2012 Shortstop

[brettac1]

I don't think there is any way they can afford both of those guys. I'd rather go with Ramirez and a cheap SS not named Yuniesky Betancourt.

[Oldcity]

They probably can't even afford one of A-Ram or Rollins, much less both. Go with Green and Gamel, get Furcal and some relievers and call it an off-season.

[BrycePecore]

There is now way the Brewers can afford both Rollins and ARam without trading either Hart or Wolf so I would say no to Rollins and insert Furcal instead. An infield of ARam, Furcal, Weeks and Gamel would be pretty solid especially when the starting rotation and outfield will remain intact. I would feel pretty confident going into next season with this roster. Then all DM needs to do is sign 1-2 veteran relievers.

[Nader Raider Tim]

What about getting creative and trying to wow the Marlins with an offer for Hanley Ramirez now that it looks like they are getting Reyes?

 

I'd love to think a package based around Shaun Marcum, Tyler Thornburg and prospects would be able to do it, I know it wouldn't. So would you be willing to try and trade something along the lines of Zack Grienke and prospects (?Thornburg and Gamel?) for Hanley Ramirez and Ricky Nolasco?

 

Grienke would give them the Ace they seem to be coveting. From the Brewers perspective it would be an attempt at buying low on Ramirez and Nolasco. I know the Brewers would need to kick in quite a bit more than just Grienke but get creative with it. The Marlins are putting themselves in a position where they may have to move Ramirez. He supposedly isn't to keen on moving from SS, and I doubt Ozzie would be OK with a pouting Ramirez.

 

I in no way want to trade Grienke but there is no way the Brewers can get another SS with his upside and Nolasco is a bit of an enigma.

[BrycePecore]

What about getting creative and trying to wow the Marlins with an offer for Hanley Ramirez now that it looks like they are getting Reyes?

 

I'd love to think a package based around Shaun Marcum, Tyler Thornburg and prospects would be able to do it, I know it wouldn't. So would you be willing to try and trade something along the lines of Zack Grienke and prospects (?Thornburg and Gamel?) for Hanley Ramirez and Ricky Nolasco?

 

Grienke would give them the Ace they seem to be coveting. From the Brewers perspective it would be an attempt at buying low on Ramirez and Nolasco. I know the Brewers would need to kick in quite a bit more than just Grienke but get creative with it. The Marlins are putting themselves in a position where they may have to move Ramirez. He supposedly isn't to keen on moving from SS, and I doubt Ozzie would be OK with a pouting Ramirez.

 

I in no way want to trade Grienke but there is no way the Brewers can get another SS with his upside and Nolasco is a bit of an enigma.

You do realize the Marlins already have an ace in Josh Johnson who IMO is better than Greinke. Although it would be intriguing to get Ramirez for the next 3 years at a clip of $15.5MM per. Although we wouldn't be able to include Gamel or Green since we need them to fill out the roster. It would have to be a package which starts with Marcum, Thornburg and Gennett plus 1-2 lower level prospects. Personally I don't think the Brewers can afford to lose more prospects and expect to remain competitive long term..

[Nader Raider Tim]

I don't argue with the fact that when healthy Josh Johnson is an amazing top 5 (ish) pitcher. The problem is Josh Johnson is a walking injury. Expecting a healthy Josh Johnson come playoff team isn't something a team with World Series goals should realistically count on.

 

My comment about the "Ace they seem to be coveting" is based around the fact that they have tried to get Gio Gonzalez and have kicked the tires on making a run at James Shields.

[logan82]

No way, no how would I give up any of our starting pitchers for Ramirez. Sure he is a good hitter but his defense is Yuniesque. For the price of Hanley we could go with Furcal, Gamel, Green and still have money left over without giving up one of our starters.

[BrycePecore]

I don't argue with the fact that when healthy Josh Johnson is an amazing top 5 (ish) pitcher. The problem is Josh Johnson is a walking injury. Expecting a healthy Josh Johnson come playoff team isn't something a team with World Series goals should realistically count on.

 

My comment about the "Ace they seem to be coveting" is based around the fact that they have tried to get Gio Gonzalez and have kicked the tires on making a run at James Shields.

I agree Johnson is injury prone and having another top of the rotation pitcher would help shore up their rotation but I just don't see them trading Ramirez for Greinke when they still have offers out to Wilson and Buehrle. But if neither sign with Miami then I could see them using Ramirez as trade bait to acquire a solid #2 starter.

[BrycePecore]

No way, no how would I give up any of our starting pitchers for Ramirez. Sure he is a good hitter but his defense is Yuniesque. For the price of Hanley we could go with Furcal, Gamel, Green and still have money left over without giving up one of our starters.

I would be willing to trade away Marcum, Thornburg and Gennett plus 1-2 lower level prospects for Ramirez and Nolasco. This would shore up our need for a middle of the order bat, SS and starting pitcher to replace Marcum.

[TooLiveBrew]

Marcum+Thornburg+filler wouldn't even come close for those two. Any trade for Ramirez would require the Brewers giving up a lot of young, cost-controlled talent.

Sure he is a good hitter but his defense is Yuniesque.

That's not fair at all to Hanley -- he can't be that bad

[RockCoCougars]

I'm not sure who's more overrated down there now, Ramirez or Reyes. I'd say Ramirez, but it's close.

[TooLiveBrew]

I admit I'm a bit scared for the answer to this, but in what world is a shortstop with a career .306/.380/.506/.886 line "overrated"*? The only way that really gets overrated is if people are calling him the best SS of all time, which I've never heard said about Ramirez.

* Not to mention that half his games over said career have been in an extreme pitchers' park

[brewmann04]

it will be Ramirez and yuni that the feeling we see playing the left side in 2012.

[chadomac]

it will be Ramirez and yuni that the feeling we see playing the left side in 2012.

huh?

[MNBrew]

it will be Ramirez and yuni that the feeling we see playing the left side in 2012.

huh?

Assuming you mean Aramis, not Hanley, right?

[RockCoCougars]

I admit I'm a bit scared for the answer to this, but in what world is a shortstop with a career .306/.380/.506/.886 line "overrated"*? The only way that really gets overrated is if people are calling him the best SS of all time, which I've never heard said about Ramirez.

* Not to mention that half his games over said career have been in an extreme pitchers' park

I will not argue that Ramirez has been star caliber in the past, but people are overlooking his recent decline. Ramirez hasn't approached his career splits for a few years and was absolutely brutal last year. Yes, I also think that his value has been overstated by WAR due to the fact that he is a shortstop. He has always been a sieve at shortstop (it's tough to find anyone this side of Jose Valentin with a lower fielding pct.).

 

As for the Brewers acquiring him, I've said before that I wouldn't take him for 'free' to be on the hook for that contract. I stand by that.

[chadomac]

Hanley also seems to be selfish and immature, and sometimes lazy. I would take him for his offensive potential, but wouldn't give up close to what the Marlins would want.

[BrycePecore]

I will not argue that Ramirez has been star caliber in the past, but people are overlooking his recent decline. Ramirez hasn't approached his career splits for a few years and was absolutely brutal last year. Yes, I also think that his value has been overstated by WAR due to the fact that he is a shortstop. He has always been a sieve at shortstop (it's tough to find anyone this side of Jose Valentin with a lower fielding pct.).

 

As for the Brewers acquiring him, I've said before that I wouldn't take him for 'free' to be on the hook for that contract. I stand by that.

You wouldn't take a shot on a 28 year old, All-Star caliber SS with a career line of .306/.380/.506 for 3yrs/$46.5MM if you didn't have to give anything up for him? His defense may be bad but his offensive numbers more than make up the difference even in a down year. His numbers last season were still better than both Gonzalez and Betancourt albeit in limited time (92 games). At $15.5MM/yr, Ramirez is actually a decent value.

[TooLiveBrew]

people are overlooking his recent decline.

 

"Person" seems to be implying him simply not posting his 4th-consecutive .900+ OPS season in 2010, & being injured for a large part of 2011 = a "decline"

 

I won't argue that he's a positive defender, but even at 3B his value is still very high. I mean, we're fans of a team that gave 600 PAs to an awful defender at 3B who also 'hit' .223/.280/.346/ .626 last season. Ramirez is so much more valuable than that, it's insane.

 

I know you seem to be annoyed by people talking up players' fantasy value, or value as described by WAR. But come on, this guy has put up three HOF caliber seasons, two good ones, & had a bad 2011 when he was dealing with injury problems. I don't expect that you'll change your mind & like him, but at least be objective.

[fondybrewfan]

Lot of rumors out there saying it is between Brewers and Phillies for Jimmy Rollins and that the Brewers are genuinely interested. I am 90% sure Rollins is just using the Brewers for leverage; I just don't think he is leaving Philly.

 

Apparently a meeting between Philly and Rollins did not go well at the Winter Meetings. Rollins wants 5 years and PHI only wants 3. I am not sure if I would want the Brewers to sign this guy for 4 years (definitely not 5) but this would be a pretty huge upgrade at SS if it were to happen. Melvin would probably have to go to the scrap heap or stay internal to fill the remaining positions if we were to commit a substantial salary to Rollins

[RockCoCougars]

Absolutely no to Rollins for me. I'll tell you one thing, Hardy should fire his agent. He would have been the second best shortstop out there, and personally I don't think there is much of a drop-off from Reyes.

 

"Person" seems to be implying him simply not posting his 4th-consecutive .900+ OPS season in 2010, & being injured for a large part of 2011 = a "decline"

 

Well, it is a foreboding trend. He also loses a lot of his luster if he's not a shortstop. He is already poor defensively at short, as he gets older and/or injuries pile up, he will only get worse. Obviously the Marlins recognized this and are moving him. I will not argue the fact that he put up some of the great offensive years for a SS in baseball history, but I think he will be hard pressed to ever get back to that level. Look at what happened to a guy like Nomar (though 'chemicals' may have been involved with that case), I wouldn't be shocked to see a similar decline for Ramirez. Everybody bags on Prince for his size and poor defense, but he never misses a game. Ramirez isn't exactly svelte, he now has an injury history and has been about as bad as Prince defensively (granted at a 'premium' position).

[TooLiveBrew]

Well, it is a foreboding trend.

 

I just don't believe it can be determined if it's a trend or not. He's certainly not 100% fit, but he's no McGehee, either. I think he's going to be one of the best 3B in the NL & MLB for most of the next 5 seasons or so. With Reyes locked up for that timeframe too, the Fish have a huge advantage over the rest of the league on the left side of the infield.

 

 

Absolutely no to Rollins for me.

 

The more I think about this, the more I agree. He sounds like he's looking for a pretty big contract, if a guess at the minimum offer it'd take to get him to listen would be something like 4 yrs./$40M. If he can be had for three seasons or less, great. But if that's the case I don't see why he wouldn't just stay with Philly, given what fondybrewfan posted.

 

I hate to say it, but Rollins smells like a Melvin signing -- guy with a 'track record' & postseason success. I hope he concentrates on Furcal & the trade market.

[Warning Track Power]

The more I think about this, the more I agree. He sounds like he's looking for a pretty big contract, if a guess at the minimum offer it'd take to get him to listen would be something like 4 yrs./$40M. If he can be had for three seasons or less, great. But if that's the case I don't see why he wouldn't just stay with Philly, given what fondybrewfan posted.

 

I hate to say it, but Rollins smells like a Melvin signing -- guy with a 'track record' & postseason success. I hope he concentrates on Furcal & the trade market.

If by some miracle Prince is re-signed, I wouldn't mind seeing Gamel dealt for say Brendan Ryan and Chone Figgins (assuming the Mariners ate almost all of his salary).

 

I don't think Gamel has much trade value (I may be way overestimating it or underestimating it), but I'd love a defensive SS like Ryan and would be willing to take a chance on a free Figgins to battle it out at 3B with McGehee and Green, especially if Hairston signs elsewhere.

 

 

[TooLiveBrew]

Ryan's a guy I like too, for what he is. He's also super-cheap, and I doubt the Mariners view him as all that important to keep. It sounds like the M's are trying to be bidders on Prince, so after they either sign him or fall out of the race, I'd like to see Doug give Jack Z a call. Ryan reminds me of Furcal on defense, but obviously not at the plate.

[logan82]

TooLiveBrew wrote:

Sure he is a good hitter but his defense is Yuniesque.

 

That's not fair at all to Hanley -- he can't be that bad

Career UZR/150

Hanley -9.1,

Yuni -8.1.

 

DRS

Hanley(-3, -27, 1, 4, -16, -8)

Yuni(0, -7, -13, -19, -21, -7).

 

Without watching Hanley play a lot I wouldn't say for sure that he is definitely as bad as Yuni but the stats indicate he is probably close to the same class. Now maybe he was bad when he first came up and his last 2 years were bad because of injury. I wouldn't be willing to take that chance at his current contract.

 

If we got Ramirez as a 3B I would be all for that. I am not sure why he would play 3B for us but not for Florida.