Craig Counsell needs to move to the coaching staff and off active roster (Hitless streak snapped, reply #105)

[RockCoCougars]

I'm hoping that they'll try to protect him from getting the record either by getting him to retire or putting him on the DL.

[Mike2k33]

I know it's just 28 ABs but Craig's OPS for July is .036 and it would be .000 had Micah Owings not hit Craig back on July 4.

[rluzinski]

Something needs to be done. After that dribbler in front of the plate today (in which Counsell didn't even run, which isn't very Counsell-esque), he looked like a little boy who was about to cry.

It's always interesting how two people can see the same thing and come away with COMPLETELY different takes. He didn't run because he thought it was foul, or at least wanted to sell it as foul. That is VERY Counsell-esque if was trying to sell the foul. And when he was called out, he just looked like a guy who was surprised and/or disappointed that it wasn't called foul.

The way you characterized it was that he didn't even bother to run it out, which is NOT what happened.

[DougJones43]

I would normally have expected Counsell to start running on anything borderline like that, rather than just stand there and allow himself to be easily tagged out.

 

And if you don't detect anything in his body language that tells you he's extremely frustrated and lacking confidence, then I guess you're right that we have different takes on what we see.

[rluzinski]

And if you don't detect anything in his body language that tells you he's extremely frustrated and lacking confidence, then I guess you're right that we have different takes on what we see.

Counsell has often shown disappointment through his body language after a poor AB, especially with runners on and he's the third out. Since he hasn't had a hit in forever, he's certainly increased how often he has shown disappointment.

The more important question is, do we HAVE to automatically assume that when a batter shows disappointment during a cold streak, it serves only to proliferate that poor performance? I mean, it's completely fair to assume that it could be, but it's quite possible that Counsell is completely focused during the AB's, so whatever he does after is irrelevant. Do I lose my baseball-fan card for even posing the question?

 

[JohnBriggs12]

Just DFA him already. Better yet, release him outright. My goodness, we aren't talking about a HOFer. Good guys and much better players have been released outright at the end of their careers throughout the history of the game. I remember when the Brewers picked up one time Milwaukee Brave Felipe Alou at the end of his career. Fans had warm feelings about him too. He was released after 3 AB's for the Brewers for one simple reason: he was done and so is Counsell. You'd be doing him a favor saving him from further embarrassment.

[strawbossisevil]

And if you don't detect anything in his body language that tells you he's extremely frustrated and lacking confidence, then I guess you're right that we have different takes on what we see.

Counsell has often shown disappointment through his body language after a poor AB, especially with runners on and he's the third out. Since he hasn't had a hit in forever, he's certainly increased how often he has shown disappointment.

The more important question is, do we HAVE to automatically assume that when a batter shows disappointment during a cold streak, it serves only to proliferate that poor performance? I mean, it's completely fair to assume that it could be, but it's quite possible that Counsell is completely focused during the AB's, so whatever he does after is irrelevant. Do I lose my baseball-fan card for even posing the question?

 

A player's mental state certainly goes into how well the player plays. For a simple example of this, look at the principle of home field advantage. Why do players play better at home than they do on the road? It almost certainly has to do with the mental state of the players.

 

The power of positive thinking is a very real thing in sports. I don't know how exactly it can represented in statistics, but it certainly exists and is a factor that needs to be considered. This is why simply looking into the stats as if they were produced by some robots will always fail to give a completely accurate picture of a player. They aren't robots, they are human beings who are on the same emotional rollercoasters that the rest of us are. We often don't know what is going on behind the scenes that may be effecting their moods, and their resulting performance.

 

[rluzinski]

And if you don't detect anything in his body language that tells you he's extremely frustrated and lacking confidence, then I guess you're right that we have different takes on what we see.

Counsell has often shown disappointment through his body language after a poor AB, especially with runners on and he's the third out. Since he hasn't had a hit in forever, he's certainly increased how often he has shown disappointment.

The more important question is, do we HAVE to automatically assume that when a batter shows disappointment during a cold streak, it serves only to proliferate that poor performance? I mean, it's completely fair to assume that it could be, but it's quite possible that Counsell is completely focused during the AB's, so whatever he does after is irrelevant. Do I lose my baseball-fan card for even posing the question?

 

A player's mental state certainly goes into how well the player plays. For a simple example of this, look at the principle of home field advantage. Why do players play better at home than they do on the road? It almost certainly has to do with the mental state of the players.

I hoped I made it clear that I am not suggesting that emotions play no role in performance. There is no question that it can. My question was whether we should automatically ASSUME that a slumping batter who throws his bat after a bad AB, negatively impacts his expected performance going forward? My stance is simply that it could vary from "a lot" to "not to any meaningful degree" depending on the player and situation. Assuming "a lot" is just as bad as assuming "not at all".

Fans too often use the slump as evidence that emotions are affecting the batter, so it just becomes a chicken-egg situation. Give a robot a 25% chance of getting a hit for 600 consecutive AB's and he will also show clear evidence of being "locked in and confident" one second and "frustrated" the next.

[RockCoCougars]

Just DFA him already. Better yet, release him outright. My goodness, we aren't talking about a HOFer. Good guys and much better players have been released outright at the end of their careers throughout the history of the game. I remember when the Brewers picked up one time Milwaukee Brave Felipe Alou at the end of his career. Fans had warm feelings about him too. He was released after 3 AB's for the Brewers for one simple reason: he was done and so is Counsell. You'd be doing him a favor saving him from further embarrassment.

Agreed. Mike Schmidt even knew enough to hang them up mid-season. I understand that no one wants to go out like this, but does Counsell actually think that he's going to go on a tear, become a postseason hero and go out on top? If so, he's fooling himself- if not, he's only in it for the money, and that's pathetic.

 

As for the 'Brewers icon' and 'Wisconsin boy' thing, I guess that I don't see how he's a Brewer icon. Cecil Cooper was a Brewers icon, and it ended ugly in '87. I don't think he played after June, though he was on the active roster. I also remember reading that he refused several opportunities to go into the game to pinch hit that season. Nearly 25 years ago and that is mostly forgotten, so it's not how he is remembered. As for the Wisconsin angle I've mentioned the Augie thing. He pitched for the team starting right before they got good and had been around for several years by '82, when he was unceremoniously dumped from the post-season roster. I'm pretty sure the next season, he spent a lot of time in Vancouver (AAA). A true Brewer's icon/Wisconsin boy combo was Jim Gantner. He was basically forced out by the Brewers after rehabbing a knee issue in '93/'94 (Bando must have thought that Billy Doran was the answer), the Brewers offered him a 1B coaching job to save face.

[strawbossisevil]

Counsell has often shown disappointment through his body language after a poor AB, especially with runners on and he's the third out. Since he hasn't had a hit in forever, he's certainly increased how often he has shown disappointment.

The more important question is, do we HAVE to automatically assume that when a batter shows disappointment during a cold streak, it serves only to proliferate that poor performance? I mean, it's completely fair to assume that it could be, but it's quite possible that Counsell is completely focused during the AB's, so whatever he does after is irrelevant. Do I lose my baseball-fan card for even posing the question?

 

A player's mental state certainly goes into how well the player plays. For a simple example of this, look at the principle of home field advantage. Why do players play better at home than they do on the road? It almost certainly has to do with the mental state of the players.

I hoped I made it clear that I am not suggesting that emotions play no role in performance. There is no question that it can. My question was whether we should automatically ASSUME that a slumping batter who throws his bat after a bad AB, negatively impacts his expected performance going forward? My stance is simply that it could vary from "a lot" to "not to any meaningful degree" depending on the player and situation. Assuming "a lot" is just as bad as assuming "not at all".

Fans too often use the slump as evidence that emotions are affecting the batter, so it just becomes a chicken-egg situation. Give a robot a 25% chance of getting a hit for 600 consecutive AB's and he will also show clear evidence of being "locked in and confident" one second and "frustrated" the next.

I get what you are saying now. It probably is somewhere on the continuum of "a lot" and "not to any meaningful degree" for Craig. Although as this stretch goes on for longer, I imagine the needle has to begin to point more toward "a lot". He's human just like the rest of us. It is one thing to go on a 0-10 slide. Every player in the game expects those types of slumps to come around. But as his slump has gone on now for over a month, just the embarrassment of it all has to have an ever increasing impact on his game and his confidence at the plate.

He is 6 ABs from being the laughing stock of all of Major League Baseball, and I imagine that he is aware of it and that it has greatly impacted his confidence. That's a guess, but I think it is a fair guess to make.

 

[monty57]

if not, he's only in it for the money, and that's pathetic

 

Not really. If he retires, he loses around $1,000,000. It's possible he could not make another $1,000,000 from gainful employment for the rest of his life. In "the real world," that's a lot of money. If he doesn't retire, even if he gets released, he still gets paid. I don't think he's pathetic for continuing to play. The Brewers are the ones who should relize that he's done and release him... that happens all the time.

 

If they want to play up the "hometown boy" angle, they could simply make it look like a retirement but still agree to pay him.

[RockCoCougars]

if not, he's only in it for the money, and that's pathetic

 

Not really. If he retires, he loses around $1,000,000. It's possible he could not make another $1,000,000 from gainful employment for the rest of his life. In "the real world," that's a lot of money. If he doesn't retire, even if he gets released, he still gets paid. I don't think he's pathetic for continuing to play. The Brewers are the ones who should relize that he's done and release him... that happens all the time.

 

If they want to play up the "hometown boy" angle, they could simply make it look like a retirement but still agree to pay him.

It's more like $400,000 at this point. For a guy who has made nearly $20 million over is career, that is not much. How much did Gil Meche leave on the table?

 

Counsell should approach the team about retiring. Chances are he would get that money either outright or with some gig for the team. Gritty battlers are always in demand for coaching jobs.

[jmeks23]

It's really sad watching him struggle to hit a ball out of the infield, or in the air in general. Almost all of his outs during the streak are ground outs. The flyouts are weak popups, usually in the infield or at the cut of the outfield grass. He's just really pathetic right now, and I think even though we all like him, he's just done. He honestly looks worse than Wil Nieves up there, and that is truly sad.

[monty57]

if not, he's only in it for the money, and that's pathetic

 

Not really. If he retires, he loses around $1,000,000. It's possible he could not make another $1,000,000 from gainful employment for the rest of his life. In "the real world," that's a lot of money. If he doesn't retire, even if he gets released, he still gets paid. I don't think he's pathetic for continuing to play. The Brewers are the ones who should relize that he's done and release him... that happens all the time.

 

If they want to play up the "hometown boy" angle, they could simply make it look like a retirement but still agree to pay him.

It's more like $400,000 at this point. For a guy who has made nearly $20 million over is career, that is not much. How much did Gil Meche leave on the table?

 

Counsell should approach the team about retiring. Chances are he would get that money either outright or with some gig for the team. Gritty battlers are always in demand for coaching jobs.

I guess it was last year he made $2.1MM, I thought that was this year. This year it's "only" $1.4MM. We're about 2/3 of the way through the season, so he's owed around $500,000. The Brewers should be willing to eat that. Again, I never expect players to give up money. What Gil Meche did doesn't happen often. I believe Cal Ripken left money on the table as well, but usually the player is just let go. Maybe his desire to not go down in history as the player with the all-time hitless streak will be enough for him to hang 'em up.

 

Either way, he should be off the roster.

[Ranier]

Provided we make the playoffs, do you think it will be possible to hear the collective laughter of America when they show the numbers for Counsell when we use him as important PH in a big game?

And then he will get a hit to shut them up.

[logan82]

For a simple example of this, look at the principle of home field advantage. Why do players play better at home than they do on the road? It almost certainly has to do with the mental state of the players.

 

That may have more to do with being used to the batting eye in CF or not being tired from traveling. It doesn't necessarily have much to do with a positive or negative mental state.

[strawbossisevil]

For a simple example of this, look at the principle of home field advantage. Why do players play better at home than they do on the road? It almost certainly has to do with the mental state of the players.

 

That may have more to do with being used to the batting eye in CF or not being tired from traveling. It doesn't necessarily have much to do with a positive or negative mental state.

Except it happens in every sport. Football, soccer, basketball, hockey. Is staying in a posh hotel all that more tiring than staying in your posh home? I doubt it, the whole season is essentially one long sustained road trip. I think it most definitely is an issue of emotions.

[logan82]

Is staying in a posh hotel all that more tiring than staying in your posh home?

 

Yes, because it isn't home. I don't care how nice a motel is, it isn't home. You don't have to travel to play at home. You have more time to rest.

 

Like I said, the batters eyes are not the same in every park so being used you your home batter eye probably has something to do with it.

[strawbossisevil]

Is staying in a posh hotel all that more tiring than staying in your posh home?

 

Yes, because it isn't home. I don't care how nice a motel is, it isn't home.

I don´t buy that staying in a hotel versus staying at home is capable of accounting for homefield advantage. I believe there is something in the emotions of the players that is influenced by having the fans on your side cheering you on. A few examples would be in international competition, such as international soccer. When two teams play, the home team is often heavily favored. Both teams spend the night in a hotel, so that can´t be it. What is it then...emotions. I think you have to be absolutely cynical to outright deny that the emotions of a player don´t play a role in giving them a home-field advantage.

[logan82]

There may be something to the emotions but you can't ignore that traveling is tiring and the home team doesn't have to travel. I am not denying emotions have some effect. I am saying that you are more tired on the road which leads you to being less physically able to perform and has way more impact than the emotional side of things.

[strawbossisevil]

Except the only difference in traveling is whether you sleep on a hotel bed or your own bed at home. I really don´t think one´s tiredness would be all that different. Home teams have to travel too, since they have series on the road.

 

The argument would hold a lot more weight if one team always played at home, and never traveled while the other team traveled. That isn´t the case. Both teams often have late flights before a given series.

 

I´ve traveled quite a bit myself, and I´ve never found my nights in hotels to be any less restful than nights in my own bed. I think, if anything, spending your night in your house rather than a hotel is more emotionally satisfying, going back to emotions.

There have been plenty of studies that have shown the positive results of receiving encouragement, versus the negative results of receiving criticism. Are we to say that players are immune? Or that it is some small thing? No. I think it is the biggest explanation as to why teams do better at home than on the road, and a far better explanation than...people sleep better in their bedroom versus on that king size bed in the hotel suite.

[1992casey]

How about the hours spent on a plane late at night or the time zone changes? And repeating the process three days later?

[logan82]

Except the only difference in traveling is whether you sleep on a hotel bed or your own bed at home. I really don´t think one´s tiredness would be all that different. Home teams have to travel too, since they have series on the road.

 

You mean other than getting less sleep because of travel time. Especially those West coast trips where your schedule is thrown of by a few hours.

[strawbossisevil]

How about the hours spent on a plane late at night or the time zone changes?

Those often apply to both teams, home and away. Just because the game is in Milwaukee doesn´t mean the Milwaukee players didn´t have to fly in the night before. The whole season is a big long roadtrip for the MLB player.

I could see time zone changes of 2+ hours potentially having an impact. Less than that, not so much.

I suppose you could prove your theory by looking into how teams do in the final three games of a homestand versus the first three games of a homestand. Is there a sizeable difference between the two? The difference would account for the average advantage gained by not having to travel.

[logan82]

Just because the game is in Milwaukee doesn´t mean the Milwaukee players didn´t have to fly in the night before.

 

Sure for a short homestand but generally a team stays at home for a few series at a time.

 

You have also completely ignored the fact that no 2 ballparks are completely the same.