Brewers Offer Arby to Prince and Krod

[paul253]

If so, I'd hardly expect them to get a haul for him, anyone could have signed him without compensation

 

No they couldn't have, he was never a free agent. They could have signed him without compensation if he had declined arbitration.

This is false.

 

This is also why they should change that stupid "save" rule and make it apply to any relief situation. If KRod comes in in the 8th inning with the bases loaded, nobody out and a 3 run lead and strikes out 3 in a row he gets a "hold". But holds are also dumb and nobody pays attention to them. Then in the 9th inning, Axford comes in, walks a guy, gives a double, throws a wild pitch (1 run) strikes out a guy, gives up a single (two runs) gives up another single, then gets the final guy to hit into a double play ending the game, he gets a "save" even though he darn near blew a three run lead in one inning. Let's face it, if two pitchers have the exact same numbers but one of them has 40 saves and the other is an 8th inning pitcher, the guy with 40 saves is going to get twice as much. Stupid statistic.

[MNBrew]

I'm working under the understanding that the club could basically do a sign and trade deal with K-Rod at any point from now to the arby hearings. Is that assumption correct? If so, I'd hardly expect them to get a haul for him, anyone could have signed him without compensation. My guess is that he was looking for way too much cash considering the market.

You can't do sign-and-trades in baseball. But this wouldn't be a sign-and-trade because he accepted arby, meaning he's considered signed and only the amount is to be determined.

[1992casey]

Can we trade him before his arbitration hearing? Technically he is not under contract. If we can't trade him until February it may affect the offseason moves.

 

According to the rules, being offered and accepting arbitration is the same as agreeing to a contract. The only thing that's missing is the amount of compensation. As someone mentioned above, I don't see any reason that he couldn't be traded now. The arbitration responsibility would be passed on to the next team.

 

One of the articles pointed out that by the time the team paid a new setup man and bonuses to two draft picks, it'd already be looking at $8 million. It may be that the monetary issue isn't as big as it seems.

 

The fact that K-Rod is a really good player also needs to be considered. Overpaying for a superb player isn't the same as paying an eight digit salary for someone who's a liability.

[RobertR]

I'm willing to accept in a generic sense that the guy that pitches the 9th is likely to have more leverage/affect on WPA than the guy who pitches the 8th. And, moreso, that it's often hard to tell when the biggest leverage situation is going to come in a game.

 

That said, it's also true that bullpens really need to be regarded as a unit. Having a lights out closer doesn't do you much good if you blow the lead in the 7th or 8th. Having lockdown pitchers for 2 innings is certainly worth going cheap on backup utilityman, for instance. If KRod is awarded $9 to $10 million in arbitration, arguably he's only getting overpaid by $3 or $4 million given the market for setup man. Certainly, I expect KRod to pitch significantly more innings with a lower risk of injury than Saito. Frankly, that type of overpayment is not a big deal in the grand scheme of the Brewers as KRod certainly helps you win games.

 

Also, there's nothing stopping the Brewers from signing Aramis Ramirez to a multi-year deal and structuring his deal in such a way that it preserves his present value of the contract while giving them some flexibility this year. After all, there's reasonable expectations that Peralta will take up a spot in the rotation by 2013, which should give the Brewers some salary flexibilty with Wolf off the books.

 

Robert

[trwi7]

paul253 wrote:

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Can we trade him before his arbitration hearing? Technically he is not under contract. If we can't trade him until February it may affect the offseason moves.

Yes you can trade him before that. And he technically is under contract. They say under contract at a salary to be determined later.

[RockCoCougars]

I'm working under the understanding that the club could basically do a sign and trade deal with K-Rod at any point from now to the arby hearings. Is that assumption correct? If so, I'd hardly expect them to get a haul for him, anyone could have signed him without compensation. My guess is that he was looking for way too much cash considering the market.

You can't do sign-and-trades in baseball. But this wouldn't be a sign-and-trade because he accepted arby, meaning he's considered signed and only the amount is to be determined.

Right, but couldn't he agree to a deal with the Brewers based on some off the record negotiations with another team? The Brewers could then sign him to that deal and trade him to said team. Let's say the Red Sox are willing to let him close on a one year $10 million dollar deal. He agrees to this contract avoiding the hearing, and then the Brewers trade him. Obviously, I wouldn't expect much back in return, and they'd have to be careful not to get screwed over a la the Yankees Cameron fiasco a few years ago.

[StearnsFTW]

K-Rod is a great reliever. Just because he isn't the closer doesn't mean he's worth less money. His job is the same - get three outs without giving up the lead. His monetary value should be independent of the inning in which he's used. K-Rod is worth the money he'll get.

 

 

 

I wouldn't consider signing any reliever to that contract. It's a horrible deal. They took a risk and it backfired. Now they need to fix it.

[TheCrew]

Wonder if the Red Sox would be interested and if they are still interested in moving Youkilis

[sheetskout]

Wonder if the Red Sox would be interested and if they are still interested in moving Youkilis

If I were the Melvin I would be looking hard at the Red Sox. I think K-Rod may be able to pluck Jose Iglesias and a pitcher. Iglesias' stock has fallen, but he'd be a defensive option later on at a position where we don't have much after this year. Don't kid yourself people. I wouldn't expect Rodriguez to fetch a top-10-prospect type. We need to be realistic.

[JohnBriggs12]

$12MM for an 8th inning reliever is a horrible allocation of resources. Trade him ASAP.

Not when your closer is making less than a million, there's no one out there that's better so you'd need to sign two relievers to make up the difference, and the bullpen as a whole isn't all that expensive.

 

Look at segments of the team in regard to allocation of resources rather than one specific player or role. Individually, if you allocate so much to a guy that he's not tradeable, that's not a good think. But K-Rod is still tradeable now and he'll be tradeable in-season.

 

 

[StearnsFTW]

$12MM for an 8th inning reliever is a horrible allocation of resources. Trade him ASAP.

Not when your closer is making less than a million, there's no one out there that's better so you'd need to sign two relievers to make up the difference, and the bullpen as a whole isn't all that expensive.

 

Look at segments of the team in regard to allocation of resources rather than one specific player or role. Individually, if you allocate so much to a guy that he's not tradeable, that's not a good think. But K-Rod is still tradeable now and he'll be tradeable in-season.

 

 

 

Nonsense. K-Rod's contract sucks for us.

 

Not sure why a lot of people are in denial about that.

[Flood Pants]

Nonsense. K-Rod's contract sucks for us.

 

Not sure why a lot of people are in denial about that.

Simple. Because the dude can pitch.

[Invader3K]

Yeah, he's K-Rod, not Eric Gagne.

[mothershipconnection]

Don't kid yourself people. I wouldn't expect Rodriguez to fetch a top-10-prospect type.

 

Exactly: you're gonna swap salary dumps at best. Of course, that can still be a great thing if you're moving an overpaid elite reliever and can get an overpaid player at a position of greater impact.

[1992casey]

You can't do sign-and-trades in baseball. But this wouldn't be a sign-and-trade because he accepted arby, meaning he's considered signed and only the amount is to be determined.

Right, but couldn't he agree to a deal with the Brewers based on some off the record negotiations with another team? The Brewers could then sign him to that deal and trade him to said team.

If it's done "off the record," the other team would be tampering. The "on the record" way to do this would be to ask the commissioner's office to allow a window for a potential trading partner to negotiate with K-Rod. We see this occasionally with trade deadline deals.

[StearnsFTW]

Nonsense. K-Rod's contract sucks for us.

 

Not sure why a lot of people are in denial about that.

Simple. Because the dude can pitch.

Of course he can pitch. I would never deny that. Can you (or anyone else) say with a straight face that you're happy we have him at that price?

 

I can't imagine it.

[jeffy]

Can you (or anyone else) say with a straight face that you're happy we have him at that price?

 

I can't imagine it.

 

Why should I care what the Brewers pay him? I'll be glad that they have a reliable reliever, what his paycheck is does not really concern me.

 

Besides, we don't yet know the price and if the net extra cost to the Brewers is in the range of, say $3 million as seems to be what it might amount to, so what? Do you really think that is going to have much or any short term or long term impact on what the Brewer's do? Do you think Mark A is going to say, "Don't sign player X because that would put the payroll at $97 million and I refuse to go over $94 million."?

[burnzy24]

Can you (or anyone else) say with a straight face that you're happy we have him at that price?

Absolutely. It would be different if Axford was making $10 million a year but we have him at league minimum. We probably have the best 8th Inning RP in baseball right now and basically have two elite closers pitching back to back in the 8th and 9th. K-Rod is also back-up in case Axford goes Turnbow on us (knock on wood). If K-Rod was closing and Axford pitched the 8th, K-Rod for roughly $10 million for only 1 year is not a bad price at all. He isn't locked up long term and still has some trading value in case we decide to move him.

[1992casey]

Why should I care what the Brewers pay him? I'll be glad that they have a reliable reliever, what his paycheck is does not really concern me.

 

If a contract keeps the team from adding other players, we should care. Available money isn't infinite. We've seen some good points ranging from concern about the overpayment amount itself to the idea that no reliever — closer or otherwise — is worth that much money.

 

Having said that, I don't think the monetary impact is going to be that great, but the freed up cash plus the draft picks might have been nice. And as I said above, we're "stuck" with a superb player. This isn't the same as eating millions for a guy who's playing for another team or not playing at all.

[Baldkin]

K Rods 12M could be Saito, Hawkins, Loe and Hairston. I'd rather have those 4 guys than K Rod.

 

Paying a guy 15% of your budget to pitch 4% of your innings is just bad business. Especially since our manager will use him in the 8th inning and only the 8th inning all season.

[TheCrew07]

K Rods 12M could be Saito, Hawkins, Loe and Hairston. I'd rather have those 4 guys than K Rod.

 

Paying a guy 15% of your budget to pitch 4% of your innings is just bad business. Especially since our manager will use him in the 8th inning and only the 8th inning all season.

I really like how Baldkin put this. I used to be one of those guys that said and posted "it's only a 1 year deal", I did that when all of us knew that we vastly overpaid for Gagne. I've moved well beyond that phase now though, as my ultimate concern is value on the dollar, there is no justification for having your 8th inning guy making that much money.

 

I guess if you're the Yankees and your closer, starting pitchers, and many of your position players are making more than that it could make sense to pay your 8th inning guy a 7 digit salary. However to start combining slots saying the 8-9th will "only" cost us X number of dollars is irrelevant, no matter how you slice even in a best case justification Melvin would still be paying for 2 innings per game what he pays to starting pitchers for 6+ innings per game. It's horrible value on the dollar, regardless of how good Axford and K-Rod are as pitchers. The pitchers in your bullpen should never be among the highest paid players on your team, even the Mets figured that out which is why we got K-Rod for so little prospect wise.

[StearnsFTW]

K Rods 12M could be Saito, Hawkins, Loe and Hairston. I'd rather have those 4 guys than K Rod.

 

Paying a guy 15% of your budget to pitch 4% of your innings is just bad business. Especially since our manager will use him in the 8th inning and only the 8th inning all season.

I don't know how to say it any better.

 

Pretty much what I was getting at.

 

If he was the closer, it'd be different. And what Axford makes is irrelevant to this discussion.

[burnzy24]

K Rods 12M could be Saito, Hawkins, Loe and Hairston. I'd rather have those 4 guys than K Rod.

In a perfect world yes. However, Hairston was long gone before we had any idea about K-Rod and Doug offered him a contract but got outbid because he didn't want to give a second year, which K-Rod's acceptance of arbitration had no bearing on Hairston's leaving so Hairston really shouldn't be included in this discussion. Hawkins' leaving was affected by K-Rod, but I'd rather have K-Rod than Hawkins if I had to chose between the two. Loe should be non-tendered IMO and the money saved by him could be used to sign Saito instead.

 

So essentially you would rather have Hawkins Loe and Siato over K-Rod. I would rather have K-Rod and Saito and let Melvin fill in the rest.

[ilikewisco]

I don't understand how so many people complain about the role of a closer. Then when someone tries to say K-rod's ability makes the money somewhat worth it, they come back and say he's not even closing. Who cares, salary should only be determined by the talent of the player, not what inning he pitches in. Its an overpay, but not the end of the world. We got him on a one year deal with no option buy out, its really not that bad of a contract when you look at other elite bull pen arms. Most likely he'll be gone by ST and this won't even matter anyway. The Brewers may get something of value back, which is better than not offering arby at all.

 

I agree, the two draft picks and avoiding this whole mess would have been better, but he accepted. And now either we'll have two shut down guys at the end of the game, or we'll rid ourselves of the contract and move on. It's not that big of a deal. At first I was pretty upset too, but reading all the alternatives, its not so bad.

[burnzy24]

If he was the closer, it'd be different. And what Axford makes is irrelevant to this discussion.

So let me get this straight, if he pitched the 9th and Axford the 8th, you would be ok with this? How does that make any sense? K-Rod is A closer, not THE closer. We basically have closer 1a and 1b and that is not a bad thing at all and K-Rod will close when Axford needs a rest. I would want someone in the bullpen for next year who is capable of filling in for Ax should anything happen. Who on the team would fit that role without K-Rod?

 

What Axford makes is extremely relevant to the discussion. If we were paying Ax over $5 million a year then having K-Rod on the team doesn't make any sense. But since we are paying Ax and several other members of our bullpen next to nothing K-Rod at $10-12 million won't hurt us as much.