The Bring up Taylor Green Thread

[TheCrew]

Look, there are plenty of examples of players having horrible long stretches not unlike McGehee and coming out of it and closing out a season strong. It seems to me that we went through this with Jenkins a few times. You can't realistically expect an organization that committed to a guy to not give that guy ample time to get himself straightened out.

For a guy that only has a 1.5 seasons of success at the MLB level, I'd say nearly 100 games is ample time. It's not like we are in May anymore folks - this isn't a knee jerk reaction. Some have been waiting for the floor to fall out on McGehee since 2009 - not because we don't like the guy, it's just that his minor league numbers indicated that his level of success at the MLB level was not going to sustainable.

[FVBrewerFan]

The part I never understand is that bringing up Green doesn't preclude you from bringing up McGehee again later. It really is one of those "can't lose" situations. If you're right and Green just can't handle Major League pitching, you send him back down and bring McGehee back. Either way, you have nothing to lose. McGehee gets some time out of the spotlight to work on his swing...his head...whatever the issues are.

 

But I don't think Gren would fail. I really find it hard to believe he wouldn't OPS over .600. What really makes this dumbfounding is that this is supposed to be an "all in" year and they're living with the offense and defense of McGehee and Yuni.

[Thurston Fluff]

The part I never understand is that bringing up Green doesn't preclude you from bringing up McGehee again later. It really is one of those "can't lose" situations. If you're right and Green just can't handle Major League pitching, you send him back down and bring McGehee back. Either way, you have nothing to lose. McGehee gets some time out of the spotlight to work on his swing...his head...whatever the issues are.

 

Unless Green Barnwells it and MaGehee slips even further down the hole he's stuck in. Sending guys down isn't a magic elixir and believing it can't get worse is challenging worse. Never challenge worse. It has a way of proving you wrong. Somewhere along the line it has to be addressed. I am not so sure it has to be in July.

[FVBrewerFan]

True, June would have been better.

[monty57]

The part I never understand is that bringing up Green doesn't preclude you from bringing up McGehee again later. It really is one of those "can't lose" situations. If you're right and Green just can't handle Major League pitching, you send him back down and bring McGehee back. Either way, you have nothing to lose. McGehee gets some time out of the spotlight to work on his swing...his head...whatever the issues are.

 

Unless Green Barnwells it and MaGehee slips even further down the hole he's stuck in. Sending guys down isn't a magic elixir and believing it can't get worse is challenging worse. Never challenge worse. It has a way of proving you wrong. Somewhere along the line it has to be addressed. I am not so sure it has to be in July.

I agree that sending McGehee down could have bad consequences, so I think the move doesn't have to be that drastic. Simply bring up Green to "soft platoon" with McGehee. All your losing is the bad SS (Counsell, Wilson or Betancourt) who would be replaced by Green. Green wouldn't be "thrown to the wolves," as he'd be eased in by starting in a platoon. You wouldn't garner mutiny by McGehee's friends on the team by sending him to the minors (if that would be an issue, as they have to know he's been terrible). If both players are bad, you're no worse off than you are now. If one player plays well, he gets the majority of the playing time. If both play well, then we've gone from a terrible situation to a great situation.

[WisconsinSportsRule]

But I don't think Gren would fail. I really find it hard to believe he wouldn't OPS over .600. What really makes this dumbfounding is that this is supposed to be an "all in" year and they're living with the offense and defense of McGehee and Yuni.

This is the thing that bugs me the most. We're in a division that's up for grabs and also in a year in which most believe we've gone all in, yet Melvin has an in house replacement to solve one of the issues on this team and he won't do it. How long is Melvin going to wait to pull the plug on McGehee starting? What else does Green have to do in AAA to get a chance? No one is saying he's going to be a savior, but they won't even give him a chance!

Do we have to show up to Miller Park with "Call up Taylor Green" signs? When I heard Gord Ash on postgame a few weeks ago mention that Green was a 'surprise' I knew they weren't seriously considering him, but I don't know how much longer they can afford to wait. I'm not going to give up on Casey, but I want the best players out there and no reason to think Green can't outperform Casey at this point.

 

[Oldcity]

Melvin is worried about sticking a young player doing well into a pennant race? He should be worried about a sub-.600 OPS third baseman with no range into a pennant race.

Most of this discussion has been about McGehee's terrible offense this year, but his defense has been just as bad. He has zero range. Green is an upgrade offensively and defensively.

[TheCrew]

The real head scratcher is that it took RR until July to get McGehee out of the 5 hole.

[theavrock]

Every day I come check BF expecting to see at the top of the Forum a headline proclaiming McGehee sent down and Green up. I don't know why I still do it.

 

.312 .390 .532 is Green's slash line today.

 

It is absolutely mind boggling that this has not happened yet. It would be one thing if McGehee was Mike Schmidt with the glove, but he has been awful on that side of the field as well. I know that we nitpick everything here, but sticking with McGehee defies logic right now.

 

He has options, send him down and let him figure it out without the pressure of a team that is "going for it." If Green fails at the same epic level that McGehee has thus far offensively at least we have better defense.

[RightFieldCoder]

MillerBombers wrote:

 

I would

like to compare it to you have $1. You can risk that dollar and either

receive $50 (Green plays well overall), $10 (Green improves defense at

third but hits similar to McGehee) or $0 (Green falters). Who wouldn't

take that opportunity, you are out a dollar at the worst.

It depends on what you think the odds are. If you think the $50 and $10 are each one in a million chance, it is a bad deal. Especially if you think there is a 75% chance that the police are going to raid the place and arrest everyone for illegal gambling.

I have been anti-McPumpkin for a while. I thought we should have traded him before the '10 season started. I felt the fairy godmother dust would wear off sooner or later, and I didn't want to have him when the clock strikes midnight. With that in mind, it is possible that calling up Green will be worse. What if after 15 days (or whatever the minimum time spent in the minors is) Green is OPSing .500 with horrible defense and Casey is feasting on minor pitching. Do you bring swap them back out? What if Casey can only hit minor pitching and continues to be horrid in the majors? Melvin is then in a no win situation.

We need to trade for someone (actually two people) to man the left side of the infield. I don't care if they are one dimensional. We have the offense and pitching. We need some defense.

 

[Raw Biz]

MillerBombers wrote:

 

I would

like to compare it to you have $1. You can risk that dollar and either

receive $50 (Green plays well overall), $10 (Green improves defense at

third but hits similar to McGehee) or $0 (Green falters). Who wouldn't

take that opportunity, you are out a dollar at the worst.

It depends on what you think the odds are. If you think the $50 and $10 are each one in a million chance, it is a bad deal. Especially if you think there is a 75% chance that the police are going to raid the place and arrest everyone for illegal gambling.

I have been anti-McPumpkin for a while. I thought we should have traded him before the '10 season started. I felt the fairy godmother dust would wear off sooner or later, and I didn't want to have him when the clock strikes midnight. With that in mind, it is possible that calling up Green will be worse. What if after 15 days (or whatever the minimum time spent in the minors is) Green is OPSing .500 with horrible defense and Casey is feasting on minor pitching. Do you bring swap them back out? What if Casey can only hit minor pitching and continues to be horrid in the majors? Melvin is then in a no win situation.

Then we would be in the same exact position we are now. Call up Green and give him a shot while still trying to find a solution through trade. If a trade doesn't happen, then we will have seen what Green can do. If a trade does happen, great, send Green back down if you want. However, I highly doubt Green would play both horrible defense and have a horrible offense. Maybe the same offense as McGehee but he should at least be average defensively.

[geddymd73]

Pretty sure bringing up Green is just a wasted option on a guy with only 85 AAA games under his belt. The track record for just about everyone who has come up this year has not been very good. Even Gamel was tearing it up in AAA, and just couldn't get it together at the plate while he was here. For a most of what we have, the step between AAA and the majors is a lot higher than they are prepared for. Considering Boggs and Gamel, I can only take AAA numbers with a grain of salt. I don't see Green possibly being any more of an upside than Josh Wilson.

 

If it were September, sure you could call him up, but throwing him in after the all-star break on a team still in contention is not the way to break him in.

[The Truth]

We cannot afford to have the same offense or "a little bit better" offense than what Casey is producing, even with slightly better defense (by most accounts, Green isn't exactly Brooks Robinson in the field either, even if he is better than Casey). We need substantially better offense than what Casey has produced, one would think at least a .750 OPS, if we are going to be a playoff team

 

So far at least it seems like the Brewers front office doesn't think Green will be that big of an upgrade. I think they are trying to work out a big trade for someone like David Wright or Aramis Ramirez

 

It is worth noting that McGehee's career minor league OPS was only .741 --- this current cold streak is not exactly shocking when taken in that context

 

A .587 OPS is brutally bad. They reallly need to stop trotting him out every day

[derflotr]

Melvin's always preferred veteran guys with major league experience. I think that's one of his biggest priorities in player evaluation. He puts a lot more into intangibles and the human element than your average brewerfan.net poster, I would think. In his defense, I have to think someone like Casey McGehee would be much more comfortable in a high-leverage situation than a newcomer like Green because he's been there before. You don't know how someone will react to that increased pressure and spotlight. I'm ready to see Green in a Brewers uniform but I understand why it hasn't happened.

[endaround]

Melvin has always jetisoned guys with major league experience to play better prospects. Its how Weeks got his job, it how Lucroy got his job, its how McGehee got his job, its how Braun got his job.

[TheCrew]

We cannot afford to have the same offense or "a little bit better" offense than what Casey is producing, even with slightly better defense (by most accounts, Green isn't exactly Brooks Robinson in the field either, even if he is better than Casey). We need substantially better offense than what Casey has produced, one would think at least a .750 OPS, if we are going to be a playoff team

 

So far at least it seems like the Brewers front office doesn't think Green will be that big of an upgrade. I think they are trying to work out a big trade for someone like David Wright or Aramis Ramirez

 

It is worth noting that McGehee's career minor league OPS was only .741 --- this current cold streak is not exactly shocking when taken in that context

 

A .587 OPS is brutally bad. They reallly need to stop trotting him out every day

No, the Brewers can live with that bat at 3rd - heck they can deal with both those bats on the left side of the infield, IF - and I stress IF - they play good defense. Problem is, neither guy is producing like they were expected to at the plate.

 

Too many people are hung up on what casey did over an 18 month stretch rather than looking at his entire body of work. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Betancourt is not the biggest problem in the infield right now. The sad thing is, there is an internal option at 3b - there isn't at ss - yet no move is being made. Green turns 25 this year - it's time to see if he can hack it in the big leagues....... if your not planning on giving him a shot soon - especially when he is producing at the level he is - what is the point of even having the guy in the system then.

[trwi7]

it how Lucroy got his job

Lucroy got his job because Zaun got hurt, not because of anything Melvin did.

 

[TheCrew07]

I don't think Green is coming up anytime soon.

As far as trades go, Melvin is ultra conservative, he only makes trades he knows have very little chance of backfiring on him. I'll think he's more likely to trade for a 3B, a known quantity, before calling up Green in the short-term. I also don't think Melvin (and this might be Nichols influence) is willing to move players around the way we are looking to get the players in the position they will succeed defensively. For example, because Melvin locked up Weeks, in his mind Lawrie became expendable because we had a long-term 2B, so then Lawrie became Marcum... except that most of us on the MiLB forum thought that while Lawrie was athletic enough to play 2B he would probably end up in a corner spot. So Lawrie wasn't necessarily expendable, he could have easily slid over to 3B since the organization moved Gamel to 1B solidifying the corner IF spots for years to come. The organization still had a fall back option in Farris and Gennett working his way up at 2B. Clearly Melvin and Co were never as concerned about McGehee as many of us on this board were, even though they admitted they never expected him to break out like he did. Melvin has a way of backing himself into corners with severely limited options in front of him. Not just a Marcum/Lawrie thing, but in general, it seems that he tends to end up in places that he doesn't see coming, like how awful the starting pitching turned out to be the last 2 years, and now with McGehee regressing... only he's running out prospects to make deals with now, and he still has SS to worry about as well.

Many posters on the forum have been high on Green for a long time as the eventual big league 3B, the talk quieted after last year, but now that he's back hitting that drum is getting beat again. Honestly I was always on the Gamel bangwagon, because he had all the tools to be a plus defender, but just never got there. I don't think the organization is as high on Green as we are, they started him in AA this year pushing Wheeler past him, and now they are moving Gamel back over to 3B to get reps. I'm not sure how Green could possibly put up a worse line than McGehee has thus far, and he would likely be a fair upgrade defensively, but it doesn't seem like he's truly on Melvin's radar.

I think Melvin will look to address SS first and roll with McGehee hoping he turns it around. If Green is still hitting in mid August and McGehee is still stinking it up, then he might do something about it like the Hardy situation. I don't like Gamel moving back to 3B this season, I'd rather Green get a shot, but McGehee had 2 hits and a sac fly the other day so he bought himself more time as far RR and DM are concerned, he's "on the verge" again...

[And That]

Pretty sure bringing up Green is just a wasted option on a guy with only 85 AAA games under his belt.

He wouldn't burn an option if he weren't sent down. As it is, he doesn't have to stick with the big club until 2014 if added to the 40-man right now and then optioned. That's some time to make a decision on him.

Even Gamel was tearing it up in AAA, and just couldn't get it together at the plate while he was here.

Because Gamel did X, we should therefore be fearful that Green will do X? I don't buy it.

[gregmag]

Do we know anything about Green to suggest that struggling at this level, right now, would mess up his head? Because if we don't, then I don't think the argument that "you can't bring up a rookie in a pennant race" holds any water. It isn't like you're asking him to be the savior of the team. You're just asking him not to stink up the joint, and even if he does -- no harm no foul, go back and get some seasoning.

 

Good teams take calculated gambles. This team needs to take a step forward, and if you consider all available options to improve in terms of (a) evidence of likely success and (b) resources needed to make the move, Green provides BY FAR the greatest likelihood of a quick improvement. Trying him costs you nothing, and the upside return is significant.

 

As for McGehee, he has now had plenty of time. His minor league numbers indicated that he wouldn't hit much but would play strong defense. He has now had 1.5 years as a good (not great) MLB hitter and a half season as one of the worst hitters in the game, plus his defense has died on the vine. Yes, he could recover, but we have no good reason to believe he will. If the Brewers want to win, he has to sit.

[endaround]

it how Lucroy got his job

Lucroy got his job because Zaun got hurt, not because of anything Melvin did.

Rivera wasn't handed the job and a Treanor type wasn't sought out

[Funketown]

Is McGehee a legitimate zero tool player at this point? He hits for a low average, hits for almost no power, is a horrible base runner, and has little range in the field. His arm isn't bad, but it's probably no better than average.

[TheCrew]

As far as trades go, Melvin is ultra conservative, he only makes trades he knows have very little chance of backfiring on him. I'll think he's more likely to trade for a 3B, a known quantity, before calling up Green in the short-term. I also don't think Melvin (and this might be Nichols influence) is willing to move players around the way we are looking to get the players in the position they will succeed defensively. For example, because Melvin locked up Weeks, in his mind Lawrie became expendable because we had a long-term 2B, so then Lawrie became Marcum... except that most of us on the MiLB forum thought that while Lawrie was athletic enough to play 2B he would probably end up in a corner spot. So Lawrie wasn't necessarily expendable, he could have easily slid over to 3B since the organization moved Gamel to 1B solidifying the corner IF spots for years to come. The organization still had a fall back option in Farris and Gennett working his way up at 2B. Clearly Melvin and Co were never as concerned about McGehee as many of us on this board were, even though they admitted they never expected him to break out like he did. Melvin has a way of backing himself into corners with severely limited options in front of him. Not just a Marcum/Lawrie thing, but in general, it seems that he tends to end up in places that he doesn't see coming, like how awful the starting pitching turned out to be the last 2 years, and now with McGehee regressing... only he's running out prospects to make deals with now, and he still has SS to worry about as well.

 

I know you are talking in more general terms overall, but Lawrie at 3B would have been a longshot to stick - I'll admit I don't follow MiLB nearly as much as others, but from what I had read he wasn't exactly impressing at 2B. Melvin also traded for Marcum a few months before Rickie was locked up, the two moves didn't have anything to do with each other. Lawrie was expendable because he is projecting (again from what I've read) as a corner OF'er - for a guy who was drafted as a catcher with a power bat......... he loses a lot of value when he suddenly is an OF'er. Plus, the Brewers are set in the corners for years. Not to mention, I imagine the front office had a bit of concern when the kid they gave a check to, with six zeroes on it mind you, is duct taping 40oz bottles of malt liquor to his hand..............

[Ayt]

I think we need to give McGehee a couple more seasons to snap out of his slump.

[danzig6767]

We cannot afford to have the same offense or "a little bit better" offense than what Casey is producing, even with slightly better defense (by most accounts, Green isn't exactly Brooks Robinson in the field either, even if he is better than Casey). We need substantially better offense than what Casey has produced, one would think at least a .750 OPS, if we are going to be a playoff team

 

So far at least it seems like the Brewers front office doesn't think Green will be that big of an upgrade. I think they are trying to work out a big trade for someone like David Wright or Aramis Ramirez

 

It is worth noting that McGehee's career minor league OPS was only .741 --- this current cold streak is not exactly shocking when taken in that context

 

A .587 OPS is brutally bad. They reallly need to stop trotting him out every day

That .587 OPS includes his month of April with a .752 OPS.

 

If you went and combined his numbers since May 1st through about 70 games, he has an OPS only slightly over the .500 mark. Mix in his statue like defensive range and 12 errors, Casey a hasn't just been terrible over the last 70 games, he's been epically bad over that stretch. Even Will Nieves likely could have posted better hitting numbers over those same 70 games, and we also have McGehee's playing like he's in mud defense.

 

It's not easy for a major league hitter to hit as poorly as Casey has hit the last 70ish games, we aren't talking about a slump here. This is nearly half a season of utter futility which has been inflicted on the Brewers team.

If

putting up numbers in AAA meant instant success at the major league

level, rumors would be rampant about teams wanting to pick up 35 year

old Cody Ransom, who can play 3B and SS and currently has a 1.055 OPS

for Reno and guys like Lyle Mouton would have been major league All

Stars.

 

Green's played just 85 games at AAA, and has never played in the majors.

The thought that "he has nothing to prove at AAA" is wishful thinking

for a guy who was slowed by injuries the previous two seasons. He needs

to prove he can put up numbers over a full season at AAA.

Obviously it's quite possible that Green could come up and not tear the cover off the ball. Fans aren't expecting that. It literally would be hard by simple odds though for Green to come up and be worse at the plate than McGehee has been over the last 70 games, much less i don't think it's physically possible for Green to have less range than Casey at third.

 

If McGehee had been in some fairly common 15-20 game slump, of course it would make no sense for a GM to rush to grab a replacement in AAA. We aren't talking about just a slump here and not talking about 15-20 games. We are talking about 70 games of barely above .500 OPS production and terrible defense. Green would almost have to be forced to play with a patch on one eyes to do worse.