Milwaukee Bucks 2011/2012

[PrinceEatMeat]

Yep, I'll never forgive Karl for dismantling the Big Three. We had a team that had gone to the ECF, and would've gone to the NBA Finals if not for the refs conspiring against us. Then he decided it was a good idea to trade Big Dog, followed by the worst trade in Bucks history by trading Ray Allen for Gary Payton. I would've fired Karl before I let him push me into those idiotic trades. So when you look at it, yeah it really all comes back to Kohl. He let Karl strong arm him into dismantling the best team the Bucks had in years and years.

[CheezWizHed]

I'm sure Karl had some input on the trades, but I tend to blame Ernie Grunfeld for those trades (you, know the GM...).

 

At least with Karl, we actually had someone make the most of the talent we had instead of all the in-and-out coaches that were more supervisors than leaders.

 

Trading Big Dog was the right thing to do. Even trading Allen was "correct" at the time, but what we got back was a COMPLETE failure.

[RockCoCougars]

Yep, I'll never forgive Karl for dismantling the Big Three. We had a team that had gone to the ECF, and would've gone to the NBA Finals if not for the refs conspiring against us. Then he decided it was a good idea to trade Big Dog, followed by the worst trade in Bucks history by trading Ray Allen for Gary Payton. I would've fired Karl before I let him push me into those idiotic trades. So when you look at it, yeah it really all comes back to Kohl. He let Karl strong arm him into dismantling the best team the Bucks had in years and years.

 

Exactly. The '92-'98 period was about as successful of a 'tank' as you will see. With high picks, the Bucks were able to draft two star players (Baker, Robinson) and acquire a HOF (Allen). Even then, there were some horrible drafts (Respert, Traylor) thrown in. Karl swooped in at the end with most of the pieces in place, and could only get two playoff series wins out of that group before his ego took over. He is doing the same thing in Denver right now.

 

A tank was much easier back then, because the Bucks had been coming off a long string of success and had a relatively new arena

[PrinceEatMeat]

I'm sure Karl had some input on the trades, but I tend to blame Ernie Grunfeld for those trades (you, know the GM...).

 

At least with Karl, we actually had someone make the most of the talent we had instead of all the in-and-out coaches that were more supervisors than leaders.

 

Trading Big Dog was the right thing to do. Even trading Allen was "correct" at the time, but what we got back was a COMPLETE failure.

 

It's pretty widely known, and has been reported, that Karl had problems personally with the Big Three, especially Big Dog, and to a lesser extent Allen. He wanted Gary Payton so badly, that he forced the trade. No way that trade happens if Karl isn't the coach. That was a horrible return for Allen. Big Dog being traded was ok, but no way Allen should've been traded at that point. Especially not for an expiring contract. Karl's love for Gary Payton is directly what caused that trade.

[CheezWizHed]

Big Dog being traded was ok

 

Yes, he had one more good year and deteriorated quickly after that.

 

but no way Allen should've been traded at that point.

That was the type of trade the Bucks have to make: replacing an older vet with a younger player already waiting (Redd). I really didn't want Allen to go, but I thought it was time. Just the trade itself was terrible...

 

He wanted Gary Payton so badly, that he forced the trade.

Yes, that is true. But that doesn't make all of Grundfeld's moves to be Karl's fault.

 

There are a handful of elite/very good coaches in the league. Karl was one of them. He isn't elite (like Riley, Zen-master, etc) but he does fit in with the VanGundys, Popovich, etc... Skiles is one step below that group, IMO. Many other recent Bucks coaches didn't come close to that even...

 

It takes a lot to combine the basketball IQ and the ability to meld personalities and egos into a dominant team.

[jjfanec]

Big Dog being traded was ok

 

Yes, he had one more good year and deteriorated quickly after that.

 

but no way Allen should've been traded at that point.

That was the type of trade the Bucks have to make: replacing an older vet with a younger player already waiting (Redd). I really didn't want Allen to go, but I thought it was time. Just the trade itself was terrible...

 

He wanted Gary Payton so badly, that he forced the trade.

Yes, that is true. But that doesn't make all of Grundfeld's moves to be Karl's fault.

 

There are a handful of elite/very good coaches in the league. Karl was one of them. He isn't elite (like Riley, Zen-master, etc) but he does fit in with the VanGundys, Popovich, etc... Skiles is one step below that group, IMO. Many other recent Bucks coaches didn't come close to that even...

 

It takes a lot to combine the basketball IQ and the ability to meld personalities and egos into a dominant team.

 

I dont think I would put Karl in the class with Popovich. Pop is an extremely underrated coach. Even with aging, declining stars he has his team playing as good as anyone outside of Chicago, Miami, and Oklahoma City.

 

Karl is a consistent playoff guys but not great once he gets there. His teams have lost in the first round 12 out of 20 times. In the second round 4 times, conf finals 3 times and championship once. He had three seasons where he was either fired before his team missed the playoffs or his team missed the playoffs. His playoff winning percentage is 44%.

 

Pop has made the playoffs all but one year (his first). In 14 trips he has lost in the first round 3 times. In the semifinals 5 times. He has lost in the conference finals twice and won 4 championships. His playoff winning percentage is 60%

 

I know Pop might have had better players early on but he continues to win with an old Tim Duncan, a constantly hurt Manu and Parker

[RockCoCougars]

As far as I remember, Grunfield was basically a Karl yes man, then when he left, Karl basically was running the asylum single handed. If I remember right, Karl strongly lobbied for both the Traylor pick and the Mason trade. Both those guys turned out terribly, Mason in particular. Then look at the return for the Big 3. Absolutely horrible. Bottom line, Karl left the franchise in shambles, and was paid handsomely to do so. I think that he was overrated as a coach as well. His in-game decision making often left me shaking my head, and I got tired of him making waves about players through the media. Getting only two playoff wins from that group was an absolute crime.

[craigharmann]

 

I dont think I would put Karl in the class with Popovich. Pop is an extremely underrated coach. Even with aging, declining stars he has his team playing as good as anyone outside of Chicago, Miami, and Oklahoma City.

 

Karl is a consistent playoff guys but not great once he gets there. His teams have lost in the first round 12 out of 20 times. In the second round 4 times, conf finals 3 times and championship once. He had three seasons where he was either fired before his team missed the playoffs or his team missed the playoffs. His playoff winning percentage is 44%.

 

Pop has made the playoffs all but one year (his first). In 14 trips he has lost in the first round 3 times. In the semifinals 5 times. He has lost in the conference finals twice and won 4 championships. His playoff winning percentage is 60%

 

I know Pop might have had better players early on but he continues to win with an old Tim Duncan, a constantly hurt Manu and Parker

 

Bingo! Karl isn't anywhere close to Pop. Last year was the anomaly, but Pop is pretty much next to David Robinson in rulership of the city of San Antonio. He's done a great job this year, and I hope the Spurs go far this year and put some people on notice!

[RockCoCougars]

In my view, Popovich is the best coach of this generation, better than Phil Jackson.

[homer]

In my view, Popovich is the best coach of this generation, better than Phil Jackson.

 

 

Jerry Sloan is up there too.

[RockCoCougars]

In my view, Popovich is the best coach of this generation, better than Phil Jackson.

 

 

Jerry Sloan is up there too.

 

Agreed.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I still feel bad for Sloan that he never got a championship. He did come close with Malone and Stockton though. Maybe he'll come back somewhere though. I still think he will.

[JJHardy7]

That was the type of trade the Bucks have to make: replacing an older vet with a younger player already waiting (Redd). I really didn't want Allen to go, but I thought it was time. Just the trade itself was terrible...

 

I think the Bucks traded Ray Ray a bit early. He loved the city and was productive in Seattle. We also gave up Flip Murray who turned into a decent cheap backup guard. Seattle more or less received the 5th pick in the draft when they traded Allen. We didn't get anything near that.

 

As far as Karl, I thought he was one of the better coaches the Bucks have had in awhile. There's no doubt he had some ego issues/etc. The team really needs a dynamic coach that is on the same page as the GM.

[CheezWizHed]

Jerry Sloan is up there too.

 

Yeah, I'd probably have him in that second level too. But he never did much after Malone and Stockton left, so I waffled a bit on him.

 

I guess maybe my coaching "buckets" might be bigger than others. If I had Pop vs. Karl, I'd pick Pop, but he also had the luxury of staying in one spot and having a lot of talent on the roster. Talk about the Bulls being lucky with Rose... San Antonio has Robinson get injured one year, tanks, drafts Duncan - boom - instant star to star replacement.

 

I just wouldn't put Pop in the elite category.

[jjfanec]

Jerry Sloan is up there too.

 

Yeah, I'd probably have him in that second level too. But he never did much after Malone and Stockton left, so I waffled a bit on him.

 

I guess maybe my coaching "buckets" might be bigger than others. If I had Pop vs. Karl, I'd pick Pop, but he also had the luxury of staying in one spot and having a lot of talent on the roster. Talk about the Bulls being lucky with Rose... San Antonio has Robinson get injured one year, tanks, drafts Duncan - boom - instant star to star replacement.

 

I just wouldn't put Pop in the elite category.

 

Yet you have Jackson as elite and he had the benefit of MJ and Kobe. Pops playoff record is so much better than Karl and his team consistently play much better in the regular season. Karl got close on a Sonics team that had Kemp and Payton and a Nuggets team with Melo. It isnt like he was playing short-handed all these years.

 

I respect differing opinions but I think Pop is the most underrated coach in the last couple decades. His team wins titles but he doesnt get lumped in with the elite coaches

[CheezWizHed]

Yet you have Jackson as elite and he had the benefit of MJ and Kobe.

 

Any "good" coach will have "good" players. I didn't mean to insinuate that is only based on players. Jackson gains "elite" in my eyes based on what the teams did with him, then without him. Both Kobe and MJ elevated their games with Jackson. Hard to say if it was natural progression or good coaching (or both).

 

He also seems to be excellent in the handling of massive egos and keeping players working together. Kobe and Shaq? Dennis Rodman? "Elite" in my eyes goes way beyond the Xs and Os of basketball itself.

 

I might be discounting Pop too much, but I see something like Jerry Sloan. They had the benefit of being at one place for a long time with the same star players. Especially Pop, Duncan is one of humblest players out there. Maybe if he turns Stephen Jackson into a high value SG again...

[Baldkin]

Jackson had at least 2 of the top 15 guys in the NBA on his team for each of his 11 titles. For 9 of those titles, he had 2 of the top 5 or 6. He gets credit for managing talent and ego's but Pop doesn't? Pop loses credit for having Duncan but Jackson doesn't for having Jordan, Pippen, Kobe and Shaq -- not to mention Pau Gasol in his latest two titles.

 

I guess I don't understand the stance.

[CheezWizHed]

We have established that most people would rather have the Bucks "tank" this year, myself included. Their chances of the playoffs and kind of low and if they make it, we are hoping they will win a game or two before bowing out in the first round.

 

So what would have to happen (short of a miracle) for the Bucks to gel and pull an upset in the playoffs? Sure, its all conjecture and unlikely, but at least its positive thinking.

 

1) Stop the streaky play. Every single one of our starters has had hot (even white hot) and cold streaks over several games. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be hot together.

 

2) Run and Run. The Bucks seem to have a lot of decent talent, but no star talent. We often get beat with our first team and catch up with the seconds. So we need to keep the uptempo to force the other teams to use a deeper bench, where we get an advantage.

 

3) Defense. Some games seem like they get it, other times they look like wet tissue paper. With Gooden at C and Ellis at SG, I don't think we have a chance to be very good here (like a couple years back in the playoffs), but they have to be decent.

 

If all three of those things gel together, I can see them upsetting a Miami in the playoffs. Sure its a long, long shot, but...

[fondybrewfan]

Someone like Lebron, DRose, Wade would have to be hurt.

 

I know they beat the Heat a couple times already this year but come playoff time I just don't see them beating the Heat at full strength. Maybe a game but they could never beat them 4 times.

 

Part of me likes to think they could play a series similar to ATL a couple years ago but this Miami team just doesn't compare at all.

 

I agree with you on the running part. Bucks don't have enough offensive talent to sit in a half court game and hope for good defensive.

 

Bucks have already won to many games to have any chance of a decent pick so I am cheering them to do as well as possible down the stretch. There is no difference between the 10th pick and the 16th pick in the NBA.

[paul253]

The more guys I see declaring for the NBA draft the more I wish the Bucks would have used Bogut and/or Jennings to try to acquire an additional lottery pick. Even though we may not like certain players (Perry Jones for instance) the fact that he is there and will be a lottery pick pushes other players back that Milwaukee may like better. These are all guys I would like to see playing in Milwaukee. Some are unrealistic and some I like a lot more than others, but I wouldn't complain about having any of these guys:

 

Anthony Davis, Kidd-Gilchrist, Sullinger, Barnes, Drummond, Rivers, Perry Jones, Thomas Robinson, Kendall Marshall, Beal, Wrotten, Jeremy Lamb, Cody Zeller (though he may go back to school) Terrence Jones, and John Henson. A few foreign guys always pop up too somewhere but getting a second lottery pick (assuming they don't make the playoffs) assures that you get two of these guys. Of course it's a moot point now but I think that's the direction they needed to go to help turn the franchise around.

We have established that most people would rather have the Bucks "tank" this year, myself included. Their chances of the playoffs and kind of low and if they make it, we are hoping they will win a game or two before bowing out in the first round.

 

If they do make the playoffs they will most likely play Chicago. Not only will Chicago win pretty easily, but Chicago fans will fill up the BC. I'm not sure that is necessarily a good thing for this franchise.

[rwa12]

I see Sullinger as Traylor part deux. I like the Zeller brothers, I think Tyler will actually put up numbers comparable to Hansbrough. Probably never an All-Star, but a valuable rotation member. Not sure what to think about Perry Jones, I'm leary of physical talent guys who just can't figure it out. I'd love to steal Kendall Marshall, I think he develops into a great pass first PG. When Aaron Craft comes out (not sure when that is), the Bucks would be smart to snatch him, assuming they are sticking with Skiles. He was born to run a Scott Skiles team.

[CheezWizHed]

If they do make the playoffs they will most likely play Chicago. Not only will Chicago win pretty easily, but Chicago fans will fill up the BC. I'm not sure that is necessarily a good thing for this franchise.

 

Agreed. I don't think they match-up against the Bulls well at all. Miami just gives me that vibe that they would take the Bucks very lightly in the playoffs and could be a surprise upset.

 

First round of the playoffs is still best of 5, right? Best of 7, they probably don't have a chance...

[Oldcity]

Nah, they changed all the rounds to best of 7 a few years ago. As if the NBA playoffs needed to last even longer.

[RockCoCougars]

I really don't see this draft as being that strong, relatively speaking. I've watched a lot of college basketball games this year, and don't see most of the 'lottery' guys talked about in baited breath as being all that special- at least not more so than other years. That Davis kid from Kentucky looks to be the real deal, but even he appears to be pretty soft.

[Baldkin]

The way I've heard this draft described, outside of Davis, is that it's really, really deep, but very volatile.

 

You could get a super star with the 3rd pick, or the 15th pick, but no one really knows.