Brewers Offer Arby to Prince and Krod

[umphrey]

Marcum and Greinke were both slight overpays, but I don't see how one can say we overpaid for Sabathia... Matt LaPorta has been a bust, and Michael Brantley doesn't have ideal pop for a corner OF.

These pitcher deals, front line starter for prospects, I grade them based on how good I think the pitcher is more than anything. The prospects, more often than not, turn out to be how low payroll teams fill out a couple roster spots for cheap. You can get LaPorta, Brantley, Escobars in free agency every year and they aren't even that expensive, just a little bit more so than they are now.

[TooLiveBrew]

Melvin did look into trading for Buchholz back in 2009.

 

link

[RockCoCougars]

I think after 3 plus years the Sabathia deal was a clear win. LaPorta has been a flop in Cleveland, and Brantley would be interchangeable with Gomez/Morgan at this point -best case, 5th outfielder fodder more likely. The Greinke deal is looking good as well at this point, I still think that Cain is the key player in that deal, so time will tell. The only one that's looking like it may blow up is the Marcum deal, which I won't second guess. If given the opportunity, I would undo that one, but I never saw Lawrie making the jump that he did last year coming either.

[Funketown]

Yeah, in the three trades the only guys I think we'll really miss are Cain and Lawrie. For some reason I was thinking Cain struggled last season, but he put up a .312/.380/.497 line in AAA. I could see him being a solid .275/.325/.400 type of CF with plus defense.

 

I'd take back Lawrie for Marcum in a snap, but I still don't think it was a bad deal. But man, would it look nice to have him at 3B and use the Ramirez money for something else.

[Funketown]

DFA double posts.

[berniebrewer4life]

I tried to post a bit ago and it didnt work so I am going to post a much shorter version of this.

 

1. The rumor was Prince for Cain. Not Hart. There is no way SF would have done that.

2. You make it sound like all our talent came from Jack Z but Jack Z left the pitching cupboard completely bare. He hit on 1 starter. Just 1! Gallardo is the only starter that he gave Melvin. Parra was his second best pitcher. Well Odorizzi could become second. Try to find 4 quality starters. Young starting pitching is really valuable and pitching on the free agent market is over-priced.

3. I completely disagree we overpaid for Sabathia or Greinke. I think you over-value our prospects quite a bit. I think the jury was out on Escobar - all glove no hit SS. Not many scouts were as high on LaPorta as this board (me being one of those people). Brantley was an ok prospect not great. Cain was never considered a top prospect. I think we over paid more for Marcum than Greinke.

4. I dont like every move Melvin has made. I didnt like trading Cole Gillespie. I didnt like the Carlos Lee trade centered around Codero and Mench. I didnt like the Hardy trade. I wanted Kevin Slowey, guess I was wrong too. But you make it seem like he lucked into a talented team. With a limited payroll and no pitching talent in the minors I think he has done well

Edit - Sorry if this debate shouldnt be in this forum.

IIRC, Jack didn't want Yo, but Melvin overruled him on it. So really, you can't even give him credit for Gallardo.

 

We completely stole Sabathia and Grienke. Unless Odorizzi turns it around, we will have lost nothing of real worth. I'm not saying Melvin is perfect, but he's a heck of a lot better than many here give him credit for.

[dlk9s]

Melvin is EASILY one of the better GM's in the league. Nobody hits on every deal. Have you all seen some of the crap organizations out there?

[Team Canada]

IIRC, Jack didn't want Yo, but Melvin overruled him on it. So really, you can't even give him credit for Gallardo.

 

We completely stole Sabathia and Grienke. Unless Odorizzi turns it around, we will have lost nothing of real worth. I'm not saying Melvin is perfect, but he's a heck of a lot better than many here give him credit for.

I thought it was the other way around - Melvin didn't want Gallardo.

[endaround]

Team Canada]

berniebrewer4life wrote:

IIRC, Jack didn't want Yo, but Melvin overruled him on it. So really, you can't even give him credit for Gallardo.

 

We completely stole Sabathia and Grienke. Unless Odorizzi turns it around, we will have lost nothing of real worth. I'm not saying Melvin is perfect, but he's a heck of a lot better than many here give him credit for.

I thought it was the other way around - Melvin didn't want Gallardo.

Nope, Jack Z didn't.

[monty57]

Here's something to ponder:

 

If "team control" has become so valueable that teams would not trade a good, young starting pitching prospect for Prince Fielder (a guy who is consistantly in the MVP race and is probably going to make over $20MM next year), then isn't team control the "overvalued coomodity" in baseball right now? If so, is Melvin correct in moving some of his overvalued commodities for what is undervalued, which apparently is star players with 1-2 years left on their contract?

 

I think Melvin tried prying young SP for Hart, and eventually signed him to a pretty team-friendly deal when there wasn't a good market. Then he tried prying young SP for Fielder, and again found that there wasn't a good market. At that point he decided that since prospects were overvalued, he could build a World Series caliber team by trading some prospects for vets.

[joepepsi]

Without Marcum the Brewers don't win the division; they don't win 96 games. Lawrie looks like a great hitter, but the trade was worth it. Marcum's poor finish to 2011 seems to have convinced most on this board that he's nothing more than another Jeff Suppan.

[JohnBriggs12]

Without Marcum the Brewers don't win the division; they don't win 96 games. Lawrie looks like a great hitter, but the trade was worth it. Marcum's poor finish to 2011 seems to have convinced most on this board that he's nothing more than another Jeff Suppan.

 

The numbers really don't support that. True, Marcum pitched very well at times but late collapse aside, the fact is the team was under .500 (16-17) in his starts. He was the only starter with whom that was true. I'll grant that his run support was somewhat below average so you can make a solid case that getting 16 wins with that run support was doing well. But I don't think you can assume that had they signed a lower level FA (or hung on to Capuano) for about what they paid Marcum that it's reasonable to have expected the team would have won a third (11 of 33) of those starts, which still would have been enough to win the division.

 

I honestly think if the Greinke deal had happened first, that Melvin would have passed on dealing Lawrie for Marcum. He had no way of knowing he'd get a shot at Greinke, and therefore was willing to pay a high price for Marcum.

[Bnowell4evr]

Without Marcum the Brewers don't win the division; they don't win 96 games. Lawrie looks like a great hitter, but the trade was worth it. Marcum's poor finish to 2011 seems to have convinced most on this board that he's nothing more than another Jeff Suppan.

 

The numbers really don't support that. True, Marcum pitched very well at times but late collapse aside, the fact is the team was under .500 (16-17) in his starts. He was the only starter with whom that was true. I'll grant that his run support was somewhat below average so you can make a solid case that getting 16 wins with that run support was doing well. But I don't think you can assume that had they signed a lower level FA (or hung on to Capuano) for about what they paid Marcum that it's reasonable to have expected the team would have won a third (11 of 33) of those starts, which still would have been enough to win the division.

 

I honestly think if the Greinke deal had happened first, that Melvin would have passed on dealing Lawrie for Marcum. He had no way of knowing he'd get a shot at Greinke, and therefore was willing to pay a high price for Marcum.

So its Shaun Marcums fault when the bullpen blows his leads or his offense doesn't provide him any runs? I can count 9 games that could have gone the other way with better relief pitching and a clutch hit or two.

April 23, 2011 vs Astros

Marcum leaves with the lead after 6

Kinztler and Green give up 5 ER in 1 2/3 innings

May 5, 2011 vs Braves

Marcum leaves after 7 with a tie

Kameron Blow gives up a HR

June 1, 2011 vs Reds

Marcum leaves with the lead after 7

Kameron Blow gives up a HR and the lead

June 7, 2011 vs Mets

Marcum leaves after 6 with the lead

Marco Estrada gives up 2 runs and the Brewers lose

July 4, 2011 vs Diamondbacks

Marcum leaves with the lead after 6

Hawkins, Loe and Axford then give up 4 runs in 2 2/3

July 9, 2011 vs Reds

Marcum leaves with the game tied after 6

Estrada gives up 5 runs in 1 inning and the Brewers lose

August 2, 2011 vs Cardinals

Marcum leaves with the lead after 6

Saito and Estrada blow and then lose the game

August 24, 2011 vs Pirates

Brewers get shutout in Marcums start.

Hard to win when your team doesn't score any runs

August 30, 2011 vs Cardinals

Brewers score 1 run

Marcum leaves after 7 giving up 2 unearned runs

I can't believe someone still thinks wins and loses are a legitimate way to determine a pitchers worth. You can't be serious with half the drivel you post.

[1992casey]

You can't be serious with half the drivel you post.

 

Please take care to address the message rather than attacking the messenger. Condescension doesn't make one's point any stronger.

[Kelbysdaddy]

i agree with most people on here that the marcum-lawrie swap will be a bummer in the long run, even though i still think it was not all that bad. however if he didnt go to toronto, he would have gone to kansas city.

[markedman5]

All he said was its possible the brewers would have still won the division with Capuano(or another decent replacment).

 

Nobody said it was Marcum's fault that he didn't get run support or for the pen blowing leads.

[joepepsi]

i agree with most people on here that the marcum-lawrie swap will be a bummer in the long run, even though i still think it was not all that bad. however if he didnt go to toronto, he would have gone to kansas city.

Good point. In that scenario the Brewers may have kept Cain and/or Esobar + one of the pitchers.

We don't really know what kind of player Lawrie becomes, though it's looking like he will be All Star quality in his best years. He put up nearly Braun type numbers in his brief stint with Toronto. So, my question, who is more valuable, a 190+, 30+GS, 3.60'sh starting pitcher, or a Braun type hitter?

Forgetting for a minute ARam's signing, it's worth noting the emergence of Green will soften the loss of Lawrie. If Green comes close in the majors to last year's AAA numbers, they won't miss Lawrie.

 

[TheCrew07]

Unless you guys provide some sort of link to backup the Melvin selection of Gallardo I don't buy it at all.

 

Here's a link to Colby's post on this subjectwhich I've linked to a couple of times a year, every year since 2008. Quoted below so I don't have to keep searching for it every time I need to reference it.

 

 

If i remember correctly what i've read, i thought Melvin as said

that he stays informed of who Zduriencik is targeting with high picks,

but that he

pretty much leaves the choice to Jack on who to draft, outside of maybe

Boras clients that will demand over slot money. Is that how you know

things work?

 

You've got it right danzig. Melvin leaves the pick up to Jack Z., but

Melvin definitely is kept in the loop with the entire process, and

similar to scouts

bringing in crosscheckers who bring in the scouting director, the

scouting director will often bring in the general manager to give them

an idea of which

players the team is considering drafting with their early pick(s).

 

I'm unaware of any situation where Melvin has dictated what players the

team should take, but I don't doubt that he has given some overall

direction

that the scouting dep't. should take. I think it was around 2005 when

the organization started to take more college players early, and last

year they came

out and expressed why they took so many college guys early, not only to

get them to the big-leagues more quickly, but also to give the

organization more

bargaining chips to work with when it comes to trades.

 

Most of the player-by-player arguments at certain slots are debated

among the crosscheckers and scouts. I do know there was a big debate in

the war room

between Ryan Sweeney and Tony Gwynn Jr. in 2003, and between Yovani

Gallardo and Erik Cordier in 2004, but again, that wasn't because of any

involvement of

Doug Melvin as far as I know.

[TheCrew]

Starting Pitching > Hitting

 

I don't get the hate for Marcum on here - did people forget how good he was to start the season?

 

200+ innings at a 3.5 ERA.............. you would think that would get a LOT more love around here after enduring the likes of Suppan. That first month and a half of the season would have been a lot tougher without him......... I don't buy it for a second that a "replacement pitcher" would have still allowed the Brewers to win the division.

[TheCrew]

Unless you guys provide some sort of link to backup the Melvin selection of Gallardo I don't buy it at all.

This should help ya: http://books.google.com/b...i%20gallardo&f=false

 

To summarize: Melvin pretty much gives all credit to Jack Z for the young guys and it directly points to "jack z and his staff" for selecting Yovani.

[jjfanec]

Unless you guys provide some sort of link to backup the Melvin selection of Gallardo I don't buy it at all.

 

Here's a link to Colby's post on this subjectwhich I've linked to a couple of times a year, every year since 2008. Quoted below so I don't have to keep searching for it every time I need to reference it.

It doesnt matter to me whether Melvin had any say in Yo or not. You still did nothing to explain why you credit Jack Z for everything but dont acknowledge his almost complete lack of success drafting pitching left Melvin's hands tied.

[TheCrew07]

It doesnt matter to me whether Melvin had any say in Yo or not. You still did nothing to explain why you credit Jack Z for everything but dont acknowledge his almost complete lack of success drafting pitching left Melvin's hands tied.

 

Well that's garbage as I've taken Z to task plenty of times for the lack of pitching, just because I didn't do it in this particular thread doesn't mean I haven't acknowledged the situation. That being said, Melvin as the GM is ultimately repsonsible for filling those holes.

 

I've explained my opinions on Melvin literally dozens of times in various posts across the different forums, and I basically laid out a summation again in this thread.

 

For the record:

 

Melvin has done some good things. He made a dire medical situation better, he left Jack and most of the entire scouting staff alone. With one trade he quickly turned a putrid roster into a somewhat competitive team, the MLB teams fortunes steadily improved until 2006.

 

Melvin did not build this team, the scouting staff that was raided in 3 different moves did, those scouts and Z are now gone. Most of the nuggets that Melvin found he didn't actually "find", he already had a relationship with those players from Texas. He just went with talent that he already knew which was better than the poor talent that we had. A solid plan to be sure, but obvious given the situation at the time.

 

Melvin used the farm system to continually buy rental players just about every year since the Linebrink trade. His 3 signature deals (Sabathia, Greinke, and Marcum) are all a result of assets left to him by the scouting dept.There aren't many tradeable assets left in the farm system anymore so I'm curious what the future holds. Instead of using expendable pieces to acquire assets with longevity, he chose to acquire a plethora of players with less than 3 years of service remaining to the MLB team at varying costs. This has effectively shortened the window as it's not enough to just plug rotation spots, with finite resources we need to maximize our return. This is why we had the same holes year after year, as acquiring Sabathia didn't plug a hole and stop the bleeding, it was simply a bandaid move. Now we have quite a few contracts expiring all the same year, a maxed out payroll, and system full of starters that profile like 3s with 2 upside best case. I have no problem with an entire rotation full of 2s, but at the same time I'm not going to project best case scenarios for all of those young prospect pitchers either.

 

As good as Z and his staff were at drafting hitters, they were that bad at drafting pitching. Z doesn't get a pass for that, but he certainly provided enough hitting prospects that Melvin could have addressed the organizational wide need for impact pitching long before trading for Sabathia. The lack of talent was so obvious to even someone like me that in late 2007 I switched my entire focus towards acquiring young cost controlled pitching. Instead of addressing that need, over the years he's tried to plug holes in the rotation with aging averagish pitchers who largely failed miserably (though the Wolf contract is looking pretty solid even though we're paying him all that money to be our 4th starter). I knew from his trade history that he wasn't likely to make the kind of risky moves I was advocating, but he completely lost me when he continually pointed to Rogers and Jones getting hurt as the reason why the organization has struggled to develope pitching. Best case scenario if you have 4 legit impact prospect pitchers you hope that 2 will live up to hype and contribute to the MLB team.

 

Furthermore he had known for years that those guys were injured, suddenly in 2009 and 2010 it's a major problem and reason the MLB pitching was so bad? No, it was simply an excuse for a lack of action. When you only have 3-5 impact pitchers in the entire organization and 3 of them get hurt and a 4th has continual elbow/emotional problems (Braddock), maybe we should look outside the organization for some young impact pitchers via trade? Gallardo made it as a starter and has been as good as advertised, Parra turned out to be a head case and got injured, Braddock didn't make it as a starter and continues to have issues, Jones never made it all because of injury, and it's not looking good for Rogers to make it as a starter either. There was a time when we weren't sure if Braddock, Parra, Rogers, or Jones would pitch for the Brewers again, the situation has been dire for a long time. I'm actually pretty happy that Parra and Braddock contributed to the big club at all.

 

Finally Melvin hasn't adapted his base philosophies at all, he hasn't proven to be flexible or malleable in any way. I thought there was hope early on, I used to be a big fan, he hired a statistician early on and quickly turned around the team's fortunes. However he's never looking to exploit the market, when we needed pitching the market was focused on OBP and SLG only teams like Tampa exploited that situation, now that the pendulum has swung back towards pitching and defense he's still primarily focused on SLG. Once the team got competitive he stopped building and started patching, playing whack-a-mole with holes on the MLB roster from year to year. He's also been slow to adopt incredibly successful measures like offering contracts to players who are still making league minimum to buy out FA years and buy wins at a reduced rate. Instead he waits until arbitration or FA and spends the greatest possible amount to acquire those wins. I was hopeful when he signed Braun and Gallardo to team friendly deals that he was turning a corner but then he offered McGehee a long-term contract and extended Braun again into his late 30s. People have gotten tired of me pointing to Tampa, but Freidman was truly an innovator, I would have loved for Yo to be signed to the exact contract that Shields was signed to. With that kind of contract you always have the flexibility to move on if the player starts to decline or you have better talent available. I would love to be able to cycle pitching the way they have dumping Kazmir, Garza, and Jackson at the perfect time.

 

It's great that our payroll is around $100 million, I would have never thought I would see that for the Brewers in my lifetime, but what exactly are we buying with all that money? It's simply irresponsible to have a significant portion of your payroll tied into your relievers and continually sign aging players to 8 digit/year contracts. I'm all for trading prospects and spending money, but I've never been a fan of FA or rental player trades, especially as the talent well in the minor leagues has started to run dry. I've been looking for ways to get younger and more dynamic athletically, get impact talent back into the system, while becoming value conscience at the same time. Under Melvin all we've done is get older and more expensive every year. It's not about spending money, it's not about maxing out the payroll, it's about the value you get on the dollar, and making the playoffs doesn't wipe away all of the other negatives. I firmly believe the Brewers need a GM that can get out in front of market trends instead of following them and be flexible enough to adapt his strategy. That was genius in what Beane did, he let go of convention and looked for a different way... Beane wasn't right about everything, but he dared to go against the flow. That's what Freidman did in Tampa as well. Every part of the game of baseball is derived from the pitching, if you control young, talented, effective pitching, you control your games and you control cost, maximizing $/win. Freidman exploited the market and bought pitching cheap and then when the market swung back he was in position to sell it at a premium price. He didn't buy CY pitchers, they did their homework and bought prospects at incredibly reasonable rates, it can be done.

 

So to summarize, Z and his scouts provided the positional talent foundation of the 2005-2011 Milwaukee Brewers and provided enough talent that Melvin was able to make numerous trades to improve MLB team, including trades for 2 CY winners. The one glaring weakness for Z's staff and the scouting dept in general has been impact pitching, the organization has suffered from a serious drought impact pitching for a very long time. On the other hand Melvin has failed on a consistent basis to plug holes in a cost effective manner, he hasn't signed our home grown young players at the appropriate time preferring to go year to year, he's failed to acquire any young impact player via trade, he hasn't addressed any organizational holes for the long-term via trade, he continually buys talent at the wrong time (when he should be looking to sell similar talent), and finally he's failed to replenish the talent well at all. Basically he operates like he's a large market GM even though he's in the league's smallest market, and we enable him because people from WI tend to be incredibly loyal to our teams.

 

The Brewers should have a payroll like Oakland but the fan support is so great the Brewers can afford to spend like a mid market. It's not just the Brewers obviously.... Packers are one of the most popular teams in the NFL, the Badgers enjoy great fan support, Marquette enjoys good support... it's what we do, we're loyal to our teams, maybe to a fault. The only team that doesn't enjoy that kind of support is the Bucks, but if they built a good young core and started to compete consistently I bet the support for them would come back as well. I've said it numerous times but I'll say it again, I'll take TT's organizational building philosophy over Melvin's whack-a-mole philosophy every single time. It's not about what you spend, it's about how spend it... We can win with young talent, plenty of young teams have made it to a WS, sooner or later one of those young teams is going to break through and win one. With Melvin at the helm I fear we'll always teeter on the edge of competiveness until the system is completely barren (we're pretty close now) and we have to start over from scratch, he's only been looking at the organization from one angle for too long.

[PrinceFielderx1]

I'm very hesitant to say we have a good GM or a bad GM, because the fact is many GM's make questionable moves. Some of the moves pan out and some don't. That's just baseball. There are moves that I have seen Doug Melvin do or try to do that I question, like trying to sign McGehee to an extension last March. There are also moves that I thought were great moves like the Sabathia and Greinke trades. Even to an extent the Marcum trade, even though in the long run I'd bet the Brewers regret it. Lawrie is just that good.

 

One has to admit though that Doug Melvin is doing a good enough job that he is putting a team together over the last few years that has drawn around 3 million fans each season. The Brewers already sold 1 million tickets for this coming season. It's the GM's job to field a competitive team to put butts in the seats year in and year out, and for the last 4 or so seasons Melvin has succeeded in doing so.

[strawbossisevil]

Melvin isn't as good as Freidman. Neither are the other 28 GMs in baseball. Melvin is, however, a top 10 GM. Very few prospect pitchers are traded, it simply doesn't happen often. Almost every GM knows that cost effective pitching is one of the most valuable things that a team can have, so that is why all this call for the Brewers to trade for "high ceiling prospect pitchers" is absolutely bogus. You don't see trades like that often, you simply don't, especially for unproven offensive prospects. No one was ever going to trade a Clay Bucholtz caliber pitching prospect for a Matt Laporta or Alcides Escobar or Lorenzo Cain, even if you bundled some of them together.

 

The market has recently undervalued stud pitchers entering their last season(s), and Melvin has taken advantage by trading prospects that were good (but not great...with the exception of Lawrie) in order to get great production. And look what has happened, it has gotten our team to the playoffs twice in the past few years. You discount the playoffs. I don't. The whole purpose of the Farm System is to build the MLB team so that it can make the playoffs. And, once again, Melvin has the team looking like a playoff contender going into 2012. And once again the big league club should have an attendance of 3 million +, which is due in large part to the moves Melvin has made.

 

As far as Melvin not extending his players...he did so with Braun, Weeks, Gallardo, and Hart. He tried to do the same with Fielder, but if the player doesn't want a deal, you can't force a deal on him. Weeks extension had to wait due to health issues, but the extension was team friendly, as was Hart's and Gallardo's and Braun's. He's done a great job locking up much of the core of our team for the long term.

 

Has every move that Melvin made paid off? No. But then again he is certainly above average compared to the majority of GMs in baseball. I'm content with above average...you apparently aren't content unless he is Freidman (aka the top GM in baseball). Good luck with that. You are setting yourself up for disappointment. It's like being disappointed that we had Prince Fielder as our 1 baseman, because the Cardinals had Albert Pujols. Yes, Pujols is better. But in comparison to the rest of the league...most envied us.

[monty57]

Basically he operates like he's a large market GM even though he's in the league's smallest market, and we enable him because people from WI tend to be incredibly loyal to our teams.

 

It's too easy to say that Wisconsin has great fans, while other teams suffer due to bad fans. Since a lot of baseball players come out of Florida and California, while all Wisonsin produces are football players, I can't buy that people of Florida and California won't go to baseball games.

 

Rather, I think the GM has to put a lot of thought into marketing/perception as well as into team building, and therefore he should be given a lot of credit for attendance. The fans' impressions of the team have a lot to do with moves made and how they are spun. Since the Selig era ended, Brewer fans have constantly been bombarded with the message that we have an owner and management who will do everything it takes to win, and the fans have bought into it. First they spun our initial rebuild centering on the Sexson trade as a necessary move towards future greatness. Then we heard loads and loads of (for lack of a better word) propaganda about how the team would be great as soon as Fielder, Weeks, Hardy, etc made it to the big leagues. Then we heard how taking on salary in the Lee trade could be the move which put us over the top. We as fans didn't need a World Series season to show up, becuase the Brewers did a great job of marketing everything in a positive light. We were salivating over having a .500 season for God's sake. By the time we started winning, we were already selling out a good share of our games.

 

Meanwhile, there is Tampa and Oakland. The Buccaneers and Raiders both have solid fan bases, so why doesn't anyone show up to watch the Rays & A's? Both teams have/had better on-field success than the Brewers, so while winning is important, it can't be the sole reason why people show up or don't show up to games. Just speculation, but could it be that while Friedman's staff spends a lot of time finding good, young players, the message the public hears is "all the people around here are Yankee/Red Sox fans" and "our stadium stinks." In Oakland, the A's media spin seems to center around what a hero Beane is, rather than promoting the team in general. A's management likes to play the martyr, with a lot of "we can't draw because those mean Giants take all the fans," and "we've got a $40MM payroll, so we can't compete." I can understand how fans might not flock to the stadium when all you hear is negativity. Any success could be seen as transitory and continually trading away popular players for prospects and fielding a team of players fans haven't heard of could foster that belief, especially in baseball, where most people haven't heard of any players until they reach the majors.

 

The Brewers' brand was horrible a decade or so ago. Wisconsinites hated losing, hated Selig, hated the fact that they were paying for a huge new stadium and were embarassed to be associated with the team. Melvin and Attanasio have turned a rotten brand into a brand that people across the country are envious of. Building a successful brand is not the same as putting togehter a winning team. I don't know if Freidman understands that, and I think Beane likes to build himself as the brand, which elevates himself, but doesn't bring fans to the game. The Brewers got fans coming through the gates long before they started winning, and now the fanbase is getting rabid. I have some trepidation as to what moves will need to be made over the next couple of seasons, as we could lose 3/5 of our pitching staff after this year, and are looking at a payroll cruch in a few years. However, I trust that the current management understands finances and marketing. Maybe the future revenue stream will allow for a bigger payroll then any of us expect. Or, maybe we will need to sell off some of our players. If marketed correctly, fans will still show up.