Will Mat Gamel be brought up? Latest -- Don Money on Gamel, Gindl, McClendon

[logan82]

We knew about the reporting late issues in ST.

 

Gamel never reported late. He showed up late to practice twice. He always reported on time. He just didn't report early like many players did.

 

If this was just a Money/Gamel personality issue, Gamel would have already been in the MLB level.

 

I kind of doubt it. He really needed most of this year to work at 1B in the minors. Other than that he has mostly been blocked as a starter and they are really in love with Kotsay(or were before Green) as a bench player.

[jjfanec]

We knew about the reporting late issues in ST.

 

Gamel never reported late. He showed up late to practice twice. He always reported on time. He just didn't report early like many players did.

He reported later than others as a guy fighting for a spot. Right or wrong that shows something to coaches. He also showed up over weight.

[jmeks23]

I don't even understand why people are upset. He's been a talented prospect for almost 5 years now, and has opportunities to play the last 3 seasons. But he's 26 now, and he needs to get his act together if he ever hopes to be a good major leaguer. I think organizationally (at least the ones involved) they've soured on Gamel. He produces, but from all reports he just doesn't want to give it everything he's got to be a major leaguer, and succeed.

 

I mean honestly, him at 3B was a prime example. He played there basically his whole minor league career and never once got better, always the same problems. Then he complained about being moved to the OF and 1B, when that was the best thing for him to be promoted. Obviously he's been pretty good this year, but it's just the sum of the parts not equaling the whole with Gamel. He produces offensively every year in the minors, but all things he does (or doesn't do) is what drives the Brewers crazy. It's just time for him to get his a** is gear.

 

I still hope to see him at 1B next year if Prince walks, but who knows anymore.

[chuckiehacks]

I can't see how people are blaming Money for Gamel not being in Milwaukee. This is not a situation where you have a manager that hates all young players (Ken Macha, I'm looking in your general direction). There have been plenty of other guys that passed through AAA without incident - Axford, Green, Lucroy, etc.

 

On the other hand, we're heard stories about Gamel's work ethic from other players, coaches and fans. They might not all be 100% true, but it's getting to the point where we'te exactly taking about a small sample.

 

The only consistent, positive evaluation I've heard about Gamel is that he hits minor league pitching well.

[jerichoholicninja]

Don Money asked me to hold his coffee for him during Spring Training a few years ago and he's been my biggest supporter ever since!

 

But seriously, I did get to hold his coffee for him.

[dadofandrew]

Gamel will certainly play somewhere, as he can hit and can play any of the corner positions. He might just platoon, but as a LH hitter, that's fine. He's improved every year in AAA too, a sign he has not peaked yet. He still has plenty of value too, as his name came up this summer in the Thornton discussions. Gamel has been blocked in the easy to play spots, and may well be in his 2nd/3rd year had Braun/Hart/Fielder not existed.

 

The problem with Money is the same as Lopes...he does nothing to get guys to the next level, he just complains. After he left MIL, Davey was given all kinds of credit for the Phillies running game, and he was one of best basestealers to ever play the game. Why is Gindl not picking stuff up? Is he explaining stuff to him or just grumbling as he goes by. He doesn't even know what's wrong with McClendon, if it's velocity, control, or what, despite having access to a plethora of info? In his season ending chat, he blamed the lack of scoring on a "lack of team speed," saying guys could not score from 2B on many base hits, despite his team not having nearly as many slowish runners as the Crew. He doesn't seem to "get it," and is a world class grump.

 

What's that old saying, if he was married to Raquel Welsh, he'd complain about her cooking? In Don's case, he'd do it in the media, which makes him an old grump, and unprofessional, who doesn't seem to develop players, help them improve, or do much of anything except the bare minimum of what he's told. All the guys who lacked in defense improved after they got to the bigs, not under Money, who was a tremendous defensive infielder. It's almost like he's got Ted Williams, "I don't know, just hit" syndrome.

[CheezWizHed]

That's all fine and dandy, but the exact same thing could be said about Betancourt.

 

Why in blazes does YB get brought into a conversation about Money and Gamel??? YB hasn't been coached by Money. If he did coach him at AAA for 3 years without much improvement, then yes, he would probably rip YB also. RR is a different person in a different job than Money. And nowhere did I say RR shouldn't criticize YB.

 

If this was just a Money/Gamel personality issue, Gamel would have already been in the MLB level.

 

I kind of doubt it. He really needed most of this year to work at 1B in the minors.

 

You actually make my point. If Gamel's only problem was a personality issue, he would be our starting 3B. For the last two years. But instead, he needs another year to learn another position because he couldn't play his original position at the MLB level. And he was beat out by Casey McGehee, so its not like Money himself was at 3B...

 

For years, its been Macha ruined Gamel or Macha hates Gamel. That must be the only reason Gamel is at AAA. Well, RR wasn't impressed, either. Obviously, we know how Money feels. He must not have endeared himself to his teammates either (moving his locker outside). Everyone rubs someone that wrong way, but when you start to rub everyone the wrong way, then...

[ilikewisco]

If he could "not think, just hit" he would be up already. He may not have had a lot of opportunity at the MLB level, but if he was that advanced of hitter, he would have taken advantage and shown he belonged. I always hoped the maturity rumors were blown out of proportion, but it looks as though they are pretty accurate. I have no problem with Money saying what he thinks, as long as he's said these things to each player first. And in Gamel's case, confronted him and saw no improvement. The sooner Gamel realizes that to be a good major leaguer, you have to put in more work than the guy trying to take your place, the better off he'll be. And until he does that I doubt he sees time in Milwaukee. Natural talent only goes so far, and I don't think Gamel's talent alone is enough to give him a roster spot. Someday soon he needs to decide if he wants to be a good major leaguer, or a guy bouncing from team to team trying to be the 25th man. Just look at Felipe Lopez if you want a comp on wasted talent.

 

And if he did go into that spring training wanting a roster spot, he did show up late. Whether the report date was optional or not.

[kramnoj]

This may be one of the things that doesn't get mentioned because everybody knows it, but I just saw a piece that said that Gamel's last option was used this year. If for whatever reason he isn't on the major league roster next Opening Day, he's going to have to be traded or DFAed, and I don't see him slipping through. And if he's traded, I'm going to guess the number of teams that would take him without being able to option him is a somewhat small number, which could hurt his trade value.

[dadofandrew]

He'll be on an Opening Day roster, without a doubt. If he doesn't figure into the Brewers' plans at least as a reserve, they'll have no trouble getting equal value, though it is slightly lower now due to no options. He's a former top prospect who had a 900 OPS in AAA, a 1000 OPS versus RHP, and can play four spots, three of them probably at league average or above. At the very least, he'll fit in nicely on someone's bench.

[pogokat]

I think the biggest point to pick up here is that people really don't like gamel---really, really don't like him---and whether or not we think they are being fair, it's obvious Mat isn't going to have a future in milwaukee...If I was them, i'd not wait around for him either...he's gone...

 

Gindl's got a lot more to worry about than improving his small ball skills, namely an all-star playing both of corners in milwaukee

 

i like don money---i like this approach---i mean, this is the kind of stuff i wish we could find out and here it is...so, if you've always wondered why gamel's not in the bigs, here's your answer, everyone hates him and wishes he would lose wait, show up on time, be less dumb, and lose some weight, besides, quit whining...there ya have it!

[igor67]

It's worth noting to those trying to claim there is some sort of anti-manager fan issue at work, that Money never says completely positive things about a guy. Again that's bad people work. A couple of years ago the 'I just tell it like it is' schtick was novel and interesting now his on going constantly negative comments really paint a picture of a guy who has a major flaw in his own game.

[pebadger]

A player passes the minimum talent culling process in A-ball. A player learns how to play the game at a higher level in AA. He learns how to be a professional in AAA. If your organization has a strong minor league system, he learns at all these steps along the way what is most important to the culture of that organization. The smart ones use that knowledge to make the trip to the majors easier.

 

My take-away is that Gamel is having trouble figuring out what it means to really be a major league professional. Unless you're just outstanding and force your way into a lineup, it's about more than just being productive on the field (and even then you can't be a turd in the punchbowl). Gamel isn't the first guy that has struggled with this aspect of making the transition to the majors. People in all sorts of professions have intermediate goals they must meet to get where they want to go. Sometimes the really special people get to avoid punching those tickets. Problems arise when people who think they are special don't see eye-to-eye with the guy who is making them jump through the hoops anyway. When the player realizes he doesn't get to make that decision and then either a) jumps through the hoops or b) makes himself so good that jumping through the hoops becomes irrelevant, he will give himself a chance at the next level. If he doesn't he won't, and he won't get a whole lot of sympathy from all those who came before him who had to make the same tough transition.

 

This isn't to excuse the Brewers if they are treating Gamel unfairly. Honestly though, it's a pretty tough argument to make convincingly. There is a long-running pattern of evidence here that Gamel is more responsible for his status than is the organization. I'm sure it's been frustrating for him at times, but such is life on the way to the big leagues. There isn't a single non-superstar in the Brewers clubhouse that hasn't had to clear all those same hurdles. If you want to be treated like a superstar, be a superstar. Otherwise suck it up and earn your way onto the roster by doing what is asked of you. Focus on how people are trying to help you as opposed to how you perceive them as trying to hurt you.

 

On the outside looking in all this stuff may seem stupid, but it is what it is, and it matters. Taylor Green may have had more of an opening to get up with the club, but it also seems pretty apparent that he has done what he needs to do to satisfy management and his teammates that he is ready for the responsibility of being part of, and contributing to, a major league roster. It's not just about the success TG has had in his limited opportunities with the club, though that certainly helps. It's his approach to those opportunities that matters. What I'm taking away from the comments about Gamel is that there is some concern in the organization about how he has approached the opportunities he has been given, concern about how he has reacted to the evaluation of his performance in those opportunities and concern about his attitude toward earning more opportunities.

 

I don't know that all the comments needed to be made. On the other hand, it may well be that the Brewers are at the end of their rope with Gamel. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the coming Spring Training is, one way or the other, probably the end of the line for Gamel in the Brewers minor league system. Either he figures it out and makes a place for himself on the big club or he'll be somewhere else. I don't think any of what was said comes as a surprise to any other organization that is really paying attention. After this season Gamel's trade value is pretty much set. All that remains to be seen is whether Gamel wants to be a big league player for the Brewers or if he wants to prove to another organization the same things he hasn't yet proved to the Brewers.

[The Truth]

Mark Kotsay has a .660 OPS this year. Casey McGehee has a .649 OPS this year!

 

I would much prefer Mat Gamel, even if his personally was twice as immature as it supposedly is...

 

While Money may be correct about certain aspects of hitting that Gamel needs to improve upon, that doesn't take away from the fact that the Brewers chose to go with far worse options at the MLB level this season....

[jmeks23]

Gamel hasn't proved that he can slug or get on base at the MLB level so why would you risk the attitude problem for that?

 

I like Gamel but it's been time for him to put up or shut up for a while and he hasn't done it, small opportunities or not.

[igor67]

The evidence presented that Gamel has an attitude 'problem' is incredibly thin. Zambrano has an attitude problem. Ozzie Guillen has an attitude problem. Gamel has made a couple of modest mistakes that are actually documented, instead of repeated innuendo. If Gamel had an attitude problem we'd here some nice big fat quotes out of triple A, about how dissatisfied he is with the current arrangement. It behooves people to be a bit charitable in judging over the internet.

[Raw Biz]

Gamel hasn't proved that he can slug or get on base at the MLB level so why would you risk the attitude problem for that?

 

I like Gamel but it's been time for him to put up or shut up for a while and he hasn't done it, small opportunities or not.

If people want to rag on him for his so-called "attitude problems," fine. But can we stop saying that he hasn't proved himself in the majors. He hasn't gotten the chance. He got 44 total PAs (mostly PH) the past two years. In 09, his OPS was .760 as a 23-year-old in 148 PAs. So actually, if you want to use his small opportunities, I would say his 09 stats show that he can hit in the majors.

The attitude stuff I can kind of understand. But to say that he hasn't proved himself because of a .684 career OPS in 194 PAs over basically 3 years is like saying Brett Lawrie is already a HOFer because of his 1.018 OPS in 146 PAs.

[paul253]

I like Gamel but it's been time for him to put up or shut up for a while and he hasn't done it, small opportunities or not.

 

You say "small opportunities or not" like it's nothing. You can't put up if you haven't been given a chance to do so. He's never really had a position to play in Milwaukee but being DH for 5 games at a time doesn't amount to having an opportunity. Maybe he's been getting frustrated about having to spend parts of 4 seasons in Nashville, and when he finally does get called up he sits on the bench all the time. I don't know. I don't know anything about him, personality wise, but I think it's unfair for anyone to suggest he hasn't taken advantage of an opportunity when the opportunity has never really been there. In 2009 he had 128 at bats in Milwaukee. And while he only hit .242, a .338 OBP isn't that bad (by comparison Yuni's OBP is .269 right now and McGehee's is .292).

 

If Prince walks and Gamel goes into spring training as the every day first baseman, and then he hits .157 in spring training forcing the Brewers to replace him, then I'd say he didn't take advantage of his chance. But as of now, I am not willing to say that.

[jmeks23]

You all are entitled to your opinions, but there is a reason he has been rotting in the minors guys. And it's not because he's 'blocked'. What it truly is I don't know, only the Brewers do.

[MJLiverock]

The evidence presented that Gamel has an attitude 'problem' is incredibly thin. Zambrano has an attitude problem. Ozzie Guillen has an attitude problem. Gamel has made a couple of modest mistakes that are actually documented, instead of repeated innuendo. If Gamel had an attitude problem we'd here some nice big fat quotes out of triple A, about how dissatisfied he is with the current arrangement. It behooves people to be a bit charitable in judging over the internet.

Well compared to there being no evidence that he doesn't have an attitude problem, other than people who really are enamored with his minor league slash stats denying it, I'd probably err on the side that there is something to it. There is no reason for Money or anyone else in the organization past or present to make up negative stuff about Gamel. There isn't an upcoming contract negotiation. If anything, I would bet things have been held back in regards to opinions about him and this is just the stuff leaking out around the edges.

I'm not one who usually cares a bit about if a player's attitude is deemed poor, or teammates don't want to hang out with a player... as long as he produces, personalities really don't matter to me or to the ability to crush a fastball. But I do tend to believe in the old "where there is smoke there is fire" idiom.

If he is the starting 1B for the Brewers next year and hits well it will be brushed aside but if he comes up and struggles then more will be heard if there are work ethic or attitude issues, and what not surrounding the guy. Just because I want the guy to play well in a Brewer uniform doesn't mean I have to stick my fingers in my ears and refuse to believe the organization has some issues with him which are likely founded in a reason since they have everything to gain from him playing well and being the best he can be. Reading this thread makes a few posters seem overly defensive about Gamel, (just as a few seem a bit quick to write him off based on a few sporadic ML AB's).

 

[paul253]

Where would he have seen regular playing time the past three seasons? Not first base obviously with Prince playing every game. Not third base because up until this year McGehee was playing very well. Not outfield because on top of the fact that Gamel has never played outfield regularly, Braun was obviously a staple in left and Corey Hart was extended and playing well in right. So you say he wasn't "blocked", but every position he could have played was being played by someone who was having successful years. That's the very definition of blocked.

 

We'll see next year though. With Prince leaving and Gamel hitting like .330 in AAA, there is no reason for Milwaukee to sign a first basemen. If they do, you'll know that it's because they have no faith in Gamel.

[Raw Biz]

You all are entitled to your opinions, but there is a reason he has been rotting in the minors guys. And it's not because he's 'blocked'. What it truly is I don't know, only the Brewers do.

The only time he wasn't "blocked" was in 09, when he hurt himself. You could argue that it was his fault that he hurt himself but injuries happen. After that, McGehee had a choke-hold on the position and hasn't let go since. And honestly, at this point, I would probably have an attitude problem as well if I did everything Gamel has in 4 years at AAA and I still haven't been called up. It might be a chicken/egg thing since Gamel is pissed because he hasn't been called up and the Brewers haven't called him up because Gamel has an attitude.

[ilikewisco]

Just like you can't say he definitely couldn't succeed at the MLB level right now based on the small sample there. You can't say his AAA numbers automatically transfer favorably to the majors. He's been playing in a league where offense is inflated, and like everyone has said, he's spent parts of four years there. So he should dominate. His numbers obviously warrant a call up, but they aren't so great to overlook his flaws. And whether we believe his flaws are detrimental to the team or not, the organization does, and that's all that matters.

 

To me he seems lazy and acts like he's owed something. That is just my impression after following this whole fiasco, but showing up late and not being willing to listen to coaching (don't know if this is true, just seems to be the case) are not traits I really want on the Brewers. The best players in the league put in the work, and players with all star talent but poor work ethics don't usually amount to much. If he is unwilling to put in the work to make the show, what makes you think he will once he gets there. If the Brewers were high on him, he would have been called up in September, if not sooner. Again, its all heresay, but like someone else mentioned, where there's smoke, there is usually fire. I hope he can change these impressions, but if he doesn't, I don't mind if he's not in the long term plans. Or maybe he is just dumb as hell.

[RockCoCougars]

Escobar was blocked, but he was brought up in 2009 and rarely saw the bench last year despite playing poorly for most of the year. If Prince is gone, I would rather see Gamel get an opportunity at first than some free agent retread.

[nate82]

Escobar was blocked, but he was brought up in 2009 and rarely saw the bench last year despite playing poorly for most of the year. If Prince is gone, I would rather see Gamel get an opportunity at first than some free agent retread.

This is kind of getting off topic but the best option for next year would be to bring in Willy Mo Pena or another right handed batter to platoon with Gamel at 1B. Otherwise the better option would be to trade Gamel for a SS or another position of need.