Mark Kotsay in the Clutch

[Thurston Fluff]

Since you care, read post #44 this thread.

 

I missed that one the first time around sorry. I'm glad someone tried. It isn't what I was looking for but it does help. I'm trying to find a baseline so we can see what we should expect. Keep in mind Melvin tried to get at least one of those better guys but he chose to sing with another team.

 

What I am saying is that if I thought Kotsay was the best option within our system I would have no problem with him. As it is we probably have 3 guys who have better talent it AAA right now who could be had for nothing.

 

Gamel has a career 684 OPS in limited time and Green isn't even as far along as Gamel at this point? Gamel's problem when he did come up was lack of consistent playing time. He has not done well when given limited playing time. It also wouldn't come without cost. Career development and arby clocks are something. Unless there is a clear cut advantage why not let them develop at no cost?

[monty57]

I don't think we'll see him start much going forward - take away the injuries and there is a good chance he wouldn't even be at 20 at this point.

Braun asked for his last day off, and just a guess, but he'll probably get a day off every ten games or so. Hart will need some days off here and there. For some unknown reason, Kotsay will get at least one more start in CF. I'd say, Kotsay will get around 8-10 more starts over the remainder of the season - this is assuming no one gets injured, and doesn't take into consideration that we may be playing bench players more if we clinch early.

 

 

[monty57]

Should I throw another wrench in here... If we were to make the World Series, who would be our DH? If you don't like the thought of Kotsay getting a couple of starts in the most important games the Brewers will play in 30 years, then you may want to hope Doug brings up a better bat by Aug 31.

[DougJones43]

I don't think we'll see him start much going forward - take away the injuries and there is a good chance he wouldn't even be at 20 at this point.

There's going to be injuries every season though, which is why you'd like your backups to be at least capable starters when needed. If he were truly always the 25th man on the roster being used in a pinch hitting role, I really wouldn't have a problem with him.

 

The problem was as soon as we had injuries in the outfield, he became our 4th OF which meant he was going to get a lot of starts -- some of them inconceivably in CF. The outfielders who were brought up to fill in during injuries (and could actually play CF) should have immediately gone ahead of Kotsay on the depth chart in terms of getting starts, but Roenicke apparently couldn't be trusted to make that happen.

[logan82]

Gamel has a career 684 OPS in limited time and Green isn't even as far along as Gamel at this point? Gamel's problem when he did come up was lack of consistent playing time. He has not done well when given limited playing time. It also wouldn't come without cost. Career development and arby clocks are something. Unless there is a clear cut advantage why not let them develop at no cost?

 

Green and Gamel's arby clock really shouldn't come into play unless the plan is to leave them down for most of next year. Given McGehee's play this year and the likely departure of Fielder next year I think there is a good chance both will be with the big club out of Spring Training next year. Why field an inferior team if we don't have to?

[DuWayne Steurer]

The Brewers are 73-51. This is an absolute go for it year. If starting someone's clock a month and a half early is the best decision for winning a game this year when needed, that's what they should do.

 

There's times to be cautious about this kind of stuff.

 

You see teams like the Royals burn service time on 21 and 22 year old guys when they're 22 games below .500, and it's easy to see why they keep falling behind.

 

Washington bringing up Strasberg way before they were ready to contend.........and so on.

 

Gamel is 25, and Green is 24. Even if they qualified as Super 2's (which they won't), they're under team control until they're 31 and 30, respectively. If the team truly believes either or both of these guys gives them a chance to win even one more game than someone they'd replace, service time should be the last consideration right now.

[Funketown]

Should I throw another wrench in here... If we were to make the World Series, who would be our DH? If you don't like the thought of Kotsay getting a couple of starts in the most important games the Brewers will play in 30 years, then you may want to hope Doug brings up a better bat by Aug 31.

Now we're talking!

 

With Weeks back, I don't think Kotsay will be the best option for a DH even if Green or Gamel is called up. I'd rather see something like Yuni or Braun moved to DH while Jerry Hairston Jr. takes their place. During Kottaras' starts, Lucroy can DH. With a healthy team and both JHJ and Carlos Gomez on the roster, I do wonder what will happen to Kotsay for the playoffs. There should be a spot for him, and I honestly don't have a huge problem with that so long as he is actually treated like the 25th man on the roster.

[Ayt]

As much as I wanted green up earlier this year, and still do, I wouldn't want either Green or Gamel in that role over Kotsay. I don't care if his OPS was .150 over the past 4 years. He's delivering when called upon THIS year, and that's all that matters. You mention what history shows us. THAT'S what history shows us. A player is in the right situation at the right time, and it just works. Stats may say it isn't supposed to happen, it just does.

But he's not delivering this year when called upon.

Should I throw another wrench in here... If we were to make the World Series, who would be our DH? If you don't like the thought of Kotsay getting a couple of starts in the most important games the Brewers will play in 30 years, then you may want to hope Doug brings up a better bat by Aug 31.

Terrifying.

[trwi7]

If we were to make the World Series, who would be our DH?

Tony Gwynn Jr.

[Thurston Fluff]

Green and Gamel's arby clock really shouldn't come into play unless the plan is to leave them down for most of next year. Given McGehee's play this year and the likely departure of Fielder next year I think there is a good chance both will be with the big club out of Spring Training next year. Why field an inferior team if we don't have to?

 

You keep saying Kotsay is inferior to Gamel and Green. They very well may be superior talents. They may end up having superior careers. They may even be superior regular players this season. That is not what they would be doing here now. There is no evidence that shows they are superior bench players. That is a specific role that by and large players, managers and GM's agree is the toughest role in baseball. The only evidence is Gamel's production when playing part time. That evidence doesn't support your claim.

 

The Brewers are 73-51. This is an absolute go for it year. If starting someone's clock a month and a half early is the best decision for winning a game this year when needed, that's what they should do.

 

Absolutely correct. I have no problem starting an the clock early is if there is an obvious upgrade and that upgrade is needed. Neither of those two scenarios are true. All it would do is start it early. Probably not a problem but considering we don't know what the future holds why make a lateral mover just to make a move? Not to nit pick too much but I disagree with absolute go for it year concept. To me that means this year and only this year. We are pretty set for next year as well.

[Raw Biz]

Green and Gamel's arby clock really shouldn't come into play unless the plan is to leave them down for most of next year. Given McGehee's play this year and the likely departure of Fielder next year I think there is a good chance both will be with the big club out of Spring Training next year. Why field an inferior team if we don't have to?

 

You keep saying Kotsay is inferior to Gamel and Green. They very well may be superior talents. They may end up having superior careers. They may even be superior regular players this season. That is not what they would be doing here now. There is no evidence that shows they are superior bench players. That is a specific role that by and large players, managers and GM's agree is the toughest role in baseball. The only evidence is Gamel's production when playing part time. That evidence doesn't support your claim.

There's no evidence that shows they aren't either. They really haven't been given much of a chance (I'm not counting Gamel's 27 PA this year) outside of 2009 for Gamel, in which he did a pretty good job. The point is, Gamel/Green are superior talents (like you say they very well may be). The question that should be asked is "does the difficulty of pinch-hitting outweigh the talent difference between Kotsay and Gamel/Green?" I don't think so.

You are also acting like Gamel was completely worthless in his few major league stints. He had 27 PA this year and OPS .302. First, obviously a small sample size. Second, I remember his first couple of games up he hit some of the hardest balls I've seen this year, they just didn't happen to find holes. He then had 17 PA last year which again, way too small to determine anything of value. Finally, he had 148 PA in 2009, in which he OPSed .760 when he was 23. That's .100 higher than Kotsay this year. So while there have been small sample sizes each year, the biggest sample size actually shows he's had some success. And while he may have only been 3 for 20 as a PH in 2009, he was 23 and I think he would be able to outperform that number now (considering his overall numbers in the minors have improved each year since then).

 

[jjfanec]

Big RBI walk in todays game. It is probably irrational but I have a ton of confidence with Kotsay up and runners in scoring position.

[1992casey]

I feel best when Lucroy pinch hits. I'd say that in today's ninth inning, we saw pretty much equal opportunity cluchness among the players.

[jjfanec]

I feel best when Lucroy pinch hits. I'd say that in today's ninth inning, we saw pretty much equal opportunity cluchness among the players.

I agree. I love Lucroy's approach. Looks so collected up there. Outside of Braun's at bat that 9th inning had a lot of solid at bats