Jim Thome: tip of the hatâ?¦ Latest: Hits 600th HR; Traded to Indians

[LouisEly]

If there is a way to quietly approach 600 career home runs and be 8th all-time in career home runs, Jim Thome has found it. Playing for small market teams for most of his career including the last two probably has much to do with it, but I think the bigger issue is that the company he kept in the modern era has greatly diminished the significance of achieving the 500 and even 600 HR plateaus.

 

When you look at those who played during Thome's time who are on the career HR list, it's easy to be skeptical of the achievement:

 

1) Bonds - 762

5) Ken Griffey, Jr. - 630

6) Alex Rodriguez - 626

7) Sammy Sosa - 609

10) Mark McGwire - 583

12) Rafael Palmiero - 569

14) Manny Ramirez - 555

 

With that list, outside of KGJ, how could one not be skeptical? Everyone outside of Griffey has been tainted in some way. But I think Thome's numbers are legit, and I think he is one of the five best hitters of the modern era. Quiz - no peeking - for someone with 600 career HRs, how many seasons has Thome hit more than 50? Considering he wasn't a full time starter until the middle of his age 23 season, he had as many HRs before the age of 31 as he did after the age of 31. If you look at the pattern of his HRs by year/age, it's funny how it closely resembles this guy.

 

Power wasn't his only asset, as three times he led the league in walks and is 9th all-time in career walks. He had a propensity to strike out too, but lifetime OPS ranks 17th in history. His willingness to talk walks reflects the unselfish attitude he has approached the game with.

 

I have to say that my analysis is not truly unbiased, as Thome was one of my favorite players on a good young Cleveland team that was my second team throughout the 90s when the Brewers had little to cheer about. But it would be a shame if the sins of his contemporaries and their tarnished images rub off on Thome and the perception of his career accomplishments and how that plays out when he is finally eligible for Cooperstown. I could be wrong - it's always possible that he could have had help. The consistency of his career numbers, peaking at age 31, with as many HRs from age 23-30 as from age 32-40, leads me to believe he was legit. He has never been on any "list", he has never been linked to any trainers or doctors, and never has had any suspect trips to any foreign countries (as far as I know). But one of the reasons he has been a favorite is because he has gone about his business quietly; it's never been about him or the money or the spotlight. He just shuts up and plays the game.

 

If there is justice in baseball, it would be for Thome to hit 12 more home runs this year so he finishes with more career HRs than Sammy Sosa; in the unlikely event that happens, perhaps he will be picked up for one more year by someone in need of a LH DH. His .843 OPS this year (and 1.039 last year) suggest he still has value. But he doesn't seem like the type who would try to hand on too long to pad his career stats. He's never won a World Series, so maybe that will bring him back for one last hurrah.

 

I tip my hat to you, Jim Thome, for not only what you have accomplished but how you have accomplished it. If others were like you, baseball would be the greatest game on earth.

[Baldkin]

Guys who hit their 500th between 1960 and 1971:

 

Aaron

Mays

Robinson

Killebrew

Mantle

Williams

Banks

Mathews

 

No skepticism was ever brought on those guys. They were just great. Its a gosh darned shame Bagwell wasn't a first ballot HOFer.

 

I love Thome, and cannot stop watching his 490 foot HR. The guy can still hit, its more a question if his body can hold up another season.

[1992casey]

Until Dave Kingman, everyone with 400 homers made the Hall. I hope that Thome is given his due respect and is voted in without question.

[TooLiveBrew]

Even though he's never been caught or anything, Thome is always a guy I assumed was juicing.

[brettac1]

I think you're better off to assume pretty much everyone was juicing.

[gregmag]

Okay, this is a problem. We need a way to think through the steroid issue historically, because unless everyone, literally, was juicing, there's no path of least resistance. In other words, tarring guys who put up clean numbers during this era is every bit as unjust as lauding guys who put up tainted numbers. We also need to decide whether we care about gradations of juicing. Does it matter if somebody juiced for a long time rather than briefly? Does it matter if somebody used a substance that wasn't banned or illegal but still inflated his numbers? What's our required standard of proof for any of this?

 

LouisEly suggests that consistency, as opposed to major power spikes, is a strong indicator of clean power. That makes a lot of sense to me, and/but it's something we can test by looking at guys who we know did and did not juice. Also, can we assume guys are no longer juicing? If so, that speaks well for Thome, because it means he's hitting right now for remarkable "clean power" at an age when most hitters can't see the ball any more. That would at least make a case for the legitimacy of his power as a younger hitter.

 

Maybe baseball needs a truth and reconciliation commission. Give everybody immunity from legal prosecution -- I'm speaking in big generalities here; it would be complicated -- and gather evidence on whatever basis maximized reliability and openness. If it works for genocide (see, e.g., post-Apartheid South Africa), why not for cheating? The problem was big and broad enough that I don't think the immunity would incentivize future cheating (whatever form future cheating might take), and frankly I care more about a clear accounting of baseball history than about watching a bunch of ex-players plea bargain to fines. The judgment of history will punish the guilty, and I want the best information we can get about the identities of the guilty -- and the innocent.

[joepepsi]

I expect the Twins will offer Thome another one year deal for 2012. They have nothing to lose and will still be deficient on offense.

 

I'm confident he's a first ballot HOF'er. He played 7 seasons in a row in big markets: Philly, Chicago, and LA. Cleveland is hardly a small market, and while he was at his peak they won 6 division titles in 7 years with one of the highest payrolls in the game. It's only been the last 7-9 years they redefined themselves as "small market".

 

I think baseball and its fans need to first answer whether steroid use is really cheating, before we can come to terms with this era. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for years steroid use wasn't against the rules in baseball. The first steps at testing were a joke. Were players doping in the early years really cheating if it wasn't against the rules?

 

Where is the line drawn when building muscle, taking supplements, having surgical procedures, taking drugs to recover faster from injury becomes cheating? Do players need to be Christian Scientists in order for their numbers to be legitimate? Shouldn't a player be able to take supplements to increase body mass, just like any other person? Shouldn't a player be able to take a steroid to recover from injury just like any body else? What about HGH? Isn't that a legitimate medical treatment?

 

And in the future, when it is illegal to have a surgical procedure that rebuilds your body and lets you continue to play several more seasons? TJ surgery is OK, but what about the surgery Colon had? Why can't you take steroids or HGH to rehabilitate tissue and bone either after surgery or simply to repair physical deterioration?

 

Modern medicine is able to rebuild and strengthen the body. It will only get better at this. Why can't modern athletes take advantage of the science? It's possible in 20 years people will look back at the popular reaction to the "steroid era" as hysterical and non-sensical.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think you're better off to assume pretty much everyone was juicing.

Agreed. Which makes the statistical accomplishments valid imo, but only really against players from the same (roughly) era.

 

I actually shared LouisEly's affinity for those early '90s Indians teams, & also like him, I loved Thome. I even remember when he was a "third baseman"

[Funketown]

Thome's career ranks in a few categories:

 

OPS: 17th

oWAR: 45th

SLG: 20th

OBP: 50th

HR: 8th

RBI: 27th

TB: 40th

OPS+: 40th

 

He just about has to be one of the 50 greatest hitters of all time. He's a great player, and a tip of the cap is much deserved.

[Invader3K]

If he isn't a first ballot Hall of Famer at this point, the BWAA needs to be blown up.

[DocLuna7]

I think you're better off to assume pretty much everyone was juicing.

Agreed. Which makes the statistical accomplishments valid imo, but only really against players from the same (roughly) era.

 

I actually shared LouisEly's affinity for those early '90s Indians teams, & also like him, I loved Thome. I even remember when he was a "third baseman"

 

I disagree, I don't think that "everyone" from the era needs to be labled a cheater automatically. I have no evidence, but do not think that Thome was a juicer. I would be more likely to go with the original poster and say that Thome was one of the clean one's of the era.

[JJHardy7]

I like Thome. I hope he was clean, but not sure the information below compels that:

 

The consistency of his career numbers, peaking at age 31, with as many HRs from age 23-30 as from age 32-40

 

Wouldn't this indicate he was juicing? I get the consistent thing...my mind is warped regarding steroids and to me (I don't think Thome juiced) the statement above isn't a good thing in that regard.

[brettac1]

I think you're better off to assume pretty much everyone was juicing.

Agreed. Which makes the statistical accomplishments valid imo, but only really against players from the same (roughly) era.

 

I actually shared LouisEly's affinity for those early '90s Indians teams, & also like him, I loved Thome. I even remember when he was a "third baseman"

 

I disagree, I don't think that "everyone" from the era needs to be labled a cheater automatically. I have no evidence, but do not think that Thome was a juicer. I would be more likely to go with the original poster and say that Thome was one of the clean one's of the era.

I didn't mean to label him as a cheater. I don't care who took steroids, personally, and I don't view them as the greatest evil in the history of the game. Pitchers and hitters both used the stuff, and I think the playing field was pretty even during the "steroid era".

[joepepsi]

I like Thome. I hope he was clean, but not sure the information below compels that:

 

The consistency of his career numbers, peaking at age 31, with as many HRs from age 23-30 as from age 32-40

 

Wouldn't this indicate he was juicing? I get the consistent thing...my mind is warped regarding steroids and to me (I don't think Thome juiced) the statement above isn't a good thing in that regard.

His career OPS through his age 31 season was .982. OPS since then: .933. So he did decline; but he still remained one of the best hitters in the game.

[LouisEly]

Even though he's never been caught or anything, Thome is always a guy I assumed was juicing.

Like I mentioned in the original post, it's easy to make that assumption when the people you are compared to are Bonds, A-Rod, Sosa, McGwire, and Ramirez. But we also have to assume that every generation has a couple of players that are going to be among the all-time greats. Every generation is going to have a couple of players who are going to hit 30-40 home runs a year for 15 years. Thome and Griffey are likely those from this generation, and you could probably add Bonds to that list as he likely would have hit 500 career HR naturally and maybe even Frank Thomas too. Certainly some pitchers were juicing too, and the harder the ball is thrown the farther it will be hit - that's just physics.

 

You have to make some assumption that more HRs are hit today than in the past because weight lifting and strength training weren't embraced until the last 20-30 years. Previously it was thought that weight training would be detrimental and increase the chance for injury in baseball; maybe it has some validity to the injury factor, but it definitely increases strength and thus HRs.

[TooLiveBrew]

I didn't mean to label him as a cheater. I don't care who took steroids, personally, and I don't view them as the greatest evil in the history of the game. Pitchers and hitters both used the stuff, and I think the playing field was pretty even during the "steroid era".

Same for me, except that I do care that guys took PEDs. I just don't think you can reliably discern who did & who didn't in most cases.

[MNBrew]

I've said this before, but I think it's poorly selective when HOF members and the baseball media get haughty about steroid users potentially getting into the HOF, but I've never read anywhere besides my own writing about how Gaylord Perry did as much or more -- not to mention quite blatantly, and for years upon years -- to deceive opponents as any "juicer," but no one ever questions his rightful place in the HOF.

 

Then there's the whole issue of the pervasive use of "greenies" and other little uppers players took for decades. . . .

 

It's not that I think steroid or PED use is fine. It's just the latest in a long line of things players have used either with the hope of faster recovery, a little energy boost, or improved performance. That all of a sudden there's this line of piety drawn with steroids on one side and everything else previous to that tacitly excused on the other side of it seems to me to be a current-media-influenced phenomenon and a flat-out screwy basis for making any of these decisions.

 

....And on the topic of this thread, it's been documented many times in the local papers here in the Cities how Thome was clean while other guys weren't. There's really little way players could get away with steroids or PEDs these days, yet Thome hit a jaw-dropping 2nd-deck-in-right-center HR at Target Field in the past month (478 ft. I believe, and he turns 41 in 2.5 weeks), and last fall at age 40 hit one HR off almost the top of the flagpole in RF and nearly hit the same flagpole again within days of that mammoth shot. . . . . Look, the guy's clean and simply has amazing power.

[TooLiveBrew]

Jason Giambi is clean by whatever testing MLB is using now, but you can't argue that steroids didn't help to build him up to the frame he has now. As long as you keep working it out, it's not going to go away. I'm not saying I know whether Thome used PEDs or not, but the "he's clean now" argument doesn't do much. Giambi is still able to crush the ball as well.

[MNBrew]

The point that's been perfectly clear ever since Thome came to the Twins is that with Thome, it's not just "he's clean now," but rather "he's always been clean."

 

The guy's a class act.

[joepepsi]

You have to make some assumption that more HRs are hit today than in the past because weight lifting and strength training weren't embraced until the last 20-30 years. Previously it was thought that weight training would be detrimental and increase the chance for injury in baseball; maybe it has some validity to the injury factor, but it definitely increases strength and thus HRs.

Good points all. Add in that hitters' approaches are different than years ago. They aren't up there looking to make contact; they are swinging for the fences, fouling off pitches they don't like, striking out more and willing to take more walks. Also, there are many more bad pitchers in the league than there were in the 60's or even a generation ago. More teams in MLB +y more relievers per team+fewer innings pitched by the best pitchers=more bad pitching.

[SenatorShriv]

Wow - reading this thread gave me a new found appreciation for Thome's career. Honestly I've never paid much attention to him and had no idea that his career stats were hitting such lofty numbers. Clearly a first ballot Hall of Famer.

[jjkoestler]

Congrats, Mr. Thome.

[MNBrew]

LINK to Kurkjian spot on Thome. Worth the quick view & the read. The term he uses in the video clip describing Thome is "honor," which sums him up SO well.

 

Congrats, Mr. Thome!

[Tbadder]

One of the Classiest Friendliest guys imaginable. Hurray!!!!!

[Schlitz001]

Not to take away anything from Thome, but does it bother anyone else that some analysts and commentators are so quick to dismiss steroid use with Thome? I know that there is no hard evidence that he used them, but some people act like that in itself is concrete proof that he didn't use them. His biggest power years come from 1998 - 2008 in the heart of the steroid era. If you watched Kurkjian's piece or take a look at his rookie card, you can see how much bigger he became over the course of his career, especially in his Philadelphia years.

 

I really like Thome as a player and a person and think that he deserves to be in the HoF, but I don't think anyone playing in the steroid era should be completely free of suspicion.