College Basketball 2011-2012

[Menotti80]

Yeah great win for MU, but they need to stop getting off to such slow starts. They should get off to an 8-2 start in conference before their schedule really gets tough.

[brwrsfan]

I don't understand how MU can fall behind and come out completely flat game after game. They keep winning, but at some point that's going to just not happen, especially against good teams. If they can play the same way in the first half that they do in the second half...watch out.

 

It's really too bad they blew that Georgetown game earlier in the year, they had that one in the bag and would be tied at the top with Syracuse.

[Menotti80]

Only 43 total first half points for Marquette and WU COMBINED. Pathetic

[valpocrewsader]

So weird that the camera is on the same side of the court as the benches at PSU. Always like that?

[brwrsfan]

Not only was it on the opposite side of where most colleges have it, it was also about a million feet off the ground it seemed. The angle was really high and really far out compared to telecasts from almost every other venue.

 

They both played poorly but got the win, and that's really all that matters I guess. Hope MU can stop with the slow starts and hope UW was simply looking ahead to OSU. They play like this on Saturday and they're likely to lose by 30.

[fondybrewfan]

I still don't understand why UW makes no effort at all to drive the lane. They are so content to pass the ball along the perimeter for 30 seconds it is maddening. Every once in a while they will give Berggren a touch down low but not nearly enough.

 

UW has enough good shooters that a drive and kick every once in a while will be effective. Plus they are great FT shooters; get in the lane and draw some darn fouls. But it seems Taylor is the only one that knows how to get in the lane and only he does it if he has to. I really don't mind Bo's style of Bball; but I think he could work a little creativity into the offense.

[brwrsfan]

Yeah, the game before Gasser was attacking and it was nice to see. Then that just goes away. The swing offense is fine, but from time to time they need to attack (especially Taylor) and they need to work the post a little more with Bergerron or even Kaminsky. It would sure be nice to see the two of them on the floor together once in awhile too. Two post guys with moves, range and size? Impossible right?

[Oldcity]

I'm going to have to take back my comments from a month or so ago that the Badgers' defense is good because of their slow offensive pace. First of all, their pace has picked up during this winning streak, which is great, but most importantly, this defense is fantastic. That second half against Penn St. was incredible. Evans and Berggren are having great seasons and are both beasts on defense. This might be the best D they've played under Bo.

 

Ryan Evans is a perfect example of what four years under Bo Ryan can do. He was brutal to watch at times his first two seasons, but he's actually developed into a nice offensive player too (if he sticks to his game).

 

A couple things I'd like to see, other people have mentioned as well. A) Gasser getting more aggressive offensively. I feel like he was more aggressive his freshman year than this year. And B) Kaminsky getting more playing time. This might actually be happening the last couple games, though. I really think he's going to be a good player by the time he's done here.

[jjfanec]

I'm going to have to take back my comments from a month or so ago that the Badgers' defense is good because of their slow offensive pace. First of all, their pace has picked up during this winning streak, which is great, but most importantly, this defense is fantastic. That second half against Penn St. was incredible. Evans and Berggren are having great seasons and are both beasts on defense. This might be the best D they've played under Bo.

 

Ryan Evans is a perfect example of what four years under Bo Ryan can do. He was brutal to watch at times his first two seasons, but he's actually developed into a nice offensive player too (if he sticks to his game).

 

A couple things I'd like to see, other people have mentioned as well. A) Gasser getting more aggressive offensively. I feel like he was more aggressive his freshman year than this year. And B) Kaminsky getting more playing time. This might actually be happening the last couple games, though. I really think he's going to be a good player by the time he's done here.

The "if he sticks to his game" part of Evans offensively is key. I am shocked at his development.

They had a good article on one of the sports sites about who had the best defense in college basketball. They talked about exactly what you said. Yes their pace of play is slow but their defense is terrific. Nothing in transition. Make you work for every shot and most of the time you are left with jump shots.

They need to continue to try to probe the paint and not settle for 3-pointers. When they do that they are actually a very solid team

[thebruce44]

Remember that guy Vander Blue--what happened to him? Brust and Gasser are both better.

Yea, I remember him, he had 16 points and 8 rebounds last night, but thats besides the point.

He isn't asked to score on that team. He provides great defense and rebounding. If he was on the Badgers he would most likely have a different role, but so long as he is on the same team as DJO and Crowder he will be asked to continue doing what he has been doing.

I find it pretty difficult to make a definitive statement like that at this point unless its based on sour grapes.

[jjfanec]

Remember that guy Vander Blue--what happened to him? Brust and Gasser are both better.

Yea, I remember him, he had 16 points and 8 rebounds last night, but thats besides the point.

He isn't asked to score on that team. He provides great defense and rebounding. If he was on the Badgers he would most likely have a different role, but so long as he is on the same team as DJO and Crowder he will be asked to continue doing what he has been doing.

I find it pretty difficult to make a definitive statement like that at this point unless its based on sour grapes.

The over-stating of Vander's defense continues. He is a good defender but Todd Mayo takes the other teams scoring threat down the stretch over Vander. He is a very good rebounder as a guard but is usually brutal offensively in the half court. Last night had a lot of transition opportunities and he comfortable there. To say he isnt asked to score because two guys can score is a little shortsighted. They dont have many scoring threats outside of Crowder and DJO so I am guessing there are opportunities to score. Todd Mayo (a freshman) has 5 10 point plus games in conference and Vander has 1. Dont act like he isnt asked to score. Everyone is asked to score but Blue just has not answered the call up until last night.

He will have a very big role next year so we will get a much better look at his game, but there is no need to try to act like his offensive game hasnt been a disappointment so far.

 

[thebruce44]

Remember that guy Vander Blue--what happened to him? Brust and Gasser are both better.

Yea, I remember him, he had 16 points and 8 rebounds last night, but thats besides the point.

He isn't asked to score on that team. He provides great defense and rebounding. If he was on the Badgers he would most likely have a different role, but so long as he is on the same team as DJO and Crowder he will be asked to continue doing what he has been doing.

I find it pretty difficult to make a definitive statement like that at this point unless its based on sour grapes.

The over-stating of Vander's defense continues. He is a good defender but Todd Mayo takes the other teams scoring threat down the stretch over Vander. He is a very good rebounder as a guard but is usually brutal offensively in the half court. Last night had a lot of transition opportunities and he comfortable there. To say he isnt asked to score because two guys can score is a little shortsighted. They dont have many scoring threats outside of Crowder and DJO so I am guessing there are opportunities to score. Todd Mayo (a freshman) has 5 10 point plus games in conference and Vander has 1. Dont act like he isnt asked to score. Everyone is asked to score but Blue just has not answered the call up until last night.

He will have a very big role next year so we will get a much better look at his game, but there is no need to try to act like his offensive game hasnt been a disappointment so far.

 

To say his offensive game has been a disappointment it depends on what you expected from him. You compared his offense to Todd Mayo, I actually find that shortsighted considering Mayo is a year older.

I am personally happy with what Blue has done so far. Perhaps some had expectations of him to be looking to go pro at this point, or to be leading this deep team in scoring. He is a nice complementary player with a lot of upside, and we have seen players explode offensively with this team in the past after looking somewhat irrelevant in previous seasons because of other options (Wes Matthews).

Again, with a player like Blue I find it short sighted to make definitive statements at this point so please don't tell me how to act.

[jjfanec]

The over-stating of Vander's defense continues. He is a good defender but Todd Mayo takes the other teams scoring threat down the stretch over Vander. He is a very good rebounder as a guard but is usually brutal offensively in the half court. Last night had a lot of transition opportunities and he comfortable there. To say he isnt asked to score because two guys can score is a little shortsighted. They dont have many scoring threats outside of Crowder and DJO so I am guessing there are opportunities to score. Todd Mayo (a freshman) has 5 10 point plus games in conference and Vander has 1. Dont act like he isnt asked to score. Everyone is asked to score but Blue just has not answered the call up until last night.

He will have a very big role next year so we will get a much better look at his game, but there is no need to try to act like his offensive game hasnt been a disappointment so far.

 

To say his offensive game has been a disappointment it depends on what you expected from him. You compared his offense to Todd Mayo, I actually find that shortsighted considering Mayo is a year older.

I am personally happy with what Blue has done so far. Perhaps some had expectations of him to be looking to go pro at this point, or to be leading this deep team in scoring. He is a nice complementary player with a lot of upside, and we have seen players explode offensively with this team in the past after looking somewhat irrelevant in previous seasons because of other options (Wes Matthews).

Again, with a player like Blue I find it short sighted to make definitive statements at this point so please don't tell me how to act.

Is Mayo really old for his grade?? He is a freshman this year. That is crazy he is a year older than Blue.

Blue was a top 40 recruit by pretty every recruiting agency. I dont think it is crazy to expect him to a have more than one or two quality offensive Big East games. I dont see why someone can say AT THIS POINT Blue has been a disappointment. In two years Blue has averaged like 6 points a game in conference play. For a top 40 recruit I think it is okay to be disappointed.

The Wes Matthews comparison does add up at all. Wes scored 12 points a game as a sophomore (he actually averaged less the year after that). He had 20 games of 10 points or more in conference play his first two years. Blue has 1. Matthews showed a TON more offensive game than Blue. Unlike Blue Matthews actually excelled in Big East play

Again I dont mean to sound like Blue is a terrible player. He is solid on defense and very good rebounding guard, but he is not an impact player like you would expect of a guy with his hype. He could blow up next year if he works really hard on his shot, but right now he has been underwhelming.

[Glennron]

Every once in a while they will give Berggren a touch down low but not nearly enough.

Agree completely. There have been a number of games where on 2 or 3 consecutive possessions Berggren will get nice inside looks and then they'll completely abandon it. I feel like I might have mentioned it earlier in this thread but against Indiana he had two great moves on Zeller in the first couple minutes of the game. I don't really remember them going to him inside at all after that.

 

I'm excited about Kaminsky in the future too, he has a really nice shooting stroke. I've only seen him take 5 or 6 free throws in conference play but every single one's been dead center. Also looked really good on that three off the pick and pop with Taylor in the second half against PSU last night.

[Baldkin]

Agree completely. There have been a number of games where on 2 or 3 consecutive possessions Berggren will get nice inside looks and then they'll completely abandon it. I feel like I might have mentioned it earlier in this thread but against Indiana he had two great moves on Zeller in the first couple minutes of the game. I don't really remember them going to him inside at all after that.

 

I'm excited about Kaminsky in the future too, he has a really nice shooting stroke. I've only seen him take 5 or 6 free throws in conference play but every single one's been dead center. Also looked really good on that three off the pick and pop with Taylor in the second half against PSU last night.

I've never seen a player transform completely the way Frankie (yes, that is officially what I call him) does when he gets the ball. Honestly, you watch him run up and down the court, it almost looks like he's just going to trip over his own two feet... but once he catches the ball, he's just smooth.

 

So excited for the game on Saturday. Not excited to get in line for the student seat lottery 3.5 hours before gametime. Lottery is done 3 hours before game time. Then, you are *required* to wait in line for the next 90 minutes and finally they let students in 90 minutes before game time. I don't really get that.

[thebruce44]

He will have a very big role next year so we will get a much better look at his game, but there is no need to try to act like his offensive game hasnt been a disappointment so far.

 

To say his offensive game has been a disappointment it depends on what you expected from him. You compared his offense to Todd Mayo, I actually find that shortsighted considering Mayo is a year older.

I am personally happy with what Blue has done so far. Perhaps some had expectations of him to be looking to go pro at this point, or to be leading this deep team in scoring. He is a nice complementary player with a lot of upside, and we have seen players explode offensively with this team in the past after looking somewhat irrelevant in previous seasons because of other options (Wes Matthews).

Again, with a player like Blue I find it short sighted to make definitive statements at this point so please don't tell me how to act.

Is Mayo really old for his grade?? He is a freshman this year. That is crazy he is a year older than Blue.

Blue was a top 40 recruit by pretty every recruiting agency. I dont think it is crazy to expect him to a have more than one or two quality offensive Big East games. I dont see why someone can say AT THIS POINT Blue has been a disappointment. In two years Blue has averaged like 6 points a game in conference play. For a top 40 recruit I think it is okay to be disappointed.

The Wes Matthews comparison does add up at all. Wes scored 12 points a game as a sophomore (he actually averaged less the year after that). He had 20 games of 10 points or more in conference play his first two years. Blue has 1. Matthews showed a TON more offensive game than Blue. Unlike Blue Matthews actually excelled in Big East play

Again I dont mean to sound like Blue is a terrible player. He is solid on defense and very good rebounding guard, but he is not an impact player like you would expect of a guy with his hype. He could blow up next year if he works really hard on his shot, but right now he has been underwhelming.

Yes, Mayo is old for his grade. Thats the reason he wasn't a much higher ranked recruit out of HS.

I agree Blue isn't an impact player at this point. I guess I just saw him as being much more raw than most, so I am not all that surprised by his development so far or lack there of. I also don't like the Gasser comps you get from Badger fans. Really, where I am coming from is that a lot of Badger fans are looking for ways to knock Blue, and there certainly are ways so far in his college career. I just see them as overstated, and thought your argument with Mayo was in that mold, though now I see you just were not aware of the situation.

From your second post, its obvious you are giving Blue credit in areas that he should be receiving credit, something a lot of people in the state of WI refuse to do. I'm pretty excited to see what he can accomplish with another off-season and I hope he can develop down the stretch this year into more of an offensive option as fatigue sets in for other players.

[MJLiverock]

At lunch today I was talking with a friend who is an Illinois grad/fan and we were discussing the style of play in the B10. He just suffered through that MSU/IL rugby match the other night and couldn't understand how teams can recruit athletes and claim to want to do more but end up in these games all the time in the B10. We both remember watching the old IL/MI/OSU, even Minnesota and Indiana when they were good score points, run the floor, press, etc. Now almost every team plays these slow down, grinder games and we couldn't figure out what happened. I understand WI going to that style under Bennett and teams like a NW or an Iowa playing slow, emphasizing D, but why would teams that traditionally have had no problem recruiting athletic scoring players resort to this grinder style which only seems to play into the hands of the weaker teams?

 

I watched the Kansas game last night and was reminded of why I used to love watching college basketball all the time and would watch game after game on Saturdays. The game was so much more fluid, attacking, and exciting. And it wasn't like by being aggressive and playing fast it was some sort of turnover fest or brick show. I think the last few years of watching the B10 devolve into this ultra conservative, I can play slower and tougher than you mentality, had ruined my enjoyment of college basketball. I've already passed on Badger Basketball tickets many times these last couple years but maybe it is time for me to just stop watching B10 basketball altogether and just watch one of the other leagues.

[homer]

MSU actually plays pretty fast (about the same pace as Syracuse and Kentucky) and OSU plays about the same tempo as Kansas. When a fast team plays a deliberate team, the deliberate team usually dictates tempo. And when shots aren't falling for either team in a slow tempo game they can get ugly score wise (e.g. MSU vs. Illinois).

[thebruce44]

At lunch today I was talking with a friend who is an Illinois grad/fan and we were discussing the style of play in the B10. He just suffered through that MSU/IL rugby match the other night and couldn't understand how teams can recruit athletes and claim to want to do more but end up in these games all the time in the B10. We both remember watching the old IL/MI/OSU, even Minnesota and Indiana when they were good score points, run the floor, press, etc. Now almost every team plays these slow down, grinder games and we couldn't figure out what happened. I understand WI going to that style under Bennett and teams like a NW or an Iowa playing slow, emphasizing D, but why would teams that traditionally have had no problem recruiting athletic scoring players resort to this grinder style which only seems to play into the hands of the weaker teams?

 

I watched the Kansas game last night and was reminded of why I used to love watching college basketball all the time and would watch game after game on Saturdays. The game was so much more fluid, attacking, and exciting. And it wasn't like by being aggressive and playing fast it was some sort of turnover fest or brick show. I think the last few years of watching the B10 devolve into this ultra conservative, I can play slower and tougher than you mentality, had ruined my enjoyment of college basketball. I've already passed on Badger Basketball tickets many times these last couple years but maybe it is time for me to just stop watching B10 basketball altogether and just watch one of the other leagues.

My roommates and I (they are both WI grads, I'm MU) were switching back and forth between the Badgers and MU game on Monday night. It was like watching two completely separate sports.

[jjfanec]

MSU actually plays pretty fast (about the same pace as Syracuse and Kentucky) and OSU plays about the same tempo as Kansas. When a fast team plays a deliberate team, the deliberate team usually dictates tempo. And when shots aren't falling for either team in a slow tempo game they can get ugly score wise (e.g. MSU vs. Illinois).

Which is no different than a handful of Big East teams too. People say it like is only the Big Ten that does this. I have watched Georgetown, ND, UConn, and Syracuse all have some low-scoring games. Not in the 40's but 50's and low 60's for sure. I have watched two teams in the NC game last year play to a very low scoring game.

There is a huge difference from teams slowing it down because they are unathletic and teams slowing it down to value the basketball and get good shots. Someone mentioned the Marquette Seton Hall game being a different sport than the Wisconsin PSU game. I only watched the first half of the Marquette game and found it almost unwatchable sure they ran up and down really fast but they were so careless with the ball. Marquette scored 14 more points than the Badgers but turned it over 12 more times! To each their own I guess, but watching teams push just to turn it over all the time is hard to watch for me. In the Villanova game before that the teams combined for like 36 turnovers.

 

[homer]

I only watched the first half of the Marquette game and found it almost unwatchable sure they ran up and down really fast but they were so careless with the ball. Marquette scored 14 more points than the Badgers but turned it over 12 more times! To each their own I guess, but watching teams push just to turn it over all the time is hard to watch for me. In the Villanova game before that the teams combined for like 36 turnovers.

In a perfect world, a team would play fast, take care of the ball, and make shots. But it's extremely rare to find a team that can do all three of those things.

[thebruce44]

MSU actually plays pretty fast (about the same pace as Syracuse and Kentucky) and OSU plays about the same tempo as Kansas. When a fast team plays a deliberate team, the deliberate team usually dictates tempo. And when shots aren't falling for either team in a slow tempo game they can get ugly score wise (e.g. MSU vs. Illinois).

Someone mentioned the Marquette Seton Hall game being a different sport than the Wisconsin PSU game. I only watched the first half of the Marquette game and found it almost unwatchable sure they ran up and down really fast but they were so careless with the ball. Marquette scored 14 more points than the Badgers but turned it over 12 more times!

Yes, I mentioned that in the post directly above yours. You should have watched the second half. MU had 5 turnovers, and only 2 in the last 16 minutes when they played fantastic. Sure, its dangerous that they get on those kind of second half runs after they get down, but they've been so good when they do get hot that its gotten them this far. And that is really why its like watching a different sport, not just the first half of sloppiness. BTW, I wasn't the only one who felt that way, so I don't think it was me being an MU alumni.

[Baldkin]

You can pull a half out of any team in the course of a season and they'll look like that.

 

The Badgers looked that way against Northwestern.

[Oldcity]

Either way, I believe it's 13 straight conference wins combined for Marquette and Wisconsin. Nice to see both teams playing so well. Now UWM on the other hand...

[thebruce44]

You can pull a half out of any team in the course of a season and they'll look like that.

 

The Badgers looked that way against Northwestern.

Yea, but they consistently play well after slow starts. I've watched the majority of their games this season, so I think I can realistically say the aberration was actually the half the other poster watched, so your point stands in that regard.