Craig Counsell needs to move to the coaching staff and off active roster (Hitless streak snapped, reply #105)

[molitor fan]

Is there even really a question of this by now? His body language even screams out that his confidence is shot and he has no idea why he is being trotted out there. I see his value around the team and think he would be a quality bench coach of some capacity (asst. to Narron or whatnot). Something has to occur, whether it is this or a phantom oblique injury. Green would be my first choice, but Gindl has been on fire since June 1 with close to a 1.0 OPS and needs to be looked at.

[brwrsfan]

I could not possibly agree any more. Counsell has no business being on the roster, Age has clearly finally caught up to him. It's not just that he's in an 0-35 slump....he's been pretty much useless all year as his .158 average would indicate. He also has zero power of any kind to speak of, so it's not like you can live with his super low average. His defense is OK, but we already have that utility guy in Wilson. He is a real hinderance to the roster at this point and he's really hurting the team.

 

I like him and it's a good story and all, but enough is enough. Fake an injury until September if you have to but he can't really be used in the majors at this point. Green, Gamel or Gindl would all be much better bench options at this point. The worst of it is that RR still continues to use him as the first PH off the bench. He should be the last player used at this point, he hasn't hit a ball hard in 2 months.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I really, really hope that he's not being kept around becauuse of the CC bobblehead doll day. As much as I question some of Melvin's decisions this year, I simply CAN'T bring myself to believe that he'd keep a guy on the roster because of something so incredibly insignificant as a bobblehead day.

 

 

But yah........as much as I groused early on about him not getting playing time, it looks pretty obvious that he's done out there. It'd be nice if he had the good grace to go into Melvin's office and say "Doug, I can't do it anymore".

[PrinceEatMeat]

Counsell is done, and should retire. But he won't, and RR and DM love him. So, he's not going anywhere. That's about it.

[ninja33]

Make up an injury for him until september. Make room for him when the rosters expand for september/the playoffs. Then let him help the brewers win in the bottom of the 9th of game 7 of the world series because that's what craig counsell does.

[FoxyFoxes]

It's just a story of a guy hanging on one year too long. It is too bad because (not to put words in peoples mouths) but who here doesn't like Craig Counsell? I root for the guy but it has become clear he is done. Maybe he will proove us all wrong with some big hits down the stretch but right now Green needs to be on the team over him.

[RockCoCougars]

It's a complete joke. He looked like the 10 year old little leaguer getting his at-bat against the league flamethrower tonight. I'm sure he's a great guy, but I think it's time for him to get a Suppan-esque injury for the month of August. If he wants to end his career with dignity, he can be brought back to the active roster on September 1. On a team with 12 pitchers, there is simply no excuse for him to be holding a roster spot when someone like Boggs/Gamel/Green are toiling in Nashville.

[danzig6767]

If we didn't have Wilson on the roster with the ability to play any of SS, 2nd, and 3rd, i could see keeping Counsell around simply for his defensive abilities. In a close playoff race though where a guy pinch hitting well could contribute to winning an extra game, it really is hard to justify keeping Craig on the roster.

 

This 35 at bat hit-less stretch isn't exactly a bunch of at bats, but the more troubling thing for me is how he's looked in the vast majority of those 35 at bats. Very few hard hit balls, if any. If at least he had some rocket line drives mixed in which just found a glove, i might think he still was worth keeping around. Instead, it's been pretty much 35 at bats of softly hit balls and strikeouts.

[Ennder]

I'm pretty indifferent towards what we do with Counsell but Gindl's OPS since June 1st in the minors is pretty much completely irrelevant to the discussion and what Counsell has done over his last 35 AB has almost nothing to do with it either. Counsell had a positive WAR last year and is sitting right at 0 even with the terrible hitting line this year, he is hardly the problem with the team one way or the other. He isn't much of a solution either of course.

[RockCoCougars]

I see a WAR of -.7 for Counsell. I will admit that I'm not very knowledgeable about the WAR concept, but I'm thinking that figure is horrible for a bench player. I guess that I don't see how people can be indifferent to Counsell when he is sitting on one of the 4 non-catcher backup spots on the team. I have defended Kotsay, but it's sad when he is by far your best bench player.

[molitor fan]

Maybe it is because I am watching the Braves as they come to bat in the 19th inning vs the Pirates, but I have no idea what endder was trying to say in the last post. Was it baseball nihilism? It doesn't matter what anyone does?

[Ayt]

Provided we make the playoffs, do you think it will be possible to hear the collective laughter of America when they show the numbers for Counsell when we use him as important PH in a big game?

[rluzinski]

I'm pretty indifferent towards what we do with Counsell but Gindl's OPS since June 1st in the minors is pretty much completely irrelevant to the discussion and what Counsell has done over his last 35 AB has almost nothing to do with it either. Counsell had a positive WAR last year and is sitting right at 0 even with the terrible hitting line this year, he is hardly the problem with the team one way or the other. He isn't much of a solution either of course.

That sums up my opinion as well. He's a good fielding, no hit back up middle infielder. Upgrading his spot is SO not a priority.

"Maybe it is because I am watching the Braves as they come to bat in the 19th inning vs the Pirates, but I have no idea what endder was trying to say in the last post. Was it baseball nihilism? It doesn't matter what anyone does?"

You've been around here for a decade so I'm pretty sure you know he's alluding to sample size.

[Ennder]

Maybe it is because I am watching the Braves as they come to bat in the 19th inning vs the Pirates, but I have no idea what endder was trying to say in the last post. Was it baseball nihilism? It doesn't matter what anyone does?

Quite simply my post was about understanding sample size. What someone does over a month or two in baseball really means nothing at all, it is useless.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Maybe it is because I am watching the Braves as they come to bat in the 19th inning vs the Pirates, but I have no idea what endder was trying to say in the last post. Was it baseball nihilism? It doesn't matter what anyone does?

Quite simply my post was about understanding sample size. What someone does over a month or two in baseball really means nothing at all, it is useless.

The stats for a month or 2 may not matter (and I agree, for the most part), but it doesn't take a statistician to look at Counsell, look at his approach at the plate, his weak meager swings, and see that he's just not got it anymore.

 

It's not the end of the world that he's on the team, but he sure as heck shouldn't be the 1st LH PHer off the bench either.

[MJLiverock]

A month of stats or the piddling 35 AB's is minor but when it was pointed out early in the year that he had lost bat speed and was likely done then it doesn't take another 500 futile AB's to prove he is done. Age doesn't have to slowly erode a player's skills in a nice smooth decline like a model or bell curve, when it hits it hits and hitting ability can come to an abrupt end. The only reason his WAR isn't greatly into negative territory is because of a small sample on Defense creating some ridiculously high defensive value, unless you believe Counsell is one of the best fielding SS's in all of baseball by a long ways. He may not be the biggest problem but he is part of the triumverant of suckitude at SS and is taking a roster spot that could be used for a productive player.

 

I don't want to get into the whole looking for a walk discussion from the other thread but that AB last night was the epitome of the poster's point of just hoping the pitcher can't throw strikes. Counsell watched 5 pitches and then got blown away by a high fast ball on his only swing, the balls he watched weren't far out of the zone, it was pretty obvious he had no intention of swinging until he had 2 strikes on him. Being patient at the plate is fine and good but when you have to hope you don't have to swing then it is time to hang'em up. I know some people think watching the first pitch somehow makes a better hitter or wears out a pitcher, but late in the game, watching strikes from a reliever who is only going to be in the game for an inning anyway isn't adding any value.

[monty57]

He won't retire, as it would cost him the rest of the year's salary ($1MM or so) and this it the last big payday he's likely to have.

 

He's at -.9 WPA, so it's hard to say his presence on the team has been inconsequential. Per Fangraphs, McGehee's at -1.38 WPA, while Betancourt is at -2.04 WPA.

 

The team probably doesn't want to unceremoniously dump the "home town boy," but he really needs to go. Maybe they could work something out where he "retires" while still getting paid. Taylor Green could help this team in so many ways is getting almost laughable. He plays 2B & 3B, making Counsell's defensive flexibilty less necessary, and he can hit the ball. He'd upgrade the team on days he's starting at 3B (replacing McGehee) and on days when he's sitting on the bench (replacing Counsell).

[RockCoCougars]

Counsell is overmatched, case closed. I can't help but notice that some of his apologists are among those who are beating the drums the most loudly for Yuni/McGehee- and to a lesser extent Kotsay. Why is that? I don't need to see a WAR statistic to know that Counsell is done out there, but his WAR is lower than Yuni's. I guess I don't understand why it is OK that he's wasting a roster spot. Down the stretch, this team needs a competent pinch hitter- especially against righties, and Counsell is an automatic out. Time to shut him down, give him Suppan's pillow or something. Get someone who can hit, even if it's a Jim Thome who can't play the field anymore.

[markedman5]

CC is now 0 for his last 35.

 

He is 11 hitless at bats away from equaling a major league record that has stood since 1909.......

 

 

http://thelongestlistofth...onglast.com/long496.html

[Funketown]

Counsell is overmatched, case closed. I can't help but notice that some of his apologists are among those who are beating the drums the most loudly for Yuni/McGehee- and to a lesser extent Kotsay.

At this point I largely agree that Counsell has to turn it around immediately or he should go. While his bat is comically bad at this point he still has a bit of value as a 3B/SS defensive replacement. It's hard for me to argue that his value as a defensive replacement is worth that 25-man roster spot anymore. Also, where all of Kotsay's skills are redundant (worse offense than Carroll/Morgan/Braun/Hart, worse defense than Carroll/Morgan/Braun/Hart), Counsell is still a better defensive infielder than anyone on this roster outside of Weeks.

[rluzinski]

Counsell is overmatched, case closed.

 

Is that supposed to be a compelling argument?

 

I can't help but notice that some of his apologists are among those who are beating the drums the most loudly for Yuni/McGehee- and to a lesser extent Kotsay. Why is that?

 

If someone is "beating the drums" for Yuni, wouldn't they be supporting him? Not reallya phrase I use, though.

 

I guess I don't understand why it is OK that he's wasting a roster spot. Down the stretch, this team needs a competent pinch hitter- especially against righties, and Counsell is an automatic out.

 

Look all around the league. Backup shortstops in general are TERRIBLE hitters and should be ahead of only the backup catcher with regard to pinch hitting. SS's as a whole are batting .263/.317/.377/.694. The typical backup SS throws up something like a .225/.290/.340/.630 line! I would be more concerned with RR not relegating Counsell to the last guy off the bench.

 

The reason some aren't getting all worked up is that the backup SS can't have much of an impact either way. Counsell is probably in line to get another 75 AB or so. He has a ROS ZiPS projection of .232/.304/.329 and still seems to play good defense. Yeh, I'd like to upgrade to an average backup SS but I'm much more concerned about other areas of the team right now, IMO. It's a matter of priority.

[monty57]

Yeh, I'd like to upgrade to an average backup SS

 

Ideally, we'd upgrade to an average starting SS, and then Yuni could become our "average backup." Until & unless that happens, I'd rather see either Wilson or Counsell go away and bring up someone who could do more to help the team. Normally, I'd say keep Counsell, as he's a lefty and plays better defense, but he really looks bad at the plate, so I'd probably keep Wilson out of the two of them at this point.

[rluzinski]

Wow, I think I want to upgrade Counsell's spot now!

[xisxisxis]

CC is now 0 for his last 35.

He is 11 hitless at bats away from equaling a major league record that has stood since 1909.......

 

 

0 for 41 as of close of business July 28. 6 more futile at bats and we have a new record.....

[DougJones43]

Something needs to be done. After that dribbler in front of the plate today (in which Counsell didn't even run, which isn't very Counsell-esque), he looked like a little boy who was about to cry.

 

I don't know if it's the Brewers responsibility to DFA him or come up with a reason to put him on the DL, or if Counsell himself should be the one to pull the plug and retire. Either way, I don't think anybody wants his legacy to be a record-setting hitless streak, so no favors are being done when they continue to trot him out there.