Is Jorge Posada a Hall of Famer?

[JimH5]

Posada had a great Division Series, seemingly wrapping up his 17-year career.

 

He has 4 World Series championships, 11 post-season homers, 275 career regular-season homers, 379 doubles, 900 runs, 1065 rbi, 1664 hits, a career .273 batting average, .374 OBP, .474 SLG. He has 5 All-Star appearances & 5 Silver Sluggers.

 

Is he a Hall of Famer?

 

There are 16 Hall of Fame catchers. . .

 

Johnny Bench

Yogi Berra

Roger Bresnahan

Roy Campanella

Gary Carter

Mickey Cochrane

Bill Dickey

Buck Ewing

Rick Ferrell

Carlton Fisk

Josh Gibson

Gabby Hartnett

Ernie Lombardi

Biz Mackey

Louis Santop

Ray Schalk

 

Seemingly, Mike Piazza & Ivan Rodriguez will join that group.

 

And I think Posada belongs too.

[dlk9s]

No.

 

 

I'll elaborate briefly. Without even looking at the numbers, at no point in his career have I ever thought, "Holy cow, this guy is amazing. This guy is truly an elite player of his generation." I know that's really simplistic and not giving him enough credit for his accomplishments, but he just doesn't pass the eyeball test to me. He's been a really good player and I like him, but I think he's a notch below elite. Same goes for Johnny Damon.

[RockCoCougars]

I'd say no. Posada is kind of like the Bernie Williams of catchers to me. Very good player on a lot of great teams, but never won an MVP and doesn't have the counting stats. Posada has roughly the same amount of career hits as Thurman Munson. If I'm voting for a Yankee catcher, it'd be him.

 

I'll let someone else make the Ted Simmons argument.

[Invader3K]

No. Very good player, but if he didn't play his whole career with the Yankees, it wouldn't even be a question. If you vote him in, you have to vote in Jason Kendall and a bunch of others.

[TooLiveBrew]

He's been a really good player and I like him, but I think he's a notch below elite.

 

I think you're overlooking just how valuable his bat was at catcher. Jorge's a HoFer for me.

 

Players with a lower career OPS+ who are in the Hall:

Lou Bodreau

Joe Gordon

Tony Lazzeri

Joe Cronin

Andre Dawson

Casey Stengel

Hughie Jennings

Carlton Fisk

Roberto Alomar

Gary Carter

Bobby Doerr

Robin Yount

Hary Hooper

Ryne Sandberg

 

... and the list goes on further than that -- including seven of the HoF catchers JimH5 listed in his OP. Derek Jeter also has a lower career OPS+. I realize OPS+ isn't exactly the best stat to use, but it's not bad across different eras.

 

Keep in mind Posada is also a guy that will probably play his entire career with one team. Granted, that's the richest team in baseball, but that's still brownie points with voters, I'm sure.

 

 

If you vote him in, you have to vote in Jason Kendall and a bunch of others.

 

Kendall's had nowhere near the career that Posada has had. Kendall while he was still in Pittsburgh is a guy who can match up with Posada. Kendall for his entire career can't hold a candle to Posada.

 

Seriously people, look at Posada's career. If anything, playing for the Yankees has hurt him imo since he's been viewed as "good but not great" because he's played alongside guys like Jeter, A-Rod, etc. Please remember this is a catcher. Hitters like him at that position are incredibly rare.

 

 

EDIT: tl;dr -- Yes, he's a Hall of Famer

[StearnsFTW]

One of 2-3 best catchers of his era, and the only one I'm personally pretty sure wasn't a juicer.

 

Sounds like a HOFer to me.

[JohnBriggs12]

If Ted Simmons who has 800 more hits and 300 more RBI isn't in, then you can't put in Posada.

 

Posada's HR totals and slugging are skewed by playing in Yankee Stadium. Simmons would have hit 300 if he played there. Yes he has a lot of postseason stats, but that's a function of the economics of the game more than anything.

[gregmag]

I think he probably is; I think Too Live Brew makes very good points. I yield to no one in my hatred for the Yankees and my contempt for the economic structure that allows the Yankees to dominate year after year. But I think Too Live Brew is right that playing for the Yankees actually hurts some of their second-tier stars. If Jorge Posada had put up his career numbers in a Milwaukee uniform, I think everybody would have an easier time seeing how great he was.

 

I do like OPS+ as a basis for cross-era comparison. Using that stat, Posada had three years better than Jason Kendall's best year, four years better than Jason Varitek's best year, eight years better than A.J. Pierzynski's best year, and a bunch more years that would fit comfortably among the best few seasons that each of those guys had. Paul LoDuca, Charles Johson, and Sandy Alomar had one year each that would make Posada's top ten; Mike Lieberthal had two. Neither Benito Santiago, Terry Steinbach, nor Darrin Fletcher never put up a good Jorge Posada season with the bat. Todd Hundley did put up four years that rival Posada's best, but only two of those were over 400 PA, and he didn't have another decent year outside those four. Almost all of the guys I've just mentioned had career OPS+ figures around 95, give or take a few points. Hundley tops the group at 102; Lieberthal and Steinbach are at 101; Alomar is down at 86. Only Santiago and Alomar had longer careers than Posada; most of the others played right around the same length of time. In short, Posada's 121 OPS+ over a 15-year career leaves that whole crowd in the dust.

 

Whom does that leave, among Posada's contemporaries? I think most of us would agree that Pudge Rodriguez and Mike Piazza are the two top catchers of the era we're talking about. Joe Mauer has a chance to be even better. After that, Javy Lopez was a fine hitter for a catcher, but not quite at Posada's level -- OPS+ of 112. Victor Martinez is right there with Posada, OPS+ of 122, but he isn't a catcher any more, and he hasn't hit his decline years yet. Chris Hoiles had two great years and put up a 119 OPS+ for his career, but he only topped 500 PA once in a short career.

 

Quite a few of these guys were better defensively than Posada, but I don't think any of them except Pudge (who doesn't need much help anyway) was better by a wide enough margin to come close to making up for Posada's offensive superiority. When the dust settles on all of these careers, people active between the mid-90s and now, I think the rankings will likely look something like:

 

1. Pudge

2. Piazza

3. Mauer

4. Posada

5. Martinez

6. Lopez.

 

Posada could end up a spot higher or lower, but I think that's about right. Then it gets down to what your standards are. Posada, as Too Live Brew noted, is right in the middle of HOF catchers statistically, so that speaks well for him. Three catchers from the same era doesn't seem like too many to enshrine -- Bench, Fisk, and Carter were rough contemporaries. Is four too many? Maybe. On the other hand, I think Ted Simmons has a great case, and I think (relatedly) that the HOF has underappreciated catchers. For me, then, Posada belongs. I can see a case for leaving him out, but it's a close argument at worst -- it has nothing to do with guys like Jason Kendall.