The Bring up Taylor Green Thread

[danzig6767]

As far as trades go, Melvin is ultra conservative, he only makes trades he knows have very little chance of backfiring on him. I'll think he's more likely to trade for a 3B, a known quantity, before calling up Green in the short-term. I also don't think Melvin (and this might be Nichols influence) is willing to move players around the way we are looking to get the players in the position they will succeed defensively. For example, because Melvin locked up Weeks, in his mind Lawrie became expendable because we had a long-term 2B, so then Lawrie became Marcum... except that most of us on the MiLB forum thought that while Lawrie was athletic enough to play 2B he would probably end up in a corner spot. So Lawrie wasn't necessarily expendable, he could have easily slid over to 3B since the organization moved Gamel to 1B solidifying the corner IF spots for years to come. The organization still had a fall back option in Farris and Gennett working his way up at 2B. Clearly Melvin and Co were never as concerned about McGehee as many of us on this board were, even though they admitted they never expected him to break out like he did. Melvin has a way of backing himself into corners with severely limited options in front of him. Not just a Marcum/Lawrie thing, but in general, it seems that he tends to end up in places that he doesn't see coming, like how awful the starting pitching turned out to be the last 2 years, and now with McGehee regressing... only he's running out prospects to make deals with now, and he still has SS to worry about as well.

 

I know you are talking in more general terms overall, but Lawrie at 3B would have been a longshot to stick - I'll admit I don't follow MiLB nearly as much as others, but from what I had read he wasn't exactly impressing at 2B. Melvin also traded for Marcum a few months before Rickie was locked up, the two moves didn't have anything to do with each other. Lawrie was expendable because he is projecting (again from what I've read) as a corner OF'er - for a guy who was drafted as a catcher with a power bat......... he loses a lot of value when he suddenly is an OF'er. Plus, the Brewers are set in the corners for years. Not to mention, I imagine the front office had a bit of concern when the kid they gave a check to, with six zeroes on it mind you, is duct taping 40oz bottles of malt liquor to his hand..............

That stuff may have played some factor, but i think the by far biggest reason the Marcum/Lawrie trade was made is far more simple. Both Melvin and Attanasio were pretty desperate to win more games in the present than the future, and starting pitching was clearly the biggest weakness on the big league roster, so Doug made the move once Attanasio gave the ok.

[trwi7]

Rivera wasn't handed the job and a Treanor type wasn't sought out

Rivera wasn't handed the job because Rivera wasn't in the organization. When Zaun got hurt the Brewers had the 5th worst record in baseball. What would have been the point of getting a Treanor type at that point?

 

[TheCrew]

Plus, if memory serves, Lucroy only received limited playing time initially - he played well and thus earned the starting gig.

[Invader3K]

Plus, if memory serves, Lucroy only received limited playing time initially - he played well and thus earned the starting gig.

Yeah, Kottaras actually started at least equally with Lucroy when he was first called up.

[jpat]

I read through about 2/3 of the first page and I can't believe how frustrated I am. Mostly because I completely agree with most everything I read.

I can't believe how McGehee's overall performance hasn't gotten him booted out of the starting lineup. I can't believe how Taylor Green is not up in Milwaukee and playing with us. Considering how Doug has handled Gamel, why wouldn't Taylor Green be brought up, even if he isn't playing every day? My only answer for this is that he MUST know something that we don't know.

Isn't Green the Brewer farm system Minor League Player of the Year in 2007? I have to stop...I'm stressing myself out.

[reillymcshane]

McGehee and Yuni have broken out with 3 for 5 nights each. Let's close this thread!

[And That]

McGehee and Yuni have broken out with 3 for 5 nights each. Let's close this thread!

I'm slightly worried that the Brewers might think that that sentence shouldn't be in blue.

[HiAndTight]

If putting up numbers in AAA meant instant success at the major league level, rumors would be rampant about teams wanting to pick up 35 year old Cody Ransom, who can play 3B and SS and currently has a 1.055 OPS for Reno and guys like Lyle Mouton would have been major league All Stars.

 

Green's played just 85 games at AAA, and has never played in the majors. The thought that "he has nothing to prove at AAA" is wishful thinking for a guy who was slowed by injuries the previous two seasons. He needs to prove he can put up numbers over a full season at AAA.

 

I'm sure the Brewers are well aware of Green and that Melvin has poured over reports from his scouts and Don Money, who knows a thing or two about playing 3B. But it's obvious they don't think it's smart to stick him in the middle of a heated pennant race.

And I would take the production Mouton had the two years following his age 24 season in AAA.

 

Also don't recall anyone saying he has nothing left to prove, though if they did, I don't believe that's the sentiment of most. Most simply believe he'd be an obvious upgrade over McGehee. I have trouble seeing an opposing argument at this time.

[The Truth]

McGehee and Yuni have broken out with 3 for 5 nights each. Let's close this thread!

I'm slightly worried that the Brewers might think that that sentence shouldn't be in blue.

Might? It will guarantee that McGehee & Betancourt will be in the starting lineup tonight!

[FVBrewerFan]

I've been calling for Green to replace McGehee long ago, and probably one of the loudest voices in that regard. With that said, I don't like the tone that people are upset that McGehee has actually been doing better. Yuni too for that matter. I get it, the danger is they're hot for a couple games and that buys them more time...only to revert back to being awful.

 

But what if McGehee does get back to OPSing .750 or so? That's not a bad thing, it's a good thing. So even though I feel strongly he should have been sent down a month a ago, if he can turn it around I'm all for it.

[jjfanec]

I've been calling for Green to replace McGehee long ago, and probably one of the loudest voices in that regard. With that said, I don't like the tone that people are upset that McGehee has actually been doing better. Yuni too for that matter. I get it, the danger is they're hot for a couple games and that buys them more time...only to revert back to being awful.

 

But what if McGehee does get back to OPSing .750 or so? That's not a bad thing, it's a good thing. So even though I feel strongly he should have been sent down a month a ago, if he can turn it around I'm all for it.

This has been one of my biggest struggles with this board this year. It is like people want to see certain guys like Yuni, Kotsay, Loe, and Casey fail so they can be proven right, even though in doing so it is like rooting against the team. I understand that maybe if the guys do worse you will get new players who could be better but I just dont understand it with anyone other than Yuni. Casey has been very solid for a couple years. Loe is decent when used right. Kotsay has actually won us a few games. Yuni is bad and needs to be replaced but I will still cheer for him to do well because there is not much out there for SS so this might be what we are stuck with.

[Thurston Fluff]

But what if McGehee does get back to OPSing .750 or so? That's not a bad thing, it's a good thing. So even though I feel strongly he should have been sent down a month a ago, if he can turn it around I'm all for it.

 

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Off the top of my head I can think of Hart, Hall, Hardy and Weeks as guys who really struggled over a long period of time. Each of them got replaced at one point or another. 75% of them returned to form and contribute today. The problem as I see it is McGehee is more similar to the one who didn't return to form than the three that did. It's a calculated risk either way.

 

All of this is moot because Gamel is going to get the first shot. First of all Ron already said publicly he's the first one up. I don't think he says that without it being a forgone conclusion throughout the organization. Second Gamel is more ready for major league duty. Third you have to take circumstances into consideration. Gamel has played the good solider and did everything asked of him. He said all the right things when it came to switching positions. He is understanding of why he isn't in the majors even though he is the one who has the least to prove at AAA. I could see why he wouldn't be so understanding if they bypass him now to replace someone at his old position. Espcially considering he is the player with the better track record. In all reality he's also the one who is most likely to help right away. I just don't see a sound reason to bring up Green when Gamel is there.

 

Some people have expressed their surprise that Green isn't even being mentioned as a possibility by Melvin. I'm quite sure he's looked at him even if he isn't mentioning him publicly. Why talk publicly about the third man in a two man race?

 

Green could be an option to compete with McGehee next season. By then Gamel will be given first base and allowed to grow there like all the rest of the top prospects have when they were ready.

[FVBrewerFan]

The reason you take Green over Gamel is defense. Gamel has even said he's not comfortable playing 3rd, and it shows. He has barely played any 3rd base this year. So I'm reading how some people here are orried about putting Green in there i nthe mdst of a pennant race. I don't see how putting Gamel at a position he can't play very well is a good move- either for this team or Gamel himself. Any move made on the left side of the IF must include an improvment on defense.

[Thurston Fluff]

Gamel has even said he's not comfortable playing 3rd, and it shows. He has barely played any 3rd base this year.

 

He also said he is comfortable there now after Weeks helped him with his footwork. Which is it? All of his comments are him playing his part. He's not complaining or putting himself at odds with the team. I'm glad he's doing it but I don't really put a lot of credence to his actual words.

 

Any move made on the left side of the IF must include an improvment on defense.

 

No it doesn't have to. It simply has to improve the offense more than it hurts the defense. IF we can platoon Gamel and McGehee we have the same defense we have now yet better offense. I have no doubt Gamel is a better offensive option now than Green. I don't see why less offense for better defense is necessarily better. Let alone the only way to go.

[endaround]

Gamel is a terrible 3B. I don't even know why we continue the charade of him playing there.

[FVBrewerFan]

There's also no proof that Gamel will be better offensively in the short term. In fact, he's proven otherwise in short stints at the MLB level. It doesn't always make sense, but some guys can come up and produce immediately, others don't. Can Green come up and hit right away? We don't know. But he can give you defense right away. This isn't about whether Gamel/Green is the better long term prospect. It's about (or should be about) who can help this team win games for the next couple months.

[Raw Biz]

Gamel has even said he's not comfortable playing 3rd, and it shows. He has barely played any 3rd base this year.

 

He also said he is comfortable there now after Weeks helped him with his footwork. Which is it? All of his comments are him playing his part. He's not complaining or putting himself at odds with the team. I'm glad he's doing it but I don't really put a lot of credence to his actual words.

 

Any move made on the left side of the IF must include an improvment on defense.

 

No it doesn't have to. It simply has to improve the offense more than it hurts the defense. IF we can platoon Gamel and McGehee we have the same defense we have now yet better offense. I have no doubt Gamel is a better offensive option now than Green. I don't see why less offense for better defense is necessarily better. Let alone the only way to go.

This is from about 3 weeks ago.:

"I enjoy first base," Gamel said. "I'm a lot more comfortable over there than I ever was at third."

General manager Doug Melvin said Tuesday that the club has no plans to move Gamel back to third base, where the big league incumbent, Casey McGehee, is struggling to get on track this season.

"I like [first base] a lot, being involved, being able to pick up teammates by picking balls out of the dirt," Gamel said.

I know Gamel started at 3rd like four days after those statements but that was for like a couple games and they sent him down saying he will take time at 3rd. Realistically though, I think the time at 3rd is to get him somewhat comfortable in case we don't upgrade, Casey still struggles, and we need him to fill in for a couple games in September. He could probably handle a start once a week there but I still think that would get in his head too much. He is not a long-term option there.

Another article showing why Gamel should never play 3rd again. Gamel had an .887 fielding % in the minors. That is atrocious.

[monty57]

This team was built on prospects hitting their way into the MLB lineup, but that trend seems to have subsided recently, and Melvin has been more inclined to trade his prospects for proven players. What's sad for me is that it seems to be Brad Nelson of all people who changed Melvin's thought process on rookies. Before Nelson, Melvin traded away vets in favor of good-hitting rookies. After Nelson went 0-21 or whatever, Melvin seems to have shifted gears and favored the "proven vet" over the minor leaguers.

 

If Melvin was going to bring Green up, it seemed to be an obvious move a month or so ago. At this point, my guess is that Green will be involved in a trade to bring a rental player in to play 3B. I hope I'm wrong, as this may help us in the short term, but will probably hurt us long-term. If it does occur, I certainly hope it's not in a Ramirez trade, because I would hate watching Green play for the Cubs for the next six seasons.

 

As for bringing Gamel up to play 3B, please no. I don't think I could handle watching games go down the drain as routine ground balls end up being thrown ten feet over Prince's head and into the stands. I don't understand why Gamel is ahead of Green on the Brewers' 3B depth chart after they already moved him off of third. Green was a minor league player of the year who got injured. He's now healthy and hitting as well as Gamel and can actually play 3B. There is no guarantee which of the two would hit better, especially over a couple of months, but there is a very good chance Green would outplay Gamel in the field.

 

Bottom line is that I think bringing Green up would be the best move. My guess is that they will trade for a "proven" 3B. If that doesn't happen and Casey continues to falter, Gamel will be the guy who gets the call.

[patrickgpe]

monty, while you premise is right, i disagree with your take. When Weeks, Fielder, Braun etc were called up the brewers had no post season asperations and were building for the future. I think that all changed in 2007, when Melvin finally decided the team was good enough to make the playoffs. Most teams with that mindset will trade away prospects for 1 year rentals. I don't think it has anything to do with Brad Nelson. He was simply misused by the team because its almost impossible for a kid to come up to the bigs and only be a pinch hitter.

 

Probably the problem is that what position player are you going to send down or DFA for Green. 2 weeks ago i would have said Kotsay but you need him for Braun insurance. Counsell is still a veteran leader, on a team with few, so you need him on your team regardless of his struggles. I don't think you can just drop McGehee as you have no idea what Green is going to do in the bigs, and to put a 24 year old kid in the middle of pennant race is going to be tough. Same thing goes for Yuni B.

 

Threfore unless you loose an arm in the pen and drop dillard or someone, I just don't see it happening right now.

[monty57]

Probably the problem is that what position player are you going to send down or DFA for Green. 2 weeks ago i would have said Kotsay but you need him for Braun insurance. Counsell is still a veteran leader, on a team with few, so you need him on your team regardless of his struggles. I don't think you can just drop McGehee as you have no idea what Green is going to do in the bigs, and to put a 24 year old kid in the middle of pennant race is going to be tough. Same thing goes for Yuni B.

 

Right now we have three bad shortstops on the team in Betancourt, Wilson and Counsell. If any of those three were let go, the team wouldn't miss them. I would drop any of those three, and use Green & McGehee in a "soft platoon" until one of them shows that he deserves to be the everyday player. Remember that Green has also played 2B often in AAA, so he can be a "utility guy" in a pinch.

 

monty, while you premise is right, i disagree with your take. When Weeks, Fielder, Braun etc were called up the brewers had no post season asperations and were building for the future. I think that all changed in 2007, when Melvin finally decided the team was good enough to make the playoffs. Most teams with that mindset will trade away prospects for 1 year rentals. I don't think it has anything to do with Brad Nelson. He was simply misused by the team because its almost impossible for a kid to come up to the bigs and only be a pinch hitter.

 

You're probably right that Nelson probably just happened to be there at the time when Melvin was changing gears anyway, but that year we were going with a young bench and Nelson and another young player who's name escapes me started off slow. Both were replaced by veteran players and our bench has been made up of 65 year olds since then. As for the lineup, Lucroy looks like he's here to stay, but off the top of my head, the only other notable home-grown talents who have cracked the lineup were Escobar and Cain and both were traded away, as have most of our other prospects with any chance of making the big leagues.

 

Every team has to occasionally rely on young, home-grown talent at various positions across the field. We may not have old players, but we have experienced players at basically every position but catcher. We can't forever be scared of bringing up guys like Green because they're rookies and they may pee their pants when they get on a MLB field. Sometimes rookies actually do well, and now seems like a good time to see if a rookie can take over for a struggling vet and help us in a pennant race.

[Raw Biz]

Probably the problem is that what position player are you going to send down or DFA for Green. 2 weeks ago i would have said Kotsay but you need him for Braun insurance. Counsell is still a veteran leader, on a team with few, so you need him on your team regardless of his struggles. I don't think you can just drop McGehee as you have no idea what Green is going to do in the bigs, and to put a 24 year old kid in the middle of pennant race is going to be tough. Same thing goes for Yuni B.

 

Threfore unless you loose an arm in the pen and drop dillard or someone, I just don't see it happening right now.

This veteran stuff is stupid. Weeks, Fielder, Braun, Hart have all been in the league for at least 5 years now. Kotsay still brings that "veteran presence." Yuni's been around for 7 years. Why do you need a player who brings nothing to the table besides having been in the league for 15 years? If that was the case, we could just have Schroeder come sit in the dugout during the games.

As for players that could be sent down/cut, Counsell should be cut/retire. Wilson could be sent down if you still want Counsell. Sure you risk losing him to waivers but if we're working on an upgrade at SS already, who cares. McGehee could also be sent down to work on his swing (less likely). What they should have done was put Braun on the DL after he didn't get better after a week. Then they could have called up Green to see what he had while Braun healed. Then you make the decision when Braun comes back. If Braun was healthy, then Kotsay could've been expendable too. There were plenty (and still are some) options.

[Raw Biz]

You're probably right that Nelson probably just happened to be there at the time when Melvin was changing gears anyway, but that year we were going with a young bench and Nelson and another young player who's name escapes me started off slow.

Chris Duffy, who was 29. And this was 2009, not 2007.

[monty57]

What they should have done was put Braun on the DL after he didn't get better after a week.

 

Amen. From hearing him in interviews, it sounded to me like he was pushing himself so he could get a game in with the Brewers prior to the All Star game so that he could start the All Star game. With pulled muscles, the best cure is usually just resting them. Pushing them at all just aggrevates the injury and puts you back to square one. I sure hope this isn't a nagging injury all year which could have been avoided by an early DL stint.

 

Chris Duffy, who was 29. And this was 2009, not 2007.

 

Thank you. Maybe my mind was remembering him as young when really he just didn't have much MLB experience. The 37 PAs he got for Milwaukee that year signaled the end of a listless 791 PA career.

 

If that was the case, we could just have Schroeder come sit in the dugout during the games.

 

He'd be a better catching option than Wil Nieves.

[patrickgpe]

As for players that could be sent down/cut, Counsell should be cut/retire. Wilson could be sent down if you still want Counsell.

 

I'd be fine with bringing up Green and DFA'ing Wilson. I'm fairly confident that the brewers can get a player just as good as Wilson off of the WW or for a low level prospect if Green fizzles. While his numbers don't justify a major league roster spot, i just don't see them getting rid of Counsell.

[Raw Biz]

As for players that could be sent down/cut, Counsell should be cut/retire. Wilson could be sent down if you still want Counsell.

 

I'd be fine with bringing up Green and DFA'ing Wilson. I'm fairly confident that the brewers can get a player just as good as Wilson off of the WW or for a low level prospect if Green fizzles. While his numbers don't justify a major league roster spot, i just don't see them getting rid of Counsell.

I could actually see him retiring on his bobblehead day in a few weeks if he still hasn't gotten a hit by then. That would be over two months without a hit. Even if he does get a hit or two, I could see it happening. I like him but he should hang it up and just stay on as a coach or something.