Quitting Your Fandom

[GAME05]

there was some discussion of this in the DH thread, but i wanted to open this up further to ask if there is anything that could be done to make you stop watching Major League Baseball. and maybe even further, to stop watching Brewers baseball. not necessarily the minor leagues, but Brewers baseball at the Major League level.

i wouldn't like it, but i could probably deal with the DH in the National League. however, i believe the financial differences between teams is the biggest problem in baseball, and i'm upset that Selig is essentially ignoring it as if it doesn't exist. he'll cite the one playoff team who makes it, but ignore the fact that it took six years of 90+ loss seasons and a lot of good drafting to get there. for me, this is shown no more than in Selig's push to add more playoff teams. when not one, but two or three small-market teams make the playoffs, i suppose we won't be allowed to complain that the big-market clubs have all the advantages. not to mention, grinding out a long regular season is made pointless when anybody decent will make the playoffs. for me, then, adding playoff teams will make me quit my fandom. maybe i'd watch the Playoffs, but that would be about it.

[rluzinski]

I have the same opinion as you. Another decade-long streak of having no chance of competing might do it for me. If I see a $40 mil payroll for an extended period again, it's a waste of time.

[DuWayne Steurer]

First and obviously, if the Brewers left Wisconsin, I'd be done with them.

 

If such a scenario had unfolded before we moved to the NL, I probably would have fell fairly easily into the trap of becoming a Cubs fan, as they were already my favorite NL team. Nowadays I hate them with the fury of a million suns, so that ship sailed a long time ago. I'd probably become either a Twins fan, or not be fan of any one team.

 

If the Crew were to slip back into their old ways.......spending TOO frugally, or like Bando, spending too much on mediocre crap........that would be a tough call. If there were literally 'no end in site', I don't know if I could turn my back on the team, I'm just not sure. There's things that I think "boy, if I have to watch another season of YuniB at short, I just won't watch", but I know that's a lie. I'll watch/listen, and just keep complaining impotently about it.

[Ennder]

Add an NFL style salary cap. I'd stop watching the day it was added.

 

That is really about the only thing they could do.

 

They could shorten games, shorten the season etc which would probably upset my traditionalist side but I would still watch. Taking the DH away from the AL would piss me off but I'd be happier than the way it is split now.

 

They could add the DH to the NL, fix international player drafting, add a

salary floor, increase revenue sharing etc and I'd love the game even

more so plenty of room to improve.

[hawing]

First and obviously, if the Brewers left Wisconsin, I'd be done with them.

Same here. Over time, I've mentioned elsewhere on this forum that in 1995, before George Petak infamously changed his vote and Miller Park was anything but a sure thing, I'd prepared a mental short list of teams I'd consider following in case the Brewers relocated and instantly became my anti-franchise. If this possibility reared its ugly head again, I'd probably return to the same list. (The Cubs were not on my 1995 list and would not be on a future list, as their only possible appeal to me is their relative proximity.)

 

I'd want to seriously rethink my Brewers fandom if TLR became the manager. His history as a "champion" is for me way overshadowed by the mindgames and whining (and to a lesser extent the drinking).

[CheezWizHed]

First and obviously, if the Brewers left Wisconsin, I'd be done with them.

 

Yes. I'm a homer, so I'd agree with that. I would become a token Twins fan (Cubs - no way). But I wouldn't follow them anywhere near what I do with the Brewers.

 

Other things that water down the game for the sake of profits wouldn't necessarily shove me away, but would lessen my interest:

- Increasing the number of games.

- Increasing the number of playoff teams

-- Both of those extend an already incredibly long season.

- Not fixing the salary cap - its got to be competitive. No one said this has to be a capitalist system.

- DH in the NL

[Patrick425]

The Brewers leaving Wisconsin would be the only reason I can think of that would cause me to stop being a Brewer fan. I would still be a baseball fan, but probably to a lesser degree.

 

The Brewers going through another Bando type era would not lesson my "fandom" of the Brewers. I know the thought process is that if the team owner and front office do not seem to care for the team then why should I continue to pay for tickets. Regardless of what management does, I'm still going to root for the home town ball players. Even if that means I need to spend money on tickets. I know that there is already a thread about "hating Bando", so I won't get too much into this other than to say there was a bit of a chicken and egg thing going on. Hard to draw fans when your payroll is one of the lowest in the league and the team is struggling because of that, but also hard to increase payroll when your attendance is one of the lowest in the league. I think of the movie Major League and the die hards in the bleachers banging the drum and following their pathetic team every game regardless of the payroll or who is on the team. I have been a partial season ticket holder for the last 20 years and there have been some pretty brutal stretches in that time period but I continued to renew each year with optimism that the next year would be different. I feel like I'm finally being rewarded for my patience (as I was briefly in 2008). I have always been a bit bothered by fans that come and go with the fortunes of the team.

 

On the other hand if the Brewers suddenly became like the Yankees and started spending $200 million plus each year on payroll, that might lesson my enthusiasm for the team more than a lowball payroll would. It's like rooting for the runner in the 400 yard dash that is given a 100 yard lead before the race even starts. Hard to get excited about that.

[craigharmann]

As one who has loved and lived and died with the Brew Crew since '82, I take my feeling (albeit a little uncomfortably) from Brokeback Mountain....."I cain't quit you, Brewers. I cain't quit you!"

[Ando Calrissian]

The older I get the less emotional I become in my attachment to the game while growing in viewing MLB and the Brewers as a product. Every off season I've begun asking myself whether or not this product warrants my time and money. Baseball is far and away my favorite sport, but for reasons already articulated in this thread, deciding not to patronize this system isn't that far of a leap for me. Even with the improved owernship and some positive seasons, I sense I'm on the fence every year regarding my continued support.

 

As long as MLB is seeing record profits, there is no incentive for the owners to change a single thing. The only thing that can force their hand is loss of revenue. This is what makes me re-think my fandom all the time.

[brwrsfan]

I think I'm actually slowly moving away from being a baseball fan. I love the Brewers and baseball itself, but the system is so unfair that it's going to drive me away. Every year when I see the Yankees and Red Sox buy their way into the playoffs, I move an inch in that direction. When the Brewers develop a player like Prince and likely have him leave simply because we can't afford him, that's going to move me another inch or two. At some point I'm going to hit the edge unless it's fixed (which it never will be in my opionion). I don't know when that day will come, and it's likely a long ways away but I can feel it happening. The system is incredibly flawed, and it's just not fun to think that even with talent, we essentially only had a very small window to have any sort of championship chance, and after that, will likely have to go through years of rebuilding.

 

I don't think I would ever stop watching completely, but when I hit the edge I'll likely cancel my season tickets and only watch them casually. Maybe.

[jeffy]

Add an NFL style salary cap. I'd stop watching the day it was added.

 

That seems odd coming from a fan of a team that can only ever possibly spend about 1/2 as much as the top teams on player payroll. I am very curious as to why you feel this way, can you explain?

 

 

 

In the DH discussion I indicated it would be unlikely that I would continue to follow the team if the Brewers demonstrate that it is really just about impossible for them to really compete with the top teams, the NL adopts the DH, and the Cubs get a GM that can transform them into a NL version of the Yankees (as that adds to the hopelessness).

 

If there is no NL DH, but the other two things occur (hopelessness for the Brewers and the Cubs are an NL Yankees) it is very hard for me to see myself getting transformed (back) into a Cub fan, but that would seem to be the most likely outcome.

[monty57]

To be completely honest with myself, whatever happens I will probably watch nearly every Brewers game until the day I die. The team moving may be the one exception.

 

If the Brewers decide to go with another "all in" year next year, trading away the remainder of their prospects for a year or two of a 1B & SS, and then losing Marcum, Greinke and Wolf after 2012 and assuring us of an extended period of bad baseball, I will probably spend more of my time away from FSN Wisconsin, but I would still be a Brewers fan.

[Baldkin]

however, i believe the financial differences between teams is the biggest problem in baseball, and i'm upset that Selig is essentially ignoring it as if it doesn't exist. he'll cite the one playoff team who makes it, but ignore the fact that it took six years of 90+ loss seasons and a lot of good drafting to get there.

You simply cannot blame Bud for this. He's done more for competitive balance with revenue sharing and the luxury tax than most would've thought possible 20 years ago.

 

The Yankees pay upwards of 150M a year on revenue sharing and the luxury tax and there's no way the MLBPA would ever agree to a hard salary cap

[Ennder]

That seems odd coming from a fan of a team that can only ever possibly spend about 1/2 as much as the top teams on player payroll. I am very curious as to why you feel this way, can you explain?

 

It would derail the thread to go into much detail but I'll just say I'm all for finding ways to create a more even playing field but a hard salary cap that every team lives at is not one of the ways I'd prefer to do it, I don't really like it in football and I think it is an even worse fit for baseball.

[brwrsfan]

Huh. That's a very interesting take, as most people I talk to about it think that football has it perfect. The teams are relatively even, they have a hard cap so if you make a bad contract mistake, you pay for it. It allows everyone an equal shot at free agents and it also means that you can't really form super teams (see Yankees and Heat), at least not for a very long stretch. Personally, I think the NFL system is perfect, as it is really to a players advantage to sign early and stay with one team (as they know they won't get a monster contract as a FA in most cases). It's the exact opposite of baseball. You very, very rarely see an elite NFL player change teams, and if he does, you have no idea where he's going.

 

In MLB, it happens every year and the player is almost always going to wind up on 1 of 5 or so teams.

[jeffy]

The Yankees pay upwards of 150M a year on revenue sharing and the luxury tax...

 

Yet that still left them with $427 million in revenue for 2010, $155 million more than the next highest team (Boston) and over 2 times the median (Houston with $197 million).

[Bombers]

Below is the ranking (high to low) by the money each team spent this year. I commented about where they are currently ranked for making playoffs.

I am a strong advocate for a salary cap and minimum by team. The table below shows the current system is crap. Per usual - spending money doesn't guarantee you to win a World Series but it greatly increases your probability on making the playoffs. As 8 of the top 15 teams are either in the playoffs (6 teams) or very close (2 teams are close). Where as the bottom 15 teams in terms of spending, 4 are in last place in their division, and only 3 teams in the bottom 15 are either in the playoffs (Brewers / DBacks) or fighing to make it (Rays) . Ironic the two highest paying teams are currently the 1 seed in both the NL and AL.

Team	Salary	Current Playoff Position
New York Yankees	$ 207,047,964.00	1 seed
Philadelphia Phillies	$ 165,976,381.00	1 seed
Boston Red Sox	$ 164,877,476.00	Wild Card
Los Angeles Angels	$ 145,398,524.00	2 games behind division lead
New York Mets	$ 142,797,167.00	3rd place
Chicago Cubs	$ 134,329,000.00	Stink
Chicago White Sox	$ 127,789,000.00	3rd place
San Francisco Giants	$ 118,198,333.00	Last years world series champ, 8 games out
Minnesota Twins	$ 113,237,000.00	Last place
St. Louis Cardinals	$ 109,798,000.00	4 games back from wild card
Los Angeles Dodgers	$ 108,388,167.00	Out
Detroit Tigers	$ 106,953,000.00	2 seed
Texas Rangers	$ 93,923,420.00	3 seed
Seattle Mariners	$ 93,623,191.00	Last Place
Atlanta Braves	$ 92,205,750.00	Wild Card
Baltimore Orioles	$ 86,989,250.00	Last Place
Milwaukee Brewers	$ 84,253,333.00	3 seed
Colorado Rockies	$ 82,311,404.00	4th place
Cincinnati Reds	$ 80,826,667.00	3rd place
Houston Astros	$ 77,694,000.00	Last Place
Toronto Blue Jays	$ 70,317,800.00	4th place
Washington Nationals	$ 67,956,929.00	4th place
Oakland Athletics	$ 67,094,000.00	3rd place
Florida Marlins	$ 57,695,000.00	Last Place
Arizona Diamondbacks	$ 54,989,833.00	2 seed
Cleveland Indians	$ 49,426,567.00	3rd place
San Diego Padres	$ 45,869,140.00	Last Place
Pittsburgh Pirates	$ 44,247,000.00	4th place
Tampa Bay Rays	$ 43,171,308.00	3 games back from Wild Card
Kansas City Royals	$ 39,506,000.00	4th place

And for those who do not want a salary cap in baseball like there is in the NFL I'd love to hear your idea for equalling out the playing field.

Here is a thought: Take a number say $100 million and set it as the bar. If you are 10 million over that number, you forfeit your first round pick. If you are 20 over, you forfeit your first and second round pick, 30 over, first 3 rounds, etc. That would let them "buy" whoever they want, but the small market teams would be able to draft their team.

[LaprilOne]

AS a young fan growing up in Chicago, I was upset that the Dodgers and Brooklyn moved, this was not right, it is the "Brooklyn" Dodgers, always was! I was upset the Braves moved from Milwaukee, that was not right. Then, an expanded season! Free agency (darn that Curt flood!) Then divisions! Then Wild Card! OMG. Yet, always stayed with it, adapted, got older, understood things change everywhere and all the time.

 

So with 20, 30 years tops to live, I imagine I will get through what other changes are sure to come. T0o many other things will be more important. As long it is fundamentally Baseball, I will go with the flow.

[Baldkin]

Sigh. I totally derailed this thread. I apologize.

Perhaps a mod can split the thread to get it back on topic.

 

I just dislike everyone blaming Bud for everything, when there really isn't anything he can do to fix it, aside from missing another WS or two.

[dadofandrew]

TB has figured out a way to be competitive despite a low payroll, just like Beane did years ago. It's about finding the players who are undervalued. As of now, those are pre-arby players, with some cheap FA's found to fill out the bullpen.

 

In many ways, I long for the days when the Brewers were building, and the mainstream was too busy watching the Packers or NASCAR to notice. We never went to a game this year because every game we looked at was packed. Deciding to go on a Friday night, and arriving 30 minutes prior to the game Saturday and walking up to the ticket window, and paying $12 each for passable seats are a joy set aside for those in TB, PIT, and SD.

[Invader3K]

I just dislike everyone blaming Bud for everything, when there really isn't anything he can do to fix it, aside from missing another WS or two.

Yeah. I always laugh at people who claim Selig has been a horrible commissioner. He has done much more good for the game than bad, in my opinion. I think some forget that he is just the commissioner and not the emperor of baseball.

It would take a lot for me to get away from being a fan of the Brewers (unless they moved out of the state or something). I've been a fan ever since my dad took me to my first game in 1988. It was a night game against the Seattle Mariners, late in the season. A young rookie named Gary Sheffield hit a home run that night, and he became my favorite player for a couple years, along with Paul Molitor. If I could survive how those two ended up leaving the team, I guess it will take a lot to drive me away. I sort of didn't follow the team as much in the mid '90s, mainly due to being in high school and having other distractions. I started following them again in college in the late '90s and early 2000's, when the team was terrible. So it would take quite a free fall again for me to not really pay any attention.

As far as the game of baseball in general, and MLB's situation, I think there could be more parity, but it has gotten a bit better than it was a few years ago. I think one of the frustrations of being a small market fan is that you're inevitably going to have those longer "rebuilding" periods, whereas in the NFL you're one top draft pick away from competing, basically. Those types of quick turnarounds for an MLB franchise are extremely rare.

 

[GAME05]

a small part of any ire toward Bud is merely not knowing where else to direct it. however i still think it's broken enough that it could make me leave, and i see a lot of what Bud still does is put frosting on a cardboard box and call it a cake. but i know nothing is going to significantly change because it's still a battle between the Players Union, the big-market clubs and tv ratings, all vs. small market clubs, and that's not a winnable fight.

[FVBrewerFan]

Decided to answer this question by thinking back to why I'm not a big Bucks fan anymore, or NBA fan in general. Huge fan back in the Moncrief, Bridgeman, Lanier days. I guess the NBA lost me for 3 reasons. 1) Officiating. Star treatment, traveling not called, etc. 2) Players attitude. Players now determine if a coach stays or goes, negotiate for minutes, play hard when they want, or don't if they want out, etc, etc. 3) The game changed. Good fundamental basketball is gone. Flying into the lane and getting a foul called (if you're a star), pumping up 3 pointers, and fast break. That be be entertaining, but it's not basketall the way I grew up playing it and watching it.

 

NFL. They almost lost me too. However, I've remained a fan because the players are still intense and want to win and 99% give it all. Watch a 2-12 team play, and they're still trying to play their very best. However, more rule changes to pump up points started getting on my nerves big time. A DB barely touches a WR and it's an automatic 1st down. Pass rusher grazes a QB's helmut....1st down. Only week one, but they didn't appear to call things quite so closely this year.

 

So...MLB. They could lose me if any of those three things happened. Crazy rule changes are unlikely. 9 innings, 3 outs, 4 balls, 3 strikes. An out's an out. One of the great things about baseball, and hard to imagine that changing in any way. I also don't imagine players attitude will change, but you never know. If they cop an NBA attitude, they will lose me.

 

Most likely scenerio is the game will change due to juiced ball, juiced players, smaller ballparks, etc. 3TO baseball would turn me off. I'm still not convinced the ball wasn't juiced for a period of time when 30 HRs was nothing.

 

As far as the salary cap goes, sure I would love to see more revenue sharing and/or cap. But that won't be a determining factor in whether I'm a fan or not. There are teams in every sport players are attracted to. Yankees are at the top of that list. So even if there was a cap, players would gravitate towards the Yankees- maybe even for a less money. It's what you see now in the NFL/NBA.

 

The reason teams like the Braves, Giants, Cards are always at or near the top is that they draft and develop pitching. Sure, teams like the Yankess and Phils go out and buy it, but nothing is preventing the Brewers from drafting and eveloping 5 SP of Yo's quality or better over the past 10 years.

[AdvantageSchneider]

For a moment after the Cards swept us at home I was thinking that if the Brewers somehow blew it and didn't make the playoffs I would be done with them, because I have no desire to be a cubs fan for the rest of my life, knowing that I'm going to die without ever seeing them win the WS.

[logan82]

only if the Brewers left would I quit being a Brewers fan. Keeping Kotsay and YunE make being a Brewer fan less fun.