still 'just wrong'. It's annoying, because I feel the objectivity in the Yuni discussions is decidedly one-way, & it's certainly not the Yuni apologists who are being objective here.

[RockCoCougars]

I think that there are two sides to this argument, gentlemen. The truth is somewhere in between. Both camps, lovers and haters, filled rank before the first pitch was thrown of 2011. The stat people or those who followed blogs already had it ingrained in their heads that Yuni was the worst starting player in Brewers history. The 'lovers' were either more subjective or contrarian... based on who you ask. I've come out with my belief that while, not a good player, Yuni wasn't as bad as most believe. This is probably because I hate both strikeouts and throwing errors, and Yuni had relatively few of those. Rightly or wrongly, I also believe that 'ranginess' and OBP have become a tad overrated in the past few years.

 

I like to make the comparison between Yuni and Drew Gooden. Gooden was another guy that the armchair blog posters hated from the day that he signed. This is without him ever playing a game for the Bucks, and because of some 'advanced' basketball stats, which I'm not knowledgeable about (nor do I care to be). However from watching the games, though Gooden has some very obvious warts (namely defense), I think that it's hard to dispute that the Bucks are a better team with him on the floor as opposed to the alternative (considering Bogut's injury).

[Ennder]

I've been watching baseball for 50 years and the number of balls that fall into the category you describe over the course of last season I say was greatly exaggerated. Then when that happened the once or twice a month you all said, "See, he sucks". Oh sure, he could have dove for more and gotten dirty, but not gotten outs. Big deal. You guys also ignore his defensive strengths. Yuni had great hands turning double plays. He also was very accurate in getting the ball to Weeks. He made some errors but this is a franchise that once had Jose Valentin making 35 in a year and he got nowhere near the venom directed at him for his lack of defense.

 

Judging by the team ERA, and the fact that the team won 96 games with Betancourt at SS for the vast majority, it's hard for me to believe he cost them that many runs. Plus he knocked in his fair share and was one of the most productive hitters they had in the postseason.

 

 

I couldn't dislike a post more than this, it shows a complete lack of understanding about the reality of baseball. I don't mean that as an insult even if it obviously is insulting but this entire post is so absurd that it has no grasp in reality. Betancourt is horrible defensively and if anything the stats understate how bad he is.

 

If they started tracking errors by giving them to balls that go right by a player that 90% of the fielders in the league turn into an out he would have had at least 40 errors last year and most likely 50+, it was just painful to watch.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think that there are two sides to this argument, gentlemen. The truth is somewhere in between. Both camps, lovers and haters, filled rank before the first pitch was thrown of 2011.

First of all, let me say that you addressing us as "gentleman" makes me regret my lack of owning a monocle.

 

Secondly, all I want is objectivity -- in all things, but especially when it come to my geek-dom of baseball. I don't think this is an objective discussion by any stretch of the imagination. I feel like last season I tried to stay away from calling the 'support Yuni' crowd unreasonable, or irrational, just out of touch with reality, or (worse, to me...) not objective. But honestly that's how I feel about it... and I sincerely doubt I'm alone. I feel like facts & evidence weren't enough to explain to *some* folks just how bad Betancourt was, is, and will likely continue to not be. None of that matters, because certain people had allied themselves with supporting Yuni only because he got so much hate.

 

I don't begrudge people feeling like a player is being unfairly singled out. What I do begrudge people is ignoring the evidence presented. This isn't a case of lots of fans lining up to rail against Betancourt, and then there needs to be 'an opposition'. This wasn't a large group of fans coming up with some preconceived agenda (imo, unlike the 'defend Yuni' camp). This was a large number of very well-informed, intelligent baseball fans examining the evidence available & then coming to a logical conclusion.

 

I do honestly feel that some, or even many people have been fair & objective about Yuni (whether they loathe him, or feel that he's wrongly dogged). However, some have just hitched their wagons up to oppose almost whatever bad is said about Betancourt, because, goshdangit, he doesn't deserve so much criticism. The criticisms of him are very much based in facts, reality, & objectivity. I think the defending or touting of him is based in delusion, I really do. You really have to invent ways to explain how Betancourt was actually not a horrible player last season.

 

And I do genuinely apologize for being so confrontational on this, but I think the BF.net crowd that sees Yuni for the incompetent MLB SS that he is he has 'played nice' in this discussion for far too long. I think this is important, as the discussion centers around whether or not fans/posters are able to be objective, & accept factual evidence as proof of something. I think that's really important to the larger discussion(s) that take place at BF.net.

 

Also, I think you've opened up a huge can of worms by bringing in the Gooden comp. The NBA/Bucks fans here will feel a LOT differently about Gooden, if I have to guess (based on reading the Bucks/NBA thread this winter in the OT forum).

[TooLiveBrew]

I couldn't dislike a post more than this, it shows a complete lack of understanding about the reality of baseball. I don't mean that as an insult even if it obviously is insulting but this entire post is so absurd that it has no grasp in reality. Betancourt is horrible defensively and if anything the stats understate how bad he is.

And I think the portion I bolded, as possibly unsettling/unpleasant/"rude" as it is, nails exactly what I was trying to ramble about in the post I just made.

[Raw Biz]

I would just like to add that I was one of those who was kind of defending Yuni before he ever played. I never really watched him play much and didn't put too much stock into defensive stats. His offensive stats indicated he had some pop for a SS, which I thought was definitely needed after Escobar. I also couldn't believe that someone could be as bad as people were saying Yuni was. I figured I would give him the benefit of the doubt and watch him with my own eyes before I passed judgment.

 

While he made some flashy plays on defense and came up with some hits at times, overall he was a pretty terrible player. Some might argue the flashy plays he made were because he has such a terrible jump/range and an average SS would have made those plays with ease. I don't necessarily think he was lazy like some do because he didn't dive for balls. I do, however, think he was very hard-headed in not changing his offensive approach.

 

I could understand how some, like me, might've defended him before ever seeing him play. I could also understand how some might want to defend him from being called the worst player ever, since that's kind of hard to judge. What I can't understand, however, is how someone can say he wasn't a bad overall player after watching him for an entire season. I don't care if he made some nice plays or had a few key hits. Overall, his lack of range on defense and poor approach on offense made him a pretty bad baseball player over the course of the season.

[MJLiverock]

I don't know that anyone has ever claimed YB was a good player. The constant bashing just got old really fast. In my mind there was no better alternative and banging the drum from spring training on to replace him with other bad players that were mentioned like Renteria, Punto(who is not an everyday SS), Izturis, etc. served no purpose other than to constantly complain about the guy. Really would the team have been any better with the alternatives that were available? I don't think so. Even now by adding a player who I think is actually worse than YB in Izturis and a player Gonzalez who is just as likely to be no better than YB really won't matter but at least we don't have YB and that is all that seemed to matter.

 

Comparing YB with the replacements that were available is like driving an '84 Yugo and thinking that if only you could replace it with that '78 Pinto things would really start looking up.

[RobDeer 45]

As many of you know, I tend to always give Brewer players the bennefit of the doubt. I'm one of those guys that can see both sides of just about any discussion. But I'm guilty of being a fan of the Brewers and therefore not seeing a guy's faults.

 

I have always given YB some backing, but really did doubt him as the season went on. After watching the spring training game against the Cubs, I saw in one inning, Alex get to two balls that I don't think I've ever seen YB get to. I said to myself, "that's what a good ss looks like." YB did some good for us, so that's cool. We are always going to have some holes because we are not the Yankees so I just accept it. But I do have to say it sure seems nice to have a SS that can go get a ball that's not hit right to him.

[reillymcshane]

How many teams lined up to add Yuni as SS this off season when he was a free agent?

 

That's right - none.

[MJLiverock]

How many teams lined up to add Yuni as SS this off season when he was a free agent?

 

That's right - none.

 

Actually he signed with KC. How many teams lined up to sign the guys like Renteria and Izturis? None and Milwaukee to a minor league deal. There just weren't any better options to be had last year.

[GormanHarvey]

How many teams lined up to add Yuni as SS this off season when he was a free agent?

 

That's right - none.

 

Actually he signed with KC. How many teams lined up to sign the guys like Renteria and Izturis? None and Milwaukee to a minor league deal. There just weren't any better options to be had last year.

 

To be fair, KC did not sign Yuni to be their SS. He was signed as a utility infielder (2nd, 3rd, SS).

[Madtown343]

I don't know that anyone has ever claimed YB was a good player. The don't think so. Even now by adding a player who I think is actually worse than YB in Izturis and a player Gonzalez who is just as likely to be no better than YB really won't matter but at least we don't have YB and that is all that seemed to matter.

 

First off why compare Izturis to YB. Izturis is on a minor deal trying to make the team as the 24-25th man. Not getting 500 ab's and playing everyday at ss.

 

Second why is gonzo likely to be no better than YB when statistically he is better overall as a player, and helps the team in infield defense where they were their weakest in 2011.

 

You base your opinions on what you feel and that's fine. Just don't be upset when people look at stats and history to refute your feelings.

[monty57]

Offensively, Gonzalez will probably be similar to Yuni, as a SS with mid-teen HR power and sub-.300 OBP. Defensively he should be a big upgrade, so overall he will be an upgrade for the team. I saw the same ST plays as RobDeer45. One of them was a grounder up the middle, which last year was an automatic single, and Gonzalez made it a routine play. While I feel our offense will be fine this year, our 2012 fate rests on our pitching staff, and Gonzalez makes the pitching staff better.

 

I would like to have a long-term option at SS, but for now at least we have a stopgap upgrade.

[MJLiverock]

I don't know that anyone has ever claimed YB was a good player. The don't think so. Even now by adding a player who I think is actually worse than YB in Izturis and a player Gonzalez who is just as likely to be no better than YB really won't matter but at least we don't have YB and that is all that seemed to matter.

 

First off why compare Izturis to YB. Izturis is on a minor deal trying to make the team as the 24-25th man. Not getting 500 ab's and playing everyday at ss.

 

Second why is gonzo likely to be no better than YB when statistically he is better overall as a player, and helps the team in infield defense where they were their weakest in 2011.

 

You base your opinions on what you feel and that's fine. Just don't be upset when people look at stats and history to refute your feelings.

 

I added Izturis in because 1. People were mentioning getting him last year instead of Yuni. 2. Izuris is mentioned as playing a role in this year's team.

 

Not to upset you with the use of stats but if Gonzo is such a defensive whiz why has he posted a negative defensive rating in 5/12 big league seasons?

 

I don't like WAR as a stat but Gozo's last 3 years are 0.6, 3.4, 1.1 compared to -2.1, 0.9 and 0.5 for Betancourt. Everyone once in awhile Gonzo puts up a year like 2010, but most year's he is a 0-1 WAR player just like YB, neither are good players. And Gonzo being 35+ isn't going to make his outlook suddenly improve. It's probably 50/50 on whether or not he will even be a positive on the defensive ratings given his age and track record.

[Thurston Fluff]

Let's face it shortstop is going to be a sore spot until we find something other than a stop gap type player. I just don't see the point if arguing over whether this version of sub-par is so much better or worse than another version of it. WE know what he is going in same as Yuni. If he gives us what we expect what's to complain about? Last season Yuni was a known quantity. If the team was much worse than we expected then I can see complaining about him. That wasn't the case last season. They knew what he was and accounted for it in other areas. For myself if Gonzalez holds his own on defense he'll be what we expected so who really cares if he was slightly better or worse offensively than what we had last season? In both instances Melvin knew what we were getting and had it accounted for. Last year the team didn't suffer from having Yuni on the team. IF the same holds true this season I'll be happy with what Gonzo has to give us.

[thebruce44]

Not to upset you with the use of stats but if Gonzo is such a defensive whiz why has he posted a negative defensive rating in 5/12 big league seasons?

 

I don't like WAR as a stat but Gozo's last 3 years are 0.6, 3.4, 1.1 compared to -2.1, 0.9 and 0.5 for Betancourt. Everyone once in awhile Gonzo puts up a year like 2010, but most year's he is a 0-1 WAR player just like YB, neither are good players. And Gonzo being 35+ isn't going to make his outlook suddenly improve. It's probably 50/50 on whether or not he will even be a positive on the defensive ratings given his age and track record.

 

Where are you getting negative defensive ratings for 5/12 years? I see 2 out of 9, which seems pretty good.

 

And I don't think I've ever seen someone skew their conclusion to their own opinion so dramatically. Gonzo's last 3 years average to 1.7 WAR. Yuni's to -0.23. And that includes Gonzalez coming off a knee injury. Given all that, how you figure they are basically the same most years is beyond me.

[Madtown343]

I don't know that anyone has ever claimed YB was a good player. The don't think so. Even now by adding a player who I think is actually worse than YB in Izturis and a player Gonzalez who is just as likely to be no better than YB really won't matter but at least we don't have YB and that is all that seemed to matter.

 

First off why compare Izturis to YB. Izturis is on a minor deal trying to make the team as the 24-25th man. Not getting 500 ab's and playing everyday at ss.

 

Second why is gonzo likely to be no better than YB when statistically he is better overall as a player, and helps the team in infield defense where they were their weakest in 2011.

 

You base your opinions on what you feel and that's fine. Just don't be upset when people look at stats and history to refute your feelings.

 

I added Izturis in because 1. People were mentioning getting him last year instead of Yuni. 2. Izuris is mentioned as playing a role in this year's team.

 

Not to upset you with the use of stats but if Gonzo is such a defensive whiz why has he posted a negative defensive rating in 5/12 big league seasons?

 

I don't like WAR as a stat but Gozo's last 3 years are 0.6, 3.4, 1.1 compared to -2.1, 0.9 and 0.5 for Betancourt. Everyone once in awhile Gonzo puts up a year like 2010, but most year's he is a 0-1 WAR player just like YB, neither are good players. And Gonzo being 35+ isn't going to make his outlook suddenly improve. It's probably 50/50 on whether or not he will even be a positive on the defensive ratings given his age and track record.

 

 

 

I am thinking you should have stuck with your feelings argument, because attempting to pick stats to prove your point actually looks worse.

 

Gonzo was near the top of the league in defensive runs saved last year, and that is the same stat that GoGo was also near the top of for CF. I put some weight into that as well as the opinions of players, and Powell who said beyond statistics he is impressive defensively.

 

As for offense, you are right my expectations are fairly low. However, his power could translate to 20ish HR at miller park, and he has some winning experience.

 

Offensively we improved as much as possible at 3B, and defensively we improved as much as possible (Barmes already signed). How can that not seem like a huge positive over YB?