The Bring up Taylor Green Thread

[BuckyBrewer61]

You don't want near rookies heading into the playoffs.

I'm sorry but I believe this is little more than a cliche. Some rookies acclimate to the big leagues just fine, you never know til you find out. I would say that I'd much rather have a capable rookie heading into the playoffs than continue starting a .586 OPS'ing defensive liability 3rd baseman who may prevent you altogether from getting into the playoffs.

See: Posey, Buster.

[Funketown]

Here's all I can come up with:

 

Green was dating Melvin's daughter and cheated on her with Roenicke's son's fiancee. When confronted, he cursed out their wives and made his getaway by stealing Attanasio's car.

You forgot that Green ran over Attanasio's dog with that car, and then went on to reverse over the dog again and again and again. Snuggles didn't stand a chance...

[thebruce44]

For those who ask why McGehee gets the star treatment I'd suggest his numbers the last two years are star worthy. If you project his 2009 numbers for a full year he'd have been an MVP contender.

Thats just completely false. Projected for a full season in 2009, he would have been around 3.5 WAR, which wouldn't have even been Brewer team MVP.

Hell, you want to project 2009 Brewers numbers over a full season and Counsell would have ended up ahead of McGehee at 4.1 WAR.

In short, he doesn't deserve star treatment. He had a few seasons playing above what his minor league numbers indicated he was capable of on offense while still being terrible on defense. JJ Hardy had less of a leash and he had defense and a history to fall back on.

[panthernick]

Interesting piece from mccalvy about the krod trade. The players on the list cannot be brought up to the big leagues.....

[logan82]

At this point I wonder if they are just waiting to see if they can get say Ramirez cheap and not burn an option on Green since its only 4 days. I've been talking about Green now since June 4th. What's another 4 days?

How long will Green stay down that using an option really matters? Will he realistically stay in the minors until 2013?

[brettac1]

Interesting piece from mccalvy about the krod trade. The players on the list cannot be brought up to the big leagues.....

Yeah, he has to be on the list.

[panthernick]

Interesting piece from mccalvy about the krod trade. The players on the list cannot be brought up to the big leagues.....

Yeah, he has to be on the list.

 

 

That would be disappointing to me. Sticking with the guy through so much and then allowing him to go when thing turnaround.

[LouisEly]

Once again how much of that was the players and how much was the manager?

 

If Loe shouldn't be facing lefties, then he's not good enough to be the setup guy and they need someone better. If he isn't good enough to be facing lefties as a setup man, then who should? Hawkins and Saito have been hurt and can't be relied on to be healthy. Braddock isn't healthy between the ears and can't be relied on. So who is left to pitch those high leverage innings? Estrada? Dillard? McClendon? If Loe isn't good enough then they need someone else!

 

There is simply no way 1 reliever is a bigger problem than having 2 of the worst players in the league at their starting positions every inning of every game.

 

Because in a majority of those innings one or both of those position players may not be involved in as much as one play or one pitch, and some of those ABs/fielding chances may come in 11-2, 8-1, 12-3 games where it makes no difference in the outcome of the game. When the setup guy comes in he is involved in every single pitch when he is in, and usually it is in a high leverage situation where there isn't more than a 3 run difference in the score. That's why; the pitches, plays, and runs involved with the setup guy - while overall fewer than the position player - have a lot more impact on the outcome of the game. "High-leverage" - those are the key words.

 

People estimate that McGehee and Betancourt are around -1 WAR each. That to me means two additional losses. Loe has seven blown saves and seven losses; seven times he entered the game with the Brewers in the lead and exited with the Brewers no longer having the lead, and seven times he entered the game with the Brewers not losing and exited with the Brewers losing and not able to overcome the deficit and end up losing. No reliever is going to be perfect, but you can't tell me that seven blown saves and seven losses is well below average for a setup guy. If he only had 3 blown saves & 3 losses the Brewers could have four more wins.

 

4 more wins > 2 more losses. That's just math.

 

The Brewers at one point had five more blown saves than league average. If they convert four of those - just to get to league average - that's four more wins. McGehee and Betancourt mean two additional losses. Again, 4 > 2. I just don't know how to explain it.

[Gobias Industries]

Interesting piece from mccalvy about the krod trade. The players on the list cannot be brought up to the big leagues.....

Yeah, he has to be on the list.

The only thing I don't get is if he is on the list, what the hell are the Mets waiting for? I know they have Wright at 3b but he's been hurt and Green can play 2b too.

 

I really hope he's not. I was expecting guys more on the level of Stetter/McClendon.

[MillerParkSouth]

When I saw that about the K-Rod trade I also thought that Green is on the PTBNL list, which kind of stinks because if Casey continues to stink, we have nobody to play 3rd base. Plus it seems like a lot to give up for a couple of months of K-Rod.

[theavrock]

Green has to be on that list. There is no other reason he is not up here.

 

/thread

[FVBrewerFan]

If Green is on the list and the Mets haven't jumped on him yet, I'm terrified who else is on the list. Because it only stands to reason there would have to be at least one more prospect on the list as good or possibly better than Green. This would also explain why the Mets jumped at DM's offer so quickly.

[TheCrew07]

People estimate that McGehee and Betancourt are around -1 WAR each. That to me means two additional losses. Loe has seven blown saves and seven losses; seven times he entered the game with the Brewers in the lead and exited with the Brewers no longer having the lead, and seven times he entered the game with the Brewers not losing and exited with the Brewers losing and not able to overcome the deficit and end up losing. No reliever is going to be perfect, but you can't tell me that seven blown saves and seven losses is well below average for a setup guy. If he only had 3 blown saves & 3 losses the Brewers could have four more wins.

 

4 more wins > 2 more losses. That's just math.

 

The Brewers at one point had five more blown saves than league average. If they convert four of those - just to get to league average - that's four more wins. McGehee and Betancourt mean two additional losses. Again, 4 > 2. I just don't know how to explain it.

So on one hand you use WAR, and on the other you straight wins and losses? How is that an objective and/or fair assessment of his value? Regardless you're neglecting the idea that he shouldn't have been used in some of those situations to begin with, the outcome was predictable.

 

Simple math... statisticians will have us believe that 10 runs is equal to 1 win which means that McGehee and Betancourt were a combined -20 runs on the season... Loe has only given up 24 runs all season, if he only gives up 14 his ERA is in the 2s and people are talking about how well he's pitched all season. Unless you're suggesting that relievers shouldn't ever give up runs? As I said previously, there's simply no way he's had a greater a negative impact even if you believe he should have been pitching in every single one of those situations. As it stands Loe is about a league average relief pitcher who hasn't been utilized to his strengths. He's a scratch player, McGehee and Betancourt both carry negative value. If you like the K-Rod trade that's fine, but it's not sensible to suggest that any reliever will have a greater impact over any reasonable sample size than 2 position players.

 

Loe isn't K-Rod, but he's not a black hole (negative value) on the team either. The greater need is always the starting pitching and position players... fix those spots first, then worry about the bullpen.

[Baldkin]

People estimate that McGehee and Betancourt are around -1 WAR each. That to me means two additional losses. Loe has seven blown saves and seven losses; seven times he entered the game with the Brewers in the lead and exited with the Brewers no longer having the lead, and seven times he entered the game with the Brewers not losing and exited with the Brewers losing and not able to overcome the deficit and end up losing. No reliever is going to be perfect, but you can't tell me that seven blown saves and seven losses is well below average for a setup guy. If he only had 3 blown saves & 3 losses the Brewers could have four more wins.

 

4 more wins > 2 more losses. That's just math.

 

The Brewers at one point had five more blown saves than league average. If they convert four of those - just to get to league average - that's four more wins. McGehee and Betancourt mean two additional losses. Again, 4 > 2. I just don't know how to explain it.

Let's use WPA then. Win probability added. This takes game leverage situations into account. Season totals (now, this is hitting only, does not include horrible defense): McGeheee -1.53, Betancourt: -1.99, Loe -1.79. So, purely on their terrible hitting alone, McGehee and Betancourt have cost the Brewers twice as much as Loe.

[FoxyFoxes]

For once. I was going to bump this thread to make it about Craig Counsell and not CAsey Mack.............Green would be a better PH option at this point than Craiger.

[danzig6767]

If Green is on the list and the Mets haven't jumped on him yet, I'm terrified who else is on the list. Because it only stands to reason there would have to be at least one more prospect on the list as good or possibly better than Green. This would also explain why the Mets jumped at DM's offer so quickly.

Even if Green is on the list which i fear more and more, the Mets have no reason to make a decision before the deadline of September 1st. In fact, it makes perfect sense to wait until the day they are required to make a decision. What is gained by deciding now instead of a month from now where their scouts get more time to watch all five players?

[monty57]

Even if Green is on the list which i fear more and more, the Mets have no reason to make a decision before the deadline of September 1st. In fact, it makes perfect sense to wait until the day they are required to make a decision. What is gained by deciding now instead of a month from now where their scouts get more time to watch all five players?

 

And they get to keep the injury risk on the Brewers. If there are two players of equal value, unless you think the previous team is screwing something up in their training, or unless you are immediately going to place them on your MLB roster, you let them both continue to play for the previous team as long as you can. If one of them gets seriously injured in the next month+, you simply take the other player.

 

I liked the K-Rod move, as picking up one of the best relievers in the game was seemingly the only thing that was going to get Roenicke to move Loe out of the "8th inning guy" role. However, that was when the PTBNL's were described as "one guy with some MLB experience, but not a major player" (i.e. McClendon, Dillard, DiFelice) and the other was "a mid-tier prospect who has a chance of someday making a MLB roster." Maybe I'm wrong, but I personally think Green is better than that. If he is on the list, and if there are other players of around equal value on the list, then I dislike the move, even though I think it helps this year's team quite a bit. We would have just given away what could potentially be a significant part of our future.

 

Let's use WPA then. Win probability added. This takes game leverage situations into account. Season totals (now, this is hitting only, does not include horrible defense): McGeheee -1.53, Betancourt: -1.99, Loe -1.79. So, purely on their terrible hitting alone, McGehee and Betancourt have cost the Brewers twice as much as Loe.

 

If I'm reading that correctly, it shows that Loe has cost the team more than McGehee and almost as much as Betancourt. I don't think anyone would argue that Loe has cost the team more than McGehee and Betancourt combined. If used correctly (as we saw in last night's game), Loe can be valueable to this team. The K-Rod deal forced Roenicke to move Loe out of the 8th inning role. He could have done it without the trade, and simply used Saito and Hawkins in the 8th inning.

 

I know it sounds like I'm arguing both sides here. K-Rod makes this team better, and improves our chances of making the playoffs, but now I won't be comfortable about the trade until I see who we gave up. Shame on me for listening to Doug Melvin after the trade and taking him at his word.

[gregmag]

People estimate that McGehee and Betancourt are around -1 WAR each. That to me means two additional losses. Loe has seven blown saves and seven losses; seven times he entered the game with the Brewers in the lead and exited with the Brewers no longer having the lead, and seven times he entered the game with the Brewers not losing and exited with the Brewers losing and not able to overcome the deficit and end up losing. No reliever is going to be perfect, but you can't tell me that seven blown saves and seven losses is well below average for a setup guy. If he only had 3 blown saves & 3 losses the Brewers could have four more wins.

 

4 more wins > 2 more losses. That's just math.

It's math, but with very faulty logic setting it up. WAR tries to represent a player's aggregate responsibility for wins and losses, taking all factors into account. In contrast, you're assuming that a relief pitcher's losses and blown saves beyond what's (your arbitrary definition of) average make the relief pitcher fully responsible for losing those games -- as if the other pitchers, hitters, and defensive players who didn't succeed at various points in the game have nothing to do with the result. You're comparing apples to something that isn't even a fruit.

[FVBrewerFan]

And they get to keep the injury risk on the Brewers. If there are two players of equal value, unless you think the previous team is screwing something up in their training, or unless you are immediately going to place them on your MLB roster, you let them both continue to play for the previous team as long as you can. If one of them gets seriously injured in the next month+, you simply take the other player.

 

 

This is my point. There may be at least one player with equal or higher value than Green on the list. Most of us were under the impression that there was nobody near this level on the list. So come September the Mets could be getting Green and another player similar to him in status. That's giving up a lot more for KRod than I envisioned.

[Funketown]

If they get Green for K-Rod while McGehee continues to struggle this will be a horrible trade. I'm really starting to wonder if Green is part of the deal, and I have a bad feeling he is in the deal.

[FoxyFoxes]

Not that depth is a bad thing, but why woudl the Mets want Green when they have Wright/Davis on the corners. 2nd base???????

[FVBrewerFan]

Would make sense since Green is playing a lot of 2B these days.

[jmeks23]

Well if Green is included in the list of players, then Melvin must really think he isn't going to be much at the bigs.

[topper09er]

Let's use WPA then. Win probability added. This takes game leverage situations into account. Season totals (now, this is hitting only, does not include horrible defense): McGeheee -1.53, Betancourt: -1.99, Loe -1.79. So, purely on their terrible hitting alone, McGehee and Betancourt have cost the Brewers twice as much as Loe.

 

If I'm reading that correctly, it shows that Loe has cost the team more than McGehee and almost as much as Betancourt.

Not totally correct, this is only based on McGehee and Betancourt's offense, but their defense is just as bad compared to average and maybe worse. So maybe double those numbers to get a better comparison between them and Loe's negative impact on the team

[paul253]

Just watching the game here and if Weeks' injury is serious Taylor Green would make so much sense to replace him you know Melvin wouldn't do it. At first I'm thinking "great Eric Farris is all we've got" but then I remembered Green plays second base too. Of course he'd be called up only to sit on the bench behind Counsell and Wilson.