The Bring up Taylor Green Thread

[Bombers]

1. I am sick of Counsell getting any At-bats. He is brutal.

2. McGehee has rendered himself a RH option for LHP for the remainder of the year

3. Taylor is hitting at a tune of .313 AVG, .390 OBP, .541 SLG in 281 AAA at bats this year.

 

Come on Doug - get it done! Put Counsell on the 15 day DL and leave him there until you want him back up in Sept.

[Invader3K]

It really is baffling why they adamantly refuse to call up Green. It doesn't even get mentioned as an option. It's looking like he has absolutely nothing to prove in AAA anymore. I don't buy that it would be "throwing him to the wolves" when he's been so dominant in AAA this year.

[MillerBombers]

1. I am sick of Counsell getting any At-bats. He is brutal.

2. McGehee has rendered himself a RH option for LHP for the remainder of the year

3. Taylor is hitting at a tune of .313 AVG, .390 OBP, .541 SLG in 281 AAA at bats this year.

 

Come on Doug - get it done! Put Counsell on the 15 day DL and leave him there until you want him back up in Sept.

Actually, McGehee has been so bad this year he isn't even much of an option vs. left handed pitching (AVG .245/OBP .300/SLG .360/OPS .660).

[Oldcity]

Does the local media even mention Green when they interview Doug/RRR?

[Invader3K]

Does the local media even mention Green when they interview Doug/RRR?

Doesn't seem like it. I don't know why his name barely ever gets mentioned. I've heard the morning guys on WSSP mention him occasionally, but that seems to be about it.

[razzzorsharp]

Now imagine if he was 22.

[MillerBombers]

Does the local media even mention Green when they interview Doug/RRR?

Doesn't seem like it. I don't know why his name barely ever gets mentioned. I've heard the morning guys on WSSP mention him occasionally, but that seems to be about it.

To be honest WSSP doesn't seem to have a lot of knowledge on the system outside a guy like Gamel. It is very frustrating not hearing the right questions get asked sometimes.

 

Then on a note regarding Melvin. I truly believe Doug Melvin's biggest issue sometimes is trying to prove everyone that he was right in the long run, rather than accepting maybe he was wrong and moving in a different direction.

[Invader3K]

To be honest WSSP doesn't seem to have a lot of knowledge on the system outside a guy like Gamel. It is very frustrating not hearing the right questions get asked sometimes.

 

Then on a note regarding Melvin. I truly believe Doug Melvin's biggest issue sometimes is trying to prove everyone that he was right in the long run, rather than accepting maybe he was wrong and moving in a different direction.

You're right about WSSP. Last week I heard one of their guys (sorry, forget who) talking about how they thought Luis Cruz might be one of the guys sent to the Mets for K-Rod. They realized eventually he wasn't in the organization anymore, but still...

I wonder about Melvin sometimes. It seems like he's willing to regularly make moves with the bullpen and send down underachievers, but he seems to take a very laissez faire approach with the position players on the MLB roster. I just don't get it. McGehee and Counsell both suck this year, but will probably be around all season. The bench has no pop, but Melvin won't try calling up anyone to help (outside Gamel's short stint, which was more due to interleague play). Shortstop has been an obvious black hole, but Melvin seems to be moving slowly to fix it. Just very odd roster management, and it's really exposed when a major piece like Braun gets hurt.

[bucksman4]

Does the local media even mention Green when they interview Doug/RRR?

 

 

I know for sure Haudricourt doesn't think about Green at all. On one of his recent appearances on 540ESPN he was asked about options for 3B if Caseys struggles continue. All he could come up with is bringing up Gamel and giving him a shot. If prominent local beat writers like Haud aren't aware of players like Green, how would they ever think to ask Melvin about bringing him up?

[yoshii8]

I'm sure Haurdicourt knows about Taylor Green, I think he just assumes that he's not an option because people in the organization don't bring him up at all.

 

It seems that many people are curious about this subject, so I'm kind of baffled as to why it's not a story yet. Maybe us fans should send the Brewers beat writers an e-mail to see why they aren't asking about Taylor Green?

[FoxyFoxes]

Yoshi beat me too it......let's email some beat writers and get some answers. I think it is time for Green.

[Warning Track Power]

To be honest WSSP doesn't seem to have a lot of knowledge on the system outside a guy like Gamel. It is very frustrating not hearing the right questions get asked sometimes.

 

Then on a note regarding Melvin. I truly believe Doug Melvin's biggest issue sometimes is trying to prove everyone that he was right in the long run, rather than accepting maybe he was wrong and moving in a different direction.

You're right about WSSP. Last week I heard one of their guys (sorry, forget who) talking about how they thought Luis Cruz might be one of the guys sent to the Mets for K-Rod. They realized eventually he wasn't in the organization anymore, but still...

I wonder about Melvin sometimes. It seems like he's willing to regularly make moves with the bullpen and send down underachievers, but he seems to take a very laissez faire approach with the position players on the MLB roster. I just don't get it. McGehee and Counsell both suck this year, but will probably be around all season. The bench has no pop, but Melvin won't try calling up anyone to help (outside Gamel's short stint, which was more due to interleague play). Shortstop has been an obvious black hole, but Melvin seems to be moving slowly to fix it. Just very odd roster management, and it's really exposed when a major piece like Braun gets hurt.

 

I think DM had to roll with YuBet to begin the season based on the financials and hope he did something that was justifiable to keep him as the everyday SS. Looking at the market today, I don't think DM is moving slowly. I think the market for an SS has yet to be clearly defined, meaning what is available doesn't represent a total package get that DM typically will go after (see Greinke, Sabathia, Marcum, Mench). If Reyes were to be available and our prospect cupboard wasn't relatively bare, I think he would've already been in Milwaukee. If we had the prospects we had in 2008 or pre-Marcum & Greinke trades, I think it likely Reyes or maybe even a HanRam would already be here. Similarly with JJ, if he hadn't signed with Baltimore I think DM would've given the necessary propsects to get him.

 

Unfortunately for us and DM, the SS market is littered with guys who are questionable returns. In 2011, the SS market includes guys who have been hurt (Furcal), who are defensive upgrades with mediocre sticks (Ryan, Jack Wilson), old guys (Carroll) or guys having down years (Desmond and Bartlett). I believe any or all of these guys represent an upgrade over YuBet but each one has so many question marks associated with them that the upgrade in 2011 may not be worth the cost of the prospect that is sent.

 

As for 3B, it is indefensible. Betemit is not the answer. Green may not be either but it is a very simple move to call him up and let his D play even if he hits .200. I'd rather have that then another below average defender at 3B like Betemit.

 

Honestly though, I'm beginning to expect something big in the next week or so. I think you're going to see something unexpectedly big to upgrade 3B. Judging by DM's past I wouldn't be surprised in the elast if he somehow figures a way to acquire a Aramis Ramirez, David Wright or Mark Reynolds type 3B. How that happens is anyones guess because I have no clue, just like I had no clue about us acquiring Greinke.

[Invader3K]

Honestly though, I'm beginning to expect something big in the next week or so. I think you're going to see something unexpectedly big to upgrade 3B. Judging by DM's past I wouldn't be surprised in the elast if he somehow figures a way to acquire a Aramis Ramirez, David Wright or Mark Reynolds type 3B. How that happens is anyones guess because I have no clue, just like I had no clue about us acquiring Greinke.

You may well be right on this part. I hope you are right.

I understand the market for acquiring a shortstop via trade is tough right now. That still didn't preclude Melvin from DFAing Betancourt a month ago, or at least making sure Roenicke used Wilson and Counsell earlier in the season. There was a stretch where those two were rotting on the bench and Betancourt was allowed free reign to suck every day at shortstop. I realize the internal options aren't great hitters, but at least their defense would have been better and they would have exhibited something resembling plate discipline.

 

[Warning Track Power]

Honestly though, I'm beginning to expect something big in the next week or so. I think you're going to see something unexpectedly big to upgrade 3B. Judging by DM's past I wouldn't be surprised in the elast if he somehow figures a way to acquire a Aramis Ramirez, David Wright or Mark Reynolds type 3B. How that happens is anyones guess because I have no clue, just like I had no clue about us acquiring Greinke.

You may well be right on this part. I hope you are right.

I understand the market for acquiring a shortstop via trade is tough right now. That still didn't preclude Melvin from DFAing Betancourt a month ago, or at least making sure Roenicke used Wilson and Counsell earlier in the season. There was a stretch where those two were rotting on the bench and Betancourt was allowed free reign to suck every day at shortstop. I realize the internal options aren't great hitters, but at least their defense would have been better and they would have exhibited something resembling plate discipline.

 

 

I'm with you on DFA'ing YuBet, however our other options are equally poor in my opinion. Counsell looks done. Nothing he has shown me in 2011 gives me any confidence he could hit over .200 and no matter how good he could he be on D, we can't start a sub .200 singles hitter. I'm definitely not comfortable with Wilson in anything other than a platoon. I don't mind him in the backup role he has now (6th IF/emergency OF) but I wouldn't even trust him in the Counsell role for 2012.

[JohnBriggs12]

If putting up numbers in AAA meant instant success at the major league level, rumors would be rampant about teams wanting to pick up 35 year old Cody Ransom, who can play 3B and SS and currently has a 1.055 OPS for Reno and guys like Lyle Mouton would have been major league All Stars.

 

Green's played just 85 games at AAA, and has never played in the majors. The thought that "he has nothing to prove at AAA" is wishful thinking for a guy who was slowed by injuries the previous two seasons. He needs to prove he can put up numbers over a full season at AAA.

 

I'm sure the Brewers are well aware of Green and that Melvin has poured over reports from his scouts and Don Money, who knows a thing or two about playing 3B. But it's obvious they don't think it's smart to stick him in the middle of a heated pennant race.

[Raw Biz]

If putting up numbers in AAA meant instant success at the major league level, rumors would be rampant about teams wanting to pick up 35 year old Cody Ransom, who can play 3B and SS and currently has a 1.055 OPS for Reno and guys like Lyle Mouton would have been major league All Stars.

 

Green's played just 85 games at AAA, and has never played in the majors. The thought that "he has nothing to prove at AAA" is wishful thinking for a guy who was slowed by injuries the previous two seasons. He needs to prove he can put up numbers over a full season at AAA.

 

I'm sure the Brewers are well aware of Green and that Melvin has poured over reports from his scouts and Don Money, who knows a thing or two about playing 3B. But it's obvious they don't think it's smart to stick him in the middle of a heated pennant race.

But why? This is always brought up but I don't think anybody's actually answered it. I understand that people think rookies will struggle. However, will he struggle so much that he would be worse than McGehee? He currently has a sub. 600 OPS, which is just brutal. I think Green could at least match that.

And even if he doesn't, he should play better defense than McGehee to make up for any struggles on offense. I could understand how the offense may not translate but the defense shouldn't be just fine. I know Green isn't a gold-glover but he should be better than McGehee. Some might also be worried about him struggling so bad it destroys his confidence but I don't buy that either. I just think at this point, why not at least give him a shot? McGehee never really proved himself in the majors until he was called up 2 years ago either and he did just fine (until this year obviously).

[kramnoj]

I truly believe Doug Melvin's biggest issue sometimes is trying to prove everyone that he was right in the long run, rather than accepting maybe he was wrong and moving in a different direction.

 

Why do you have this belief, rather than believing that Melvin is basically just too conservative, and hesitant to sit down a player when he believes that player has shown in the past that they could get the job done?

 

Melvin let Hardy OPS .667 until August 11th, and let the Brewers fall 6.5 games back before he finally demoted him. How is that an example of Melvin trying to prove to everyone that he was right?

 

I don't want to rehash the entire 2009 Hardy incident, but I do think it provides evidence contrary to your belief.

[fondybrewfan]

My personal inclination has always been that DM is trying as hard as he can to trade for a legitimate SS or 3B right now. If for some reason he can't get someone by the 7/31 trading deadline they will probably at least consider bringing up Green. Right now I think their view is that they don't want to bring him up and throw him to the wolves unless they absolutely have to. I also have to imagine he is a lock to be a September call up.

 

Of course we could make a pretty good argument that they have to bring up Green now.

[MillerBombers]

If putting up numbers in AAA meant instant success at the major league level, rumors would be rampant about teams wanting to pick up 35 year old Cody Ransom, who can play 3B and SS and currently has a 1.055 OPS for Reno and guys like Lyle Mouton would have been major league All Stars.

 

Green's played just 85 games at AAA, and has never played in the majors. The thought that "he has nothing to prove at AAA" is wishful thinking for a guy who was slowed by injuries the previous two seasons. He needs to prove he can put up numbers over a full season at AAA.

 

I'm sure the Brewers are well aware of Green and that Melvin has poured over reports from his scouts and Don Money, who knows a thing or two about playing 3B. But it's obvious they don't think it's smart to stick him in the middle of a heated pennant race.

I don't think anyone is trying to say he has nothing to prove at AAA. I used this analogy in the Hadley/Bartlett thread...

 

I would

like to compare it to you have $1. You can risk that dollar and either

receive $50 (Green plays well overall), $10 (Green improves defense at

third but hits similar to McGehee) or $0 (Green falters). Who wouldn't

take that opportunity, you are out a dollar at the worst.

 

McGehee has been awful and isn't even a platoon option with his splits vs. lefties. Melvin just seems stubborn to me when it comes to admitting mistakes (just my opinion). I fail to see what the huge issue is being stuck in the middle of a pennant race and bringing up Green. If you replace awful with at the worst case awful you still have awful.

[MillerBombers]

I truly believe Doug Melvin's biggest issue sometimes is trying to prove everyone that he was right in the long run, rather than accepting maybe he was wrong and moving in a different direction.

 

Why do you have this belief, rather than believing that Melvin is basically just too conservative, and hesitant to sit down a player when he believes that player has shown in the past that they could get the job done?

 

Melvin let Hardy OPS .667 until August 11th, and let the Brewers fall 6.5 games back before he finally demoted him. How is that an example of Melvin trying to prove to everyone that he was right?

 

I don't want to rehash the entire 2009 Hardy incident, but I do think it provides evidence contrary to your belief.

Isn't this providing evidence to possibly support my theory? Whether he wants to be right or is too conservative, I think we can both agree that it seems to be an issue and the same issue (holding on to hopes for too long).

[kramnoj]

Yes, we can both agree that Melvin is too conservative. Melvin has admitted that he can be too conservative.

 

But I think it's helpful to understand Melvin's frame of mind. Melvin will eventually sit Casey and bring up either Green or Gamel if Casey continues this level of play. While some believe that Melvin can't admit his mistakes, there is plenty of history to show that he will eventually improve a position if he has the resources to do so, and it makes sense.

 

It may happen too late this time, and if it does, there is a decent chance that it will cost Melvin his job.

[MillerBombers]

Yes, we can both agree that Melvin is too conservative. Melvin has admitted that he can be too conservative.

 

But I think it's helpful to understand Melvin's frame of mind. Melvin will eventually sit Casey and bring up either Green or Gamel if Casey continues this level of play. While some believe that Melvin can't admit his mistakes, there is plenty of history to show that he will eventually improve a position if he has the resources to do so, and it makes sense.

 

It may happen too late this time, and if it does, there is a decent chance that it will cost Melvin his job.

Works for me. My theory in Melvin wanting to be right could have more to do with me just venting.

[JohnBriggs12]

Look, there are plenty of examples of players having horrible long stretches not unlike McGehee and coming out of it and closing out a season strong. It seems to me that we went through this with Jenkins a few times. You can't realistically expect an organization that committed to a guy to not give that guy ample time to get himself straightened out.

 

We know Melvin is looking around for a veteran to rectify the situation and it appears there are some veterans available. Melvin prefers bringing in a veteran in a hot pennant race. Green is having a fine season, but he is as his name implies, he's very green. A lot of GM's think this way. Last year Daniel Hudson was dominating at AAA, but Kenny Williams didn't trust his being able to break in during a race so he dealt him to Arizona for Edwin Jackson. Now long term that looks like a really dumb deal because they didn't make the playoffs even though Jackson pitched well for them down the stretch.

 

I think we'll see a Betemit or a Dobbs or some other guy brought in to at least platoon with McGehee, and Green will head into spring with a shot at earning the full time job.

[And That]

Look, there are plenty of examples of players having horrible long stretches not unlike McGehee and coming out of it and closing out a season strong.

There are plenty more of examples of that not happening.

Green is having a fine season, but he is as his name implies, he's very green.

http://www.poormojo.org/pmjadaily/archives/Blank-Facepalm.gif

[reillymcshane]

One benefit that might come out of bringing up Green and sending down McGehee is that it would give Casey some breathing space to get his game back together.

 

No doubt he's under a lot of pressure to perform. That's the nature of the game. But I think sending him down and letting him regain his hitting stroke in a less pressure-filled situation might be the best thing. If he goes 0-20 at Nashville the Brewers aren't going through those pains. But if he can get things going after a few weeks or a month, then great. Nothing he is doing at the major league level is helping him now. Let him try to rebound where it doesn't hurt, and he has the time and space to work on things.