Disappointed in Brewers Deadline Moves

[pebadger]

The Brewers have fewer than 10 starts by guys other than Betancourt so far this season. I think it's a pretty safe bet that, barring injury, Harston gets fewer than 10 starts at SS. It's probbly a good bet the Hairston + everyone not named Betancourt gets fewer than 10 starts at SS.

 

Yuni is the everyday SS. If a move was going to be made, it would have been made. Don't have to like it, but I think it's pretty clear that that's how it is.

 

Fans are usually a lot less forgiving than players, especially because we can nurse our grievances without ever having to confront the subject of those grievenaces. Yuni has limitations as a player. His teammates know that. So long as he is a good teammate, controls the things he can control given his limitations, and is seen to be working hard to improve, his teammates will probably be OK with him. It does no good in this situation, at this point in the season, to undermine a decision that has been made.

[strawbossisevil]

Yuni would have to improve to be below average defensively.

 

Yuni gets singled out for 2 reasons.

1)He has no track record of success in the past few years.

2)For some reason people feel compelled to defend him which is odd, see #1.

 

Neither Yuni or McGehee are doing anything well at this point. Every other player can at least hit enough to make up for their defensive shortcomings. Yuni is probably our worst defender on the field at what is considered a premium defensive position.

People felt compelled to defend him, not because they felt that he was good. Nor because they even felt that he was even below average. But because 1) some weren´t being honest about the availablity of other SS options in the offseason and because 2) some were calling out Yuni on multiple plays every game...despite the fact that a difference between Yuni and an average SS is probably a handful of balls per month.

There was no objectivity to the attacks made on his game. I was the first in line to say he sucks defensively (look at my signature, it's right there and has been there for months), but some went way, way, way overboard in their criticisms. To the point that some plays that were even borderline Gold Glove caliber plays were meriting him criticism. I can´t tell you how many times I saw a criticism made of him, went back to look at the video online (I have the MLB package) and found the criticism to be totally bogus or very, very questionable. Not to say there weren´t some that were legitimate, there were. But like a said, objectivity is gone for many.

Is making such a defense of Yuni not legitimate? He sucks, we get it. But at least try to be objective...yet some posters, have not even tried to look at him with an objective eye, and I think you are one of the most frequent violators.

The fact that you´ve dedicated your signature to it is clue #1. The fact that I've never once seen you actually acknowledge a good play he's made is #2. There is no objectivity with you. You don't care about being objective. You just care about banging on your Yuni stinks drum over and over and over...ad naseum. We get it, and we agree with you, he sucks, most of the time he is pretty awful.

 

[DougJones43]

Now that could go back to his pop ups tomorrow. You keep an eye out for that...

Shouldn't the goal be to avoid playing him during this inevitable regression, rather than wait for it to happen and react after the fact? There's no good reason to put the team through something that can be pretty easily predicted by looking at this player's history.

 

edit: It was the same thing with Kameron Loe. His shortcomings are very clear just by looking at his track record, but management insisted on seeing the proof of those shortcomings multiple times before removing him from a role he had no business in. That failure to predict and pro-actively stop a predictable negative result likely cost the team several games.

[strawbossisevil]

So essentially you'd rather have a player who is seeing the ball well and smoking it sitting on the bench, because he'll eventually regress someday?

 

If the Brewers did that today, they may not have scored enough runs to win the game. They played the hot hand and they were rewarded for it. I'd say I'm pretty happy how RRR's decision played out. Aren't you?

[Ennder]

I like the moves we made during the season overall, especially since we really gave up nothing to get them. We didn't make any stupid moves and the moves we did make helped the team.

[DougJones43]

So essentially you'd rather have a player who is seeing the ball well and smoking it sitting on the bench, because he'll eventually regress someday?

 

If the Brewers did that today, they may not have scored enough runs to win the game. They played the hot hand and they were rewarded for it. I'd say I'm pretty happy how RRR's decision played out. Aren't you?

First off, I think you're overstating how well he's been hitting. He was 1-for-4 today (granted the out to Barmes was hit hard). He grounded into a double play. He came to the plate today with 6 runners on base, and 2 of them scored. I certainly don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Hairston could have driven in 2 runs (possibly more) with the same opportunities Yuni had today. And as I stated earlier, Betancourt's OPS over the past week is .668 so he's not as white hot as everyone seems to think.

 

So to answer your question, yes, I'd rather sit the (sort of) hot hand with a proven history of failure in favor of a player with consistently better long-term production and projections.

[strawbossisevil]

The play to Barmes was the double play. Did you watch the game? That play robbed him of having additional RBIs. He's been hitting the ball hard lately. I'm fine playing with him as long as he keeps this up, especially considering JHJ's recent hand issue.

 

No need to rush JHJ into the daily line up. If JHJ should have been on the field today, he should have been at 3b, not SS. Aside from Counsell's defensive gem, he was awful at the plate today once again.

[endaround]

The Red Hot, hitting with the intensity of 5 suns Betancourt has a wOBA of .323 for his incredibly productive July. Hariston has a wOBA of .322 for the season.

[dlk9s]

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4821/903cluof2.gif

[strawbossisevil]

What has McGehee's July looked like? Or Counsell's July? Would you rather have Betancourt's .323 playing next to Hairston's .322. Or would you prefer Hairston's .322 playing next to McGehee's ____. Or Counsell's ______. Currently, with the way Betancourt is hitting, I'd rather Hairston would have played 3b. Especially if we are going to start Counsell.

[logan82]

What has McGehee's July looked like? Or Counsell's July? Would you rather have Betancourt's .323 playing next to Hairston's .322. Or would you prefer Hairston's .322 playing next to McGehee's ____. Or Counsell's ______. Currently, with the way Betancourt is hitting, I'd rather Hairston would have played 3b. Especially if we are going to start Counsell.

There are other players than just Betancourt drawing criticism. McGehee, Kotsay and Counsell amongst them.

[jjfanec]

I wish we would have gotten a starting SS. Outside of that I really like the changes. Lopez and Hairston Jr are nice additions. K-Rod was a great pickup. He has really solidified the bullpen. So I did not get everything I wanted but that is okay.

 

This board is frustrating sometimes because when we do make a trade we give up prospects we should never part with a smaller market team, but when we dont trade our prospects people complain too. This is definitely not every poster, but the overall negativity on this board is pretty over the top considering we are 11 games over .500, winning the division, and are not far off from being able to host a playoff series.

[Oldcity]

I agree with others that I was fine with melvin's moves but fear that RR is going to mess it all up.

RR didn't mess this up. That's all on Melvin. He's the one who DFAd Carroll instead of Wilson, Counsell, or Betancourt. RR is now forced to play Hairston in center against every lefty.

And as to no shortstops being available, Melvin shouldn't have put himself in this position in the first place. It's mind-boggling that he would make all those win-now moves and then enter the season with Yuniesky Freaking Betancourt as his starting shortstop.

[logan82]

I think there is a lot of frustration over having so many obviously weak players on the team and DPR is seemingly oblivious to how bad those players are. We are likely very close in talent to the Cards and we are talking about having a very close division so every game is huge. I don't think it is over the top at all. Nobody is calling for Melvin's or DPR's head, yet.

 

RR is now forced to play Hairston in center against every lefty.

 

No he isn't. Leave Morgan out there and move him down the order. There are always choices.

[RockCoCougars]

Not to let this one take activity from 'The' Yuni thread, but I think that people are forgetting that if Yuni wasn't here, Escobar would be. Escobar has been pretty much brutal at the plate- I have no idea how he has a positive 'WAR', but look at the stats. While it is true that he has about .5 extra assists per game, meaning that his range is better, you have to consider that K.C. has about 15 percent less strikeouts as a staff, and gives up about 10% more hits. These two numbers would indicate that Escobar has more chances to make a play than Yuni. Betancourt has made 13 errors, but not many have caused me to curse out loud. It seems like every mistake Escobar made last year was crucial. He was pretty much terrible last year, and judging from the stats doesn't appear to be much better this year.

[jjfanec]

I think there is a lot of frustration over having so many obviously weak players on the team and DPR is seemingly oblivious to how bad those players are. We are likely very close in talent to the Cards and we are talking about having a very close division so every game is huge. I don't think it is over the top at all. Nobody is calling for Melvin's or DPR's head, yet.

There was like a 4 page thread talking about people's least favorite guy on the team. The talk me off a ledge on Greinke thread. The Yuni thread. The Casey thread. The Counsell thread. Numerous threads on Kotsay. A thread turning Ronieke into a whipping boy. Numerous threads talking about the injustice of Taylor Green not being up. It is also that these threads are the longest threads on the board. At the same time there have been very few threads talking about the positives on this team. Our rotation has been lights out lately. K-Rod and Axe have been very good. Braun and Fielder have been MVP worthy. Lucroy gives a hitting threat at catcher.

 

I dont know maybe it isnt that bad but it seems like there are more negative threads than normal.

[jjfanec]

Not to let this one take activity from 'The' Yuni thread, but I think that people are forgetting that if Yuni wasn't here, Escobar would be. Escobar has been pretty much brutal at the plate- I have no idea how he has a positive 'WAR', but look at the stats. While it is true that he has about .5 extra assists per game, meaning that his range is better, you have to consider that K.C. has about 15 percent less strikeouts as a staff, and gives up about 10% more hits. These two numbers would indicate that Escobar has more chances to make a play than Yuni. Betancourt has made 13 errors, but not many have caused me to curse out loud. It seems like every mistake Escobar made last year was crucial. He was pretty much terrible last year, and judging from the stats doesn't appear to be much better this year.Es

Escobar is being talked about as a gold glover at SS, but his bat is terrible. However Yuni cant hit much and cant field so I would rather have Escobar.

[LouisEly]

Back to the point of the thread...

 

In the last 8 months Melvin has traded for Grienke, Marcum, K-Rod, Morgan, Hairston, and Lopez. Debate if he overpaid for any of them, but when you make that many moves in 8 months I can't call it disappointment. The knock was starting pitching so he went and got it. Unfortunately it cost him his rangy but somewhat error-prone young SS, but the upside is not having to start a Jeff Suppan in the playoffs.

 

He needed starting pitching and went out and got it. He needed a CF and went out and got one. He needed a setup man who was decent against lefties because all three bullpen lefties he started the season with were medically unavailable, and he went and got one. He had an all star 2B go down for likely a month so he went out and got one. His backup CF went down so he got one who also can play SS and 3B. Hard to be disappointed.

 

Yeah Yuni and Casey haven't been good, but the combined games missed by Grienke, Hart, Saito, Hawkins, Parra, Stetter, Braddock, Kintzler, Braun, Lucroy, and Weeks have had more impact than the below-average play of those two.

Melvin has had a MASH unit like job this year and only has so many trading chips to use.

[geddymd73]

Hairston could also have gone 0 for 4, with 0 RBI. Thats the other side of the coin. Plus he only has a history of hitting .111 lifetime against Myers. Not the line I'm looking for.

[Oldcity]

I think there is a lot of frustration over having so many obviously weak players on the team and DPR is seemingly oblivious to how bad those players are. We are likely very close in talent to the Cards and we are talking about having a very close division so every game is huge. I don't think it is over the top at all. Nobody is calling for Melvin's or DPR's head, yet.

 

RR is now forced to play Hairston in center against every lefty.

 

No he isn't. Leave Morgan out there and move him down the order. There are always choices.

Well then Morgan against lefties hurts the team too, because he can't hit them. Either way, he hamstrung RR by DFAing Carroll.

[LouisEly]

Not to let this one take activity from 'The' Yuni thread, but I think that people are forgetting that if Yuni wasn't here, Escobar would be. Escobar has been pretty much brutal at the plate- I have no idea how he has a positive 'WAR', but look at the stats. While it is true that he has about .5 extra assists per game, meaning that his range is better, you have to consider that K.C. has about 15 percent less strikeouts as a staff, and gives up about 10% more hits. These two numbers would indicate that Escobar has more chances to make a play than Yuni. Betancourt has made 13 errors, but not many have caused me to curse out loud. It seems like every mistake Escobar made last year was crucial. He was pretty much terrible last year, and judging from the stats doesn't appear to be much better this year.Es

Escobar is being talked about as a gold glover at SS, but his bat is terrible. However Yuni cant hit much and cant field so I would rather have Escobar.

 

 

No, the choice wasn't Escobar or Yuni. The choice was Escobar and (name a free agent starting pitcher who was willing to come to Milwaukee) or Yuni and Grienke.

 

Those with a crystal ball who were willing to risk Capuano's injury history, bravo. But no Yuni means no Grienke.

[jjfanec]

Not to let this one take activity from 'The' Yuni thread, but I think that people are forgetting that if Yuni wasn't here, Escobar would be. Escobar has been pretty much brutal at the plate- I have no idea how he has a positive 'WAR', but look at the stats. While it is true that he has about .5 extra assists per game, meaning that his range is better, you have to consider that K.C. has about 15 percent less strikeouts as a staff, and gives up about 10% more hits. These two numbers would indicate that Escobar has more chances to make a play than Yuni. Betancourt has made 13 errors, but not many have caused me to curse out loud. It seems like every mistake Escobar made last year was crucial. He was pretty much terrible last year, and judging from the stats doesn't appear to be much better this year.Es

Escobar is being talked about as a gold glover at SS, but his bat is terrible. However Yuni cant hit much and cant field so I would rather have Escobar.

 

 

No, the choice wasn't Escobar or Yuni. The choice was Escobar and (name a free agent starting pitcher who was willing to come to Milwaukee) or Yuni and Grienke.

 

Those with a crystal ball who were willing to risk Capuano's injury history, bravo. But no Yuni means no Grienke.

Oh I know. I still love the Greinke trade even with Yuni coming over. Greinke the past few weeks has shown me what I thought we were getting. If he can pitch like that in the playoffs I like our top 3 a ton.

[logan82]

At the same time there have been very few threads talking about the positives on this team. Our rotation has been lights out lately. K-Rod and Axe have been very good. Braun and Fielder have been MVP worthy. Lucroy gives a hitting threat at catcher.

 

I dont know maybe it isnt that bad but it seems like there are more negative threads than normal.

 

It's possible that there are more negative threads than usual. Negative things are always going to attract more discussion. That is just the nature of the internet. Lots of statistical discussion has died off in recent years. We also haven't had much in the way of prospects brought up and there really isn't anybody we are looking forward to seeing(outside of Green) like in years past. I guess I am just of the opinion that there are fewer threads overall and fewer positive threads, not more negative threads. I know that is splitting hairs. There has also been a definite shift in baseball philosophy in recent years. I started a Weeks for All-Star thread.

 

Well then Morgan against lefties hurts the team too, because he can't hit them. Either way, he hamstrung RR by DFAing Carroll.

I would say that Morgan in CF offensively and defensively is probably very close to if not better than Carroll in CF.

[LouisEly]

I think there is a lot of frustration over having so many obviously weak players on the team and DPR is seemingly oblivious to how bad those players are. We are likely very close in talent to the Cards and we are talking about having a very close division so every game is huge. I don't think it is over the top at all. Nobody is calling for Melvin's or DPR's head, yet.

 

RR is now forced to play Hairston in center against every lefty.

 

No he isn't. Leave Morgan out there and move him down the order. There are always choices.

Well then Morgan against lefties hurts the team too, because he can't hit them. Either way, he hamstrung RR by DFAing Carroll.

 

 

Given that roughly 70% of pitchers are right-handed, it's not that big of a deal.

[MNBrew]

He actually just had one really bad month. He's hit every other month. . . .

 

April .273

May .178

June .284

July .301

Exactly. And he hit .259 last year, but w/ 16 HRs & 78 RBIs. Betancourt would hardly be considered shabby offensively IF he could take walks at a half-decent rate (probably as well as if the crappy pop-up thing he's worn us out with hadn't been so extreme).

 

I'm not saying he'd be anything great, just much more tolerable on offense. On defense, I'm at least glad I've witnessed some of his highlight-reel plays.

 

Crucify me now, but while I'm not saying AT ALL that he's a good defensive SS (I believe he's not), I do believe two things: 1) defense, while hugely important, has also become quite overvalued the past 5 years (esp. in terms of stats being devised & consequently over which there's been greatly increased obsession about it); and 2) that for the most part, Betancourt's defense, while overall sub-standard, is hardly sinking the team.