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Jackson & Teahan to TOR; Frasor to CWS; Jackson flipped to STL for Rasmus

Crew2323

By Crew2323,
in Milwaukee Brewers Talk

SoCal Brew Crew Fan ACL Brewers

SoCal Brew Crew Fan

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This trade makes the Cardinals better in 2011. Bullpen has been their issue and with Jackson taking McClellan's spot, they now have 4 legit arms in the pen instead of just one. Gave up plenty of long term value, but if the Brewers are playing for 2011/12...the road just got a little tougher.
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jmeks23 College Ball

jmeks23

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Yes, because the Cardinals are God's gift to baseball MJ. Fate is on their side!

 

 

On a serious note...the bullpen help they got is negligible as Dotel is really old and it's doubtful that he can seriously close games at this point with declining stuff. The LHP has been decent, but it seems as though he's just a LOOGY so not much to write home about.

 

Patterson is a backup, but perhaps he will turn his career around because he's playing for the almighty St. Louis Cardinals.

 

 

Overall, can't judge the trade til I see if they can fix Jackson's command issues, but at present it seems like a pretty pointless deal.

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ramssuperbowl99 College Ball

ramssuperbowl99

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This reminds me of this thread

 

http://brewersfandemonium...allace-RHP-Clayto?page=1

 

Where the Cardinals were stupid to trade a stud like Wallace for Holliday. Holliday is still are Cardinal and produding very well and Wallace has been nothing special.

Except they also paid Holliday $120 million dollars and got him as a free agent, so Holliday's production as a Cardinal now has no merit being discussed as a part of that trade.

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MJLiverock Draft Eligible

MJLiverock

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Sure it does, people thought Wallace would be a stud, he isn't. Holliday may or may not have signed with STL as a free agent had he not played there first, they also didn't have to give up draft picks to sign him. But the main point is that just because a young player has potential or promise it doesn't mean it is a given those expectations will be met. The Cardinals are risking the future production of Rasmus (which may be good or he may be average) against the improved bullpen(they needed a LOOGY, and moved McClellan back to the pen, plus got Dotel who I view as a throw in) and rotation (Jackson in place of McClellan) for this year's run, potentially, Pujols' last year there.

 

I don't see it as some awful deal that damages the organization for years like it is portrayed by some posts, just like giving up Wallace for Holliday didn't hurt STL in the long run either despite claims of future WAR and Holliday being on the side after his "poor" showing in Oakland. Risk is a two way street and I think people sometimes get caught up in potential as being automatic.

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ramssuperbowl99 College Ball

ramssuperbowl99

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Sure it does, people thought Wallace would be a stud, he isn't. Holliday may or may not have signed with STL as a free agent had he not played there first, they also didn't have to give up draft picks to sign him. But the main point is that just because a young player has potential or promise it doesn't mean it is a given those expectations will be met. The Cardinals are risking the future production of Rasmus (which may be good or he may be average) against the improved bullpen(they needed a LOOGY, and moved McClellan back to the pen, plus got Dotel who I view as a throw in) and rotation (Jackson in place of McClellan) for this year's run, potentially, Pujols' last year there.

 

I don't see it as some awful deal that damages the organization for years like it is portrayed by some posts, just like giving up Wallace for Holliday didn't hurt STL in the long run either despite claims of future WAR and Holliday being on the side after his "poor" showing in Oakland. Risk is a two way street and I think people sometimes get caught up in potential as being automatic.

You do realize Rasmus has already shown that he's an above average player right? The Cardinals aren't "risking" Rasmus producing in the future - they are outright giving up on it. Barring injury, Rasmus is a lock to be a valuable piece for the Blue Jays, and not only that, but he's also the kind of guy you can extend like you saw the Reds do with Jay Bruce.

If the Cardinals don't get in the playoffs this year, and if the pieces they get aren't huge parts of it, they just gave up a potentially great player for a reliever and a couple supplemental draft picks. Is it completely franchise altering? No. But it's still mind-bogglingly stupid considering now they just lost one of their best cheap pieces.

 

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TooLiveBrew Milwaukee Brewers

TooLiveBrew

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Whoops, I got Jackson's duration with the Sox wrong. Edited the post now.

 

And yeah, I think Hudson would be looking pretty nice for them right now. Not to mention that Holmberg has pitched at both levels of A-ball this year, in his age-19 season.

Stearns Brewing Co.: Sustainability from farm to plate
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MJLiverock Draft Eligible

MJLiverock

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You do realize Rasmus has already shown that he's an above average player right? The Cardinals aren't "risking" Rasmus producing in the future - they are outright giving up on it. Barring injury, Rasmus is a lock to be a valuable piece for the Blue Jays, and not only that, but he's also the kind of guy you can extend like you saw the Reds do with Jay Bruce.

If the Cardinals don't get in the playoffs this year, and if the pieces they get aren't huge parts of it, they just gave up a potentially great player for a reliever and a couple supplemental draft picks. Is it completely franchise altering? No. But it's still mind-bogglingly stupid considering now they just lost one of their best cheap pieces.

 

Of course they are risking his future production, he may turn out rather pedestrian or maybe you know for a fact that he is going to be a star. He was great last year, not so much this year though, he's been out produced by Jon Jay. So no I don't say it is a "lock" that Rasmus is some sort of superstar or irreplaceable piece, especially given that he was already replaced by Jay. Rasmus may be good, the key is may be, but given his attitude, and failure to live up to hype surrounding his defense he may end up as a platoon player or moved to one of the corners where his bat is nothing special, especially if he remains a .250/.330/.420 hitter with bad defense.

 

I don't see why it is so hard to admit he may not be as good as hoped, it happens all the time with young players. His attitude is a big flag, relying on his father for hitting advice instead of the ML coaches, and being lazy on defense as some have bandied about for why he has been so bad don't scream for automatic improvement in the coming years.

 

He burst onto the scene with a great year in AA, then had a rather pedestrian AAA stint and rookie year with the bat. Last year was great and now he is back down again on top of his poor defense. If you think last year is the baseline and he will produce at that level going forward then he will be a very good player(although even last year's numbers were helped with a .354 BABIP). But if this year is how he is going to perform going forward then it isn't nearly the travesty it is painted as. I know how some like WAR as the uber stat, well Rasmus ranks 22nd for CF'ers in that stat for the season, at this pace he is a below average CF. So he's had one great year and one below average year, I don't see either of those as being automatic evidence which way his career forward will pan out.

 

 

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jjfanec ACL Brewers

jjfanec

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Sure it does, people thought Wallace would be a stud, he isn't. Holliday may or may not have signed with STL as a free agent had he not played there first, they also didn't have to give up draft picks to sign him. But the main point is that just because a young player has potential or promise it doesn't mean it is a given those expectations will be met. The Cardinals are risking the future production of Rasmus (which may be good or he may be average) against the improved bullpen(they needed a LOOGY, and moved McClellan back to the pen, plus got Dotel who I view as a throw in) and rotation (Jackson in place of McClellan) for this year's run, potentially, Pujols' last year there.

 

I don't see it as some awful deal that damages the organization for years like it is portrayed by some posts, just like giving up Wallace for Holliday didn't hurt STL in the long run either despite claims of future WAR and Holliday being on the side after his "poor" showing in Oakland. Risk is a two way street and I think people sometimes get caught up in potential as being automatic.

Your logic means any trade of a prospect for a major leaguer is viewed as a success because we can never know if a prospect will succeed. Well we dont know if Jackson will succeed or Dotel for that matter. Jackson was decent, maybe good in a very bad hitting AL Central. Now the NL Central is not great but it is no guarantee he is even going to be a 4.00 ERA guy for the next couple months and that is all they have him for.
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pitchleague ACL Brewers

pitchleague

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the thing that scares me about this trade is that Dave Duncan will completely turn Edwin Jackson around and he'll be completely dominating for a couple of months.

- - - - - - - - -

P.I.T.C.H. LEAGUE CHAMPION 1989, 1996, 1999, 2000, 2006, 2007, 2011 (finally won another one)

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bigredrobbo Draft Eligible

bigredrobbo

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Over at Viva El Birdos, Cards fans are pissed. Real pissed! I would even go so far as to say angry. In fact, someone with greater Photoshop skills than I could be working right now on a t-shirt design featuring the Angry 'Birds being pissed at this trade. We can split the proceeds until the copyright people tell us to stop making the shirts! I'm just saying...http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif
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Ennder Carolina Mudcats

Ennder

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the thing that scares me about this trade is that Dave Duncan will completely turn Edwin Jackson around and he'll be completely dominating for a couple of months.

He hasn't really turned many pitchers around, he gets random good years from guys because they are a defense oriented team in a pitchers park but they never seem to sustain it.

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sbrylski ACL Brewers

sbrylski

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Yes...everything is completely random...we're all just spinning through the world aimlessly...
Strawman.

 

Demonstrate the correlation between Duncan and pitching performance. You know, addressing the argument, and using evidence.

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Oxy ACL Brewers

Oxy

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sbrylski06 wrote:
Yes...everything is completely random...we're all just spinning through the world aimlessly...
Strawman.

 

Demonstrate the correlation between Duncan and pitching performance. You know, addressing the argument, and using evidence.

Chris Carpenter, Jeff Suppan, Braden Looper, Joel Pineiro, Kyle Lohse... Meanwhile I'm hard pressed to think of any Cardinal pitcher who performed poorer as a Cardinal than as a member of different team.
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