SS Upgrade: Realistically What Do You Expect?

[Funketown]

Despite his crappy year to this point, Furcal has more HR and RBI than Carroll in less than 40% of the PA.

Come on now, this isn't really fair. If we're just talking this season, Furcal is hitting .176/.240/.218/.458 and Carroll is hitting .285/.357/.353/.710.

 

I'm not sure what you have against Jamey Carroll. I know you say you don't like a hitter whose greatest asset is drawing a walk, but what of his .277 career batting average? He's hitting about .290 over the course of the last two seasons. Just because the guy can draw walks doesn't mean his only skill is drawing walks. He can't hit for power, but he does swing a decent bat.

[TooLiveBrew]

I'm not sure what you have against Jamey Carroll.

 

RockCo doesn't like that Carroll's 37

[RockCoCougars]

If we are talking small sample sizes, lets throw out this year, and look at the career stats. Furcal has a higher batting average and a much higher slugging pct. Carroll has the edge with OBP, because he walks more. Both have been bad at the plate recently, but Furcal has the edge for several reasons. Higher upside at the plate, history of playing shortstop everyday, switch hitter, some power, younger, etc. Where does Carroll have the edge, getting on base? Let Beane sign him up and bat him ahead of David DeJesus. I'd have no problem acquiring Carroll as a utility guy, if the cost was low and he supplanted Counsell on the roster, but he is not an upgrade as a starter at short in my view.

[TooLiveBrew]

I'd have no problem acquiring Carroll as a utility guy, if the cost was low and he supplanted Counsell on the roster, but he is not an upgrade as a starter at short in my view.

 

I appreciate that you aren't sold on him as an everyday player, but to say that he isn't an upgrade over Betancourt is out there. Betancourt isn't an 'everyday' player either, in that he sucks.

[Funketown]

Over the past three years, they've both put up an OPS+ of 98. I agree that Furcal has a higher upside, but I also view him as a far riskier target. Carroll would be a pretty clear upgrade over Yuniesky, even if he isn't anything special. He's a solid MLB player, which Betancourt is not.

[RockCoCougars]

I'd have no problem acquiring Carroll as a utility guy, if the cost was low and he supplanted Counsell on the roster, but he is not an upgrade as a starter at short in my view.

 

I appreciate that you aren't sold on him as an everyday player, but to say that he isn't an upgrade over Betancourt is out there. Betancourt isn't an 'everyday' player either, in that he sucks.

Is Yuni a 'good' or even average player, no? Is he a better option every day at shortstop than Carroll? I'd say yes. Carroll would be a good utility guy, as he's basically a younger Counsell. In a way, I want the Brewers to get him, because it would be very hard to justify keeping Counsell around. Like I said, I see only two realistic options for an upgrade everyday player at short- Barmes and Furcal. I think Houston still owes a favor for the Brewers giving them Loretta for Ginter/Franklin.

[RockCoCougars]

Over the past three years, they've both put up an OPS+ of 98. I agree that Furcal has a higher upside, but I also view him as a far riskier target.

Furcal would absolutely be riskier, I agree- but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[TooLiveBrew]

Is Yuni a 'good' or even average player, no? Is he a better option every day at shortstop than Carroll? I'd say yes.

 

You would be wrong, then. He's a more effective hitter, & far better defender. Even if he can only start 4 or 5 times a week, that's a ton more valuable than Betancourt's negative value.

[FoxyFoxes]

Furcal needs to be the answer here then DFA Wilson/Betancourt. Is Furcal injured now though? Could he slip through waivers ?

[brewmann04]

watching wilson and bentacourt makes you think the brewers really need to get help soon.

[Yeti73]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Barmes makes a ton of sense. No injury concerns, no fielding concerns, no age concerns. Hits lefties really well and has some decent pop. He even has some playoff experience, which we don't have a ton of on this team (save the 4 games in 2008).

 

I think he is arby eligible next year, but I could be wrong. The 'Stros are an absolute mess. This makes tons of sense. I'd assume that the cost would be a 10-20 on the Power 50 player rater.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if this happened this week, it just seems like the safest good move.

[Oldcity]

Brendan Ryan is a guy I'd love to have. He'd be a huge upgrade.

[Funketown]

Brendan Ryan is a guy I'd love to have. He'd be a huge upgrade.

As I was watching the Mariners lose their 15th consecutive game today, I had the same thought. He won't hit much, but he gets on base at a decent rate and is a pretty slick fielder. He's also under control for next season for just $1.75MM. I can't imagine he'd cost more than a mediocre prospect with a moderate ceiling.

[brewmann04]

it time to Doug get active an get a SS now.

[nate82]

I would rather have Furcal as I see this being like a Ray Durham type of trade that Melvin did. Furcal is the best SS available on the trade market if he can stay healthy that is. The biggest risk is Furcal getting injured but I would rather take that risk than betting on someone like Ryan or Carroll. But then again I would rather see the Brewers trade for B.J. Upton and then go with someone like Valbuena who is blocked in Cleveland. I wonder what it would take to get Valbuena.

I wonder if the Brewers could do a three team deal that involved the Rays and the Indians. I know the Indians are looking to add an OF and the Rays are looking for bullpen help. Maybe a trade like this would work though I wouldn't be comfortable in doing this: Brewers get Upton and Valbuena, Rays get Braddock, and a PTBNL, Indians get Hart. I am not sure that is enough for Upton would need another piece I just can't think of the piece that is missing for the Rays. Hart is overpaying for Valbuena which may mean that another player would be coming over from the Indians that would go to the Rays.

[HiAndTight]

If we are talking small sample sizes, lets throw out this year, and look at the career stats. Furcal has a higher batting average and a much higher slugging pct. Carroll has the edge with OBP, because he walks more. Both have been bad at the plate recently, but Furcal has the edge for several reasons. Higher upside at the plate, history of playing shortstop everyday, switch hitter, some power, younger, etc. Where does Carroll have the edge, getting on base? Let Beane sign him up and bat him ahead of David DeJesus. I'd have no problem acquiring Carroll as a utility guy, if the cost was low and he supplanted Counsell on the roster, but he is not an upgrade as a starter at short in my view.

Actually, you're the one who's talking about small sample sizes. You continue to bring up that Carroll's struggled for a couple weeks now and that he walks a lot as your primary reasons for not wanting to get him.

 

Yet you completely disregard the fact that Furcal has been awful this year. You use career stats then to make your argument. It's like it has to be one extreme or the other. How about looking at the past 2-3 years? Carroll has unquestionably been a better and more reliable offensive player as of late.

 

And lets look at the edges you give Furcal.

Younger-Well, who cares? If he hasn't been as good as of late, and if he is constantly hurt, what difference does it make?

History of playing SS everyday? Well, he's not playing everyday when he's hurt.

Some Power? Furcal is slugging .218 this year.

 

Where does Carroll get the edge?

He's got a better average, draws walks, hasn't been hurt.

 

It's just a wildly inconsistent argument. You citing Carrolls recent struggles and saying he's not an upgrade and then definitively stating that Furcal is when he's putting up a .176/.240/.218 line this year just doesn't make sense.

 

 

Either way, the better question should be what does Betancourt do better than Carroll OTHER than hit for power? I'll take Carroll over him defensively, better stick, better OBP. That's pretty clear cut.

 

And he's been worth 1.5 wins this year playing a great deal at short, 2.5 last year playing 70 games at short.

Betancourt? -.3 this year and .8 last year. Your disdain for someone who goes up there trying to draw walks aside, I don't see a convincing argument based on an objective argument that he's not an upgrade over Betancourt.

[HiAndTight]

I would rather have Furcal as I see this being like a Ray Durham type of trade that Melvin did. Furcal is the best SS available on the trade market if he can stay healthy that is. The biggest risk is Furcal getting injured but I would rather take that risk than betting on someone like Ryan or Carroll. But then again I would rather see the Brewers trade for B.J. Upton and then go with someone like Valbuena who is blocked in Cleveland. I wonder what it would take to get Valbuena.

I wonder if the Brewers could do a three team deal that involved the Rays and the Indians. I know the Indians are looking to add an OF and the Rays are looking for bullpen help. Maybe a trade like this would work though I wouldn't be comfortable in doing this: Brewers get Upton and Valbuena, Rays get Braddock, and a PTBNL, Indians get Hart. I am not sure that is enough for Upton would need another piece I just can't think of the piece that is missing for the Rays. Hart is overpaying for Valbuena which may mean that another player would be coming over from the Indians that would go to the Rays.

In a perfect world, the Brewers trade for both Carroll and Furcal. And both are available.

 

Furcal does have the higher ceiling, and he should be little more than a salary dump. He should have negative value at this point, though the Dodgers may be holding out a bit longer to see if they can pry a decent C+ type prospect for him.

 

With his injury history, and his terrible season, Jamey Carroll offers a great deal of protection in the event that he continues to struggle, as well as obvious value as a utility player. And it may be easier to work out a deal from the Brewers end, as justifying giving up a B- type prospect is easier to do when you're getting back two players, despite the fact that neither have much trade value. And who knows, maybe we could get the Dodgers to throw in an OF'er for us...maybe that Kemp guy they've got in center....

 

I think Wilson and Counsell would then be the obvious two choices to go. Not that Betancourt shouldn't, I just doubt the Brewers would. Nor would they likely send McGehee down. Though again, it'd be advisable.

[Oldcity]

Ryan has the edge in defense, health, and age over both Carroll and Furcal.

[Bnowell4evr]

Ryan has the edge in defense, health, and age over both Carroll and Furcal.

Ryan also has the edge in who will be the hardest to acquire.

[endaround]

Not really. The Dodgers are such a mess its hard to even know who has the ability to approve player transactions.

[Warning Track Power]

Updating where we stand from the original post:

 

I think it is definitely becoming very clear as to where we are headed with this thing. The options I gave in that first post were:

 

Option A - Given it is an all in season, are you expecting DM to make a big splash ala Reyes or Hardy?

Option B - Are you expecting a high risk, high reward type deal which would bring in an injury prone Furcal?

Option C - Do you think DM will worry more about shoring up the D and bringing in a Ryan or Jack Wilson?

Option D - Or does DM go the change of scenery route and hope a Jason Bartlett revives his TB or Minnesota days?

 

It is clear that A and D are out the window. Reyes isn't going to be traded, Hardy re-signed and it appears Bartlett is not available, according to Padres GM Jed Hoyer. It appears Option B and Option C are still in play. Option D is still sort of in play if you plug the name Ian Desmond in for Jason Bartlett. So essentially, barring some unforeseen circumstance, we have the following players available to fill the SS role:

 

Option B: Rafael Furcal

Option C: Brendan Ryan, Jack Wilson, Jamey Carroll & Clint Barmes

Option D: Ian Desmond

 

Undoubtedly Option B and Option D will be the most expensive. Option B with Furcal may be a substantial risk given his injury history, but also given what the Dodgers may ask for given his potential when healthy. Option D will likely cost something most of us won't want to deal especially considering how Desmond has played in 2011 and the likelihood of Washington overvaluing him. I know we all have our different opinions on Option C and whether or not it represents a significant upgrade or not but I believe this is the option we will see if any at all as I'm beginning to worry that DM thinks YuBet can handle SS. Any of Option C shouldn't cost too much and the upgrade to D would be significant even if the O were to take a hit (save BB and OBP).

 

So updating where we stand less than a week to the deadline...what are you hoping for and what are you expecting? I have fluctuated through this whole thing, but I think I have finally settled on what I want from the next Brewers SS.

 

Hoping for: Brendan Ryan

Desmond will cost too much. I am thinking Furcal might too, which is why he hasn't been moved yet especially given DM's penchant for moving early in trade season. Carroll, while I like his stats, is 37 and I hesitate to have a 37 year old starting IF. I would love him as a backup, but not the starter. Jack Wilson doesn't excite me. Ryan wins over Barmes based on age. Looking at his highlight page on MLB.com and it seems like all his highlights are unreal defensive plays. We don't need anything but a .250 AVG with a +.300 OBP from our SS anyways given Braun, Weeks, Fielder and Hart. I want the D upgrade. I am craving some Brendan Ryan. Plus the dude just looks like he will be a fit for this team personality-wise. Stick him at #8 and let him play some slick D. I really REALLY hope we can get Ryan.

 

Expecting: Jamey Carroll

It is what it is but I have some serious reservations if he is acquired as the starter.

[jmeks23]

I'm personally fine with all of Barmes, Ryan, and Desmond. However I really haven't heard much on those guys regarding rumors, and particularly regarding the Brewers being interested.

 

The only one we keep seeing is how hard the Brewers are trying to get Carroll. That's fine if they get him, he's a perfect utility guy and can play 3-4 times a week at SS for you which is better than 6 days of Yuni a week. The best option with LA is getting either Carroll and Furcal or Carroll and Blake, because Carroll can fill the other position as a utlity guy and both 3B and SS are severely lacking on this team.

 

I just for some reason don't think Melvin will make all that big of a move regarding the infield. It sucks, because almost all of these guys don't have much in the way of value, which helps the Brewers but who knows. Maybe they're all asking outrageous prices.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Jason Bartlett has started to play a lot better lately. I think he is a great option.

[Warning Track Power]

I'm personally fine with all of Barmes, Ryan, and Desmond. However I really haven't heard much on those guys regarding rumors, and particularly regarding the Brewers being interested.

 

The only one we keep seeing is how hard the Brewers are trying to get Carroll. That's fine if they get him, he's a perfect utility guy and can play 3-4 times a week at SS for you which is better than 6 days of Yuni a week. The best option with LA is getting either Carroll and Furcal or Carroll and Blake, because Carroll can fill the other position as a utlity guy and both 3B and SS are severely lacking on this team.

 

I just for some reason don't think Melvin will make all that big of a move regarding the infield. It sucks, because almost all of these guys don't have much in the way of value, which helps the Brewers but who knows. Maybe they're all asking outrageous prices.

Blake is hurt (pinched nerve in his neck) and doesn't know when he will be back. No interest in acquiring him given his injury.

 

 

[Warning Track Power]

Jason Bartlett has started to play a lot better lately. I think he is a great option.

Jason Bartlett apparently isn't available.