Toronto calls up Lawrie

[Mass Haas]

John Sickels article

Many comments worth reading -- happy for Jays' fans.

[jmeks23]

I know Lawrie is good, we all knew he was. I think everyone cringed a little bit when the Marcum deal was made, but at the end of the day this pennant chase would not be possible without him.

 

However, did I miss the Lawrie in the HoF ceremony this year? I could've sworn his presence was absent, either that or it was a quick speech. Seriously though, Jays fans, and angry Brewers fans, stop proclaiming this guy as the second coming. Maybe he will make the HoF but not after 130 PA's. Also, reading those Jay's fans comments saying he's going to win gold gloves and he's the best defensive 3B they've ever had (they just had Scott Rolen two years ago) is just ridiculous. Again, maybe he will win a gold glove some day, but my goodness he's barely played two months worth of games.

 

Let's just not get too far ahead of ourselves with Lawrie.

[Ennder]

There are hundreds of prospects that got off to great starts and failed, no reason to assume Lawrie isn't one of them yet. Lind is a great Toronto example of one who had great success and fell flat on his face after his big year. Lawrie will likely be a really good hitter but no reason to call him another Braun/Fielder just yet.

[homer]

Lawrie was also a malcontent that the Brewers really couldn't stand. He needed a change of atmosphere.

[Never Outhustled]

Lawrie was also a malcontent that the Brewers really couldn't stand. He needed a change of atmosphere.

 

 

 

Wow. That couldn't be more devoid of fact. Nothing like making things up to support a weak argument. Pretty unfair to the player too.

[homer]

Lawrie was also a malcontent that the Brewers really couldn't stand. He needed a change of atmosphere.

 

 

 

Wow. That couldn't be more devoid of fact. Nothing like making things up to support a weak argument. Pretty unfair to the player too.

It's been well documented he had attitude issues. Sorry this contradicts your personal scouting report:

 

From John Sickels:

Attitude: This is the big knock on Lawrie and one of the reasons (it is said) that the Brewers were willing to trade him.

 

http://www.minorleaguebal...rie-3b-toronto-blue-jays

 

 

"The one thing though that has to raise red flags for us Toronto fans is

the Brewers likely completely gave up on Lawrie due to attitude issues,

the main one being that he refused an assignment to the fall league

which seems completely irrational given he is still learning a new

position"

 

http://www.bluejaysmix.co...de-for-brett-lawrie.html

 

 

All I'm saying is he needed a change of scenery. This does not detract from his ability only that this was one additional reason the Brewers had to trade him. Hope he does well for Toronto.

[DuWayne Steurer]

It's been well documented he had attitude issues. Sorry this contradicts your personal scouting report:

 

From John Sickels:

Attitude: This is the big knock on Lawrie and one of the reasons (it is said) that the Brewers were willing to trade him.

 

http://www.minorleaguebal...rie-3b-toronto-blue-jays

 

 

"The one thing though that has to raise red flags for us Toronto fans is

the Brewers likely completely gave up on Lawrie due to attitude issues,

the main one being that he refused an assignment to the fall league

which seems completely irrational given he is still learning a new

position"

 

http://www.bluejaysmix.co...de-for-brett-lawrie.html

 

 

All I'm saying is he needed a change of scenery. This does not detract from his ability only that this was one additional reason the Brewers had to trade him. Hope he does well for Toronto.

One of those is a fan blog, and in the other one, Sickles admitted that the attitude issues were hearsay only.

 

Heck, I'm not even saying he doesn't have attitude issues, but saying that Lawrie was a 'malcontent that the Brewers couldn't stand' sounds more like a guess/opinion than anything else.

[homer]

Sickels says it was one of the reason the Brewers got rid of him (more or less). That's all I'm saying. Google "Lawrie attitude" and you'll find dozens of references. It didn't just spring up from nowhere. Rumors were all over that he had a fight in the Huntsville clubhouse, that he was benched on more than one occasion in Appleton for his attitude, etc.

 

From Haudricourt:

 

"I've heard Lawrie wasn't happy that he didn't get a September call-up by

the Brewers, and he did later back out of an assignment to the Arizona

Fall League. There just seems to be something amiss in his relationship

with the Brewers, and perhaps that was one of the reasons they were

willing to trade him to the Blue Jays for Marcum."

 

Yes, he's speculating but there's just too much evidence out there to suggest he did not have attitude issues.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Sickels says it was one of the reason the Brewers got rid of him (more or less). That's all I'm saying. Google "Lawrie attitude" and you'll find dozens of references. It didn't just spring up from nowhere. Rumors were all over that he had a fight in the Huntsville clubhouse, that he was benched on more than one occasion in Appleton for his attitude, etc.

 

From Haudricourt:

 

"I've heard Lawrie wasn't happy that he didn't get a September call-up by

the Brewers, and he did later back out of an assignment to the Arizona

Fall League. There just seems to be something amiss in his relationship

with the Brewers, and perhaps that was one of the reasons they were

willing to trade him to the Blue Jays for Marcum."

 

Yes, he's speculating but there's just too much evidence out there to suggest he did not have attitude issues.

I didn't question his attitude issues. I questioned whether or not he was a malcontent that the Brewers couldn't stand. That's fairly strong wording, regardless of whether or not there's anecdotal evidence to back it up.

[homer]

True, maybe worded a bit strongly but if the reason you trade a guy is because of his attitude then he's got to have some kind of attitude. Especially with the kind of bat Lawrie had.

 

And X said my statement was devoid of all fact which it clearly was not.

[kramnoj]

And X said my statement was devoid of all fact which it clearly was not.

 

How is that clear? How many well-documented sources do you have that clearly state that the Brewers couldn't stand Lawrie? There is only speculation.

 

But clearly the Brewers don't trade someone away just because of attitude issues. Prince has got into altercations and he hasn't been traded. Melvin wasn't happy when Braun said stuff about improving the starting pitching and he was extended.

[Never Outhustled]

And X said my statement was devoid of all fact which it clearly was not.

 

How is that clear? How many well-documented sources do you have that clearly state that the Brewers couldn't stand Lawrie? There is only speculation.

 

But clearly the Brewers don't trade someone away just because of attitude issues. Prince has got into altercations and he hasn't been traded. Melvin wasn't happy when Braun said stuff about improving the starting pitching and he was extended.

 

 

Exactly. I wasn't disputing his attitude, I reported concerns with that years ago, before it became a hot topic. I simply disagreed with Homers heresay of the Brewers opinion.

[homer]

Circumstantial evidence is still evidence. Where there's smoke there's fire.

[JohnBriggs12]

Lawrie was traded because he brought back a quality arm the Brewers desperately needed. I don't think any opinion, positive or negative regarding his character played any role whatsoever.

 

The real burning question is had the Greinke deal happened first, would the Brewers have even made the Lawrie for Marcum deal? I'm not so sure they would have. Remember Melvin was wooing Pavano before the opportunity to deal for Greinke presented itself. I think had he gotten Greinke (a bigger fish than Marcum) first, he would have preferred to add the second arm without giving up another top prospect.

[The Heartbreak Yid]

From an outsiders opinion, this was clearly a win now move and won't be able to be fully judged until it's in the rearview.

 

Sure, if Melvin knew he could get Greinke, he might not have traded Lawrie for Marcum.

 

The problem with the way this move will be viewed in the future is the Brewers next 2 years, and not as much either players performance. Say Lawrie becomes a legit superstar, and Marcum gives you another great year and then moves on. If the Brewers win a World Series out of it, I'm assuming it will then be considered a win? However, say the Brewers go the same route in the playoffs as the -'07-'08 Cubs/'08 Brewers/'09 Cards/'10 Reds. Lawrie becomes a star, Marcum has a solid 2012, and moves on. Is the trade then considered a failure? Again, in both scenerios, Lawrie and Marcum give their teams what was expected of them, but either way, the trade will likely be judged by The Brewers '11-'12 seasons.

[chuckiehacks]

The real burning question is had the Greinke deal happened first, would the Brewers have even made the Lawrie for Marcum deal?

Had the Greinke deal happened first, Lawrie probably would have been part of it.

[kramnoj]

Circumstantial evidence is still evidence. Where there's smoke there's fire.

Circumstantial evidence does not equal well documented evidence. And even if Lawrie's attitude had some part in him being traded, it doesn't mean he was a malcontent, and it doesn't mean the Brewers couldn't stand him.

[GAME05]

recently read an interesting article on CBS about Lawrie that i'll have to dig up later. it noted the small handful of players who had put up similar numbers as amazing as Lawrie's in their first month of pro ball. of the five or six players, the majority were either really good players or superstars, but one of those players was also Jeff Francoeur.

 

and who knows how the attitude will play out in time, too. maybe it'll get better or maybe he'll turn into Milton Bradley. Bradley was a heck of an offensive player, too, but nobody was clamoring to have him on our team, either.

[TooLiveBrew]

of the five or six players, the majority were either really good players or superstars, but one of those players was also Jeff Francoeur.

 

I understand when people are skeptical of young players translating their games to MLB. But when a talent like Lawrie puts up numbers like he has in his debut, I'll borrow from Homer (in a different sense) & say where there's smoke, there's fire. This guy can hit, and every once in a while, that guy that OPSes like 1,000.000 in his first taste of pitching is the real deal. Lawrie is the real deal imo.

[NievesNoNO]

Lawrie certainly appears to be the real deal. I hope he does well with Toronto. There seem to a few negative reports regarding his attitude, but there have been plenty of players who border on cockiness/arrogance and have done just fine. If you can play attitude will be secondary. Sometimes people forget the age of these players as well and how much others have basically bowed down to them their whole life because of their athletic ability.

 

I still like the trade from both sides. Without Marcum the Brewers are not where they are right now and probably would have a very slim chance at a playoff series win. With him, I think they can match every team except the Phillies. Even against the Phillies I'd give them a punchers chance with Greinke, Marcum, and Yo.

[jmeks23]

kramnoj, you say all the negative reports are speculation. However all your positive opinions are speculation. It is odd that during his time with the Brewers there were no positive reports of his attitude, only negative. Either way it's a moot point, he's gone forever.

 

As far as Heartbreak's viewpoint, the one scenario you didn't mention is if Lawrie doesn't become a superstar.

 

I said it earlier in the thread, we all liked his bat and he appears to be off to a great start to a career, but he hasn't proved squat yet. Pitchers will adjust, and he will have to as well. He hasn't even played half a season yet, let's not crown the guy yet.

[kramnoj]

kramnoj, you say all the negative reports are speculation. However all your positive opinions are speculation.

 

I was addressing homer, who mentioned "well-documented" and tried to defend himself by saying he was clearly right in his statement that Lawrie had been traded away because the Brewers "couldn't stand him". I don't see any value in such baseless hyperbole. Frankly, its exaggeration to the point of just being made up.

[jjfanec]

Lawrie has been scuffling a bit lately. He actually got pulled from today's game (not sure if it was injury looks to be performance). He had 2 errors and is 2 for his last 17. Small sample (his whole MLB career is thought) but teams could be figuring him out a bit. His OPS is still unreal for a rook but his BA is not close to falling under .300 and he has only hit .268 in Sept with an OPS of .936.

 

He will probably be a stud but lets acknowledge some things that may show he shouldnt be ushered right into the hall of fame and lets give MLB pitcher time to figure him out if they can

[TooLiveBrew]

Only a .936 OPS so far this month ... what a bum

 

 

[brettac1]

there have been plenty of players who border on cockiness/arrogance and have done just fine.

 

Ryan Braun, for example.