SS Upgrade: Realistically What Do You Expect?

[RockCoCougars]

I don't get the Carroll thing either.... He seems like a slightly younger version of Counsell at this point. What can he do that Wilson cannot?

[The Truth]

What can he do that Wilson cannot?

Hit major league pitching.

 

Carroll's .277 career BA, .356 career OBP is much better than what Josh Wilson can produce. Wilson has a career .281 OBP in MLB. That is horrid

[JohnBriggs12]

The problem with that, John, is then you have Yuni B potentially starting playoff games, or very meaningful playoff race games in September. And you cannot afford to have his brutal defense and unprofessional at-bats (swinging at the 1st pitch, swinging at ball 4 and ball 5) in such situations. Despite the probability of Betancourt putting up better numbers in the 2nd half, he absolutely must be replaced

I don't see his defense as being brutal. That is an editorial comment on your part, not backed by any facts and an overstatement that is a result of the echo chamber from those that share your contempt for him. The stats (and my observation) is that he's a below average SS, but not to the extreme or to the point he's hurt a team that has mostly strikeout and flyball pitching staff. After all, this team has been in or near 1st place for a month now with him as the everyday SS.

 

Calling his AB's "unprofessional" is also over the top. Who are you to call any major league player "unprofessional"? Have you played professionally? Are you privy to his work habits or off field preparation? Would any manager play a player acting unprofessional? His weakness is his tendency to swing a lot early in counts. That's no secret but it's also not always bad or always the case. Last night he homered on the 7th pitch in his first AB, and homered on the first pitch his last AB. Every player has weaknesses. Is Adam Dunn unprofessional because he strikes out 200 times a year? I don't see him expanding the zone to the extreme any more than any other player, but he does swing at a lot of marginal pitches that he'd be better off taking. But he got to the big leagues doing that. So for me or you to say he should change completely is presumptuous. On the positive side, he rarely strikes out, no matter the opposing pitcher.

 

I agree that to this point, Betancourt's production in total hasn't been what is needed. But where you and I differ is that I don't call out the guy as being unprofessional or brutal. What purpose does that serve? I also look at his career, and recent play and believe he's capable of adequate production over the next 60 games. That's all that matters. Over the last 4 weeks, he's hitting .286, slugging .457, and has an OPS of .745. Now if they get that out of whoever has the job, they'll be okay. I don't personally care if it's Betancourt, or Howdy Doody. I don't hold personal grudges. The stuff being written about Betancourt has gone beyond critical analysis of his play and has gotten personal and I take exception to that.

[Bnowell4evr]

There's plenty of facts that back up how putrid Betancourt is defensively. Now if you don't believe or understand range statistics that's another issue.

[The Truth]

hey John, you are right: I will leave out the adjectives from now on, and simply say that Betancourt's .262 OBP is unacceptable for a team in the playoff hunt. Also, his career .292 OBP in over 3300 Plate Appearances makes me doubt that he can get his OBP over .300 and a .300 OBP would also be unacceptable

 

I would much prefer someone like Jamey Carroll who has consistently put up an OBP of .350 or better

[RockCoCougars]

What can he do that Wilson cannot?

Hit major league pitching.

 

Carroll's .277 career BA, .356 career OBP is much better than what Josh Wilson can produce. Wilson has a career .281 OBP in MLB. That is horrid

Right- but he's closer to 40 than 30. I would expect his numbers to be below his career norms. He has no power whatsoever either. Seems like giving up something of value for him as a utility guy (You guys don't seriously want Carroll starting at short, do you?) would be a waste as Wilson is younger, and to this point has outperformed his career stats by a lot.

 

If they are going to get an old guy from the Dodgers, it had better be Furcal. He's better in the field, and there's a decent chance he could recapture something at the plate.

[reillymcshane]

I don't get the Carroll thing either.... He seems like a slightly younger version of Counsell at this point. What can he do that Wilson cannot?

Carrol has some specific hitting skills - good average, good OBP, takes walks, doesn't strike out a ton. He has little to no power. He's very consistent - his OPS have ranged from .695-.720 over the past

four years. You pretty much know what you're getting with him at the

plate. He's average (at best) fielder at SS - probably a bit below average. He's versatile - can play OF corners, SS, 3B, 2B. At 37, he probably shouldn't play every day.

 

His ability to get on base consistently is his biggest strength as a hitter.

 

He would at this time - without question - be an upgrade over Yuni or McGehee.

 

He's a free agent after the season, but I think he'd be a perfect guy for 2012 as well.

[fondybrewfan]

It certianly wouldn't take a Top 25 or even top 35 prospect to get Carroll right?

 

If all it takes is a border line Power 50 guy to get him I think it would be a very solid pick up. We don't need another guy with power; we need that OBP in the bottom half of the lineup.

[RockCoCougars]

His ability to get on base consistently is his biggest strength as a hitter.

 

Isn't that what Counsell is supposedly here for? The major issue that I'd have with the Carroll acquisition is that it would almost certainly mean that Wilson would go. If you could guarantee me that Counsell would get DFA after the trade, I'd be on board.

[Warning Track Power]

What can he do that Wilson cannot?

Hit major league pitching.

 

Carroll's .277 career BA, .356 career OBP is much better than what Josh Wilson can produce. Wilson has a career .281 OBP in MLB. That is horrid

Right- but he's closer to 40 than 30. I would expect his numbers to be below his career norms. He has no power whatsoever either. Seems like giving up something of value for him as a utility guy (You guys don't seriously want Carroll starting at short, do you?) would be a waste as Wilson is younger, and to this point has outperformed his career stats by a lot.

 

If they are going to get an old guy from the Dodgers, it had better be Furcal. He's better in the field, and there's a decent chance he could recapture something at the plate.

 

RockCo you summed my feelings up perfectly. I love Carroll but not as anything more than a super utility IF. If we're dealing with the Dodgers, Furcal should be THE target. However, I would like to get Furcal AND Carroll with Carroll taking over Craig Counsell's super utility role on the team moving forward.

[RockCoCougars]

Hit major league pitching.

 

Carroll's .277 career BA, .356 career OBP is much better than what Josh Wilson can produce. Wilson has a career .281 OBP in MLB. That is horrid

Right- but he's closer to 40 than 30. I would expect his numbers to be below his career norms. He has no power whatsoever either. Seems like giving up something of value for him as a utility guy (You guys don't seriously want Carroll starting at short, do you?) would be a waste as Wilson is younger, and to this point has outperformed his career stats by a lot.

 

If they are going to get an old guy from the Dodgers, it had better be Furcal. He's better in the field, and there's a decent chance he could recapture something at the plate.

 

RockCo you summed my feelings up perfectly. I love Carroll but not as anything more than a super utility IF. If we're dealing with the Dodgers, Furcal should be THE target. However, I would like to get Furcal AND Carroll with Carroll taking over Craig Counsell's super utility role on the team moving forward.

I'll go all in with Blake and Furcal, but it's not my money... I would think that you could get both of them for little or nothing if you kicked in most of the cash ($8 million or so, I believe). Blake is hurt right now, and basically has the same skill set as Gamel, but he would add a needed power bat on the bench.

[reillymcshane]

His ability to get on base consistently is his biggest strength as a hitter.

 

Isn't that what Counsell is supposedly here for? The major issue that I'd have with the Carroll acquisition is that it would almost certainly mean that Wilson would go. If you could guarantee me that Counsell would get DFA after the trade, I'd be on board.

unfortunately, counsel isn't providing any of that.

 

if they Crew got Carrol, i'd be interested to see who they cut - Wilson, Betencourt or Counsel. Counsel is lefthanded - but he's hitting so badly, i don't even know if that would save him. at least he's still a good fielder. Yuni's lack of versatility in the field might make him the release candidate. But counsel has just hit so badly, it almost has to be him.

[The Truth]

Furcal has a bigger upside than Carroll but much more risk of being injured. A bigger roll of the dice. I prefer Carroll over Furcal for that reason alone

[reillymcshane]

has anyone seem furcal since he's come back from his injury?

 

If he's healthy, ideally, he's the guy the Brewers get. he brings much more to the table than carrol. however, he's been terrible when he's played. i'm curious as to what people might have seen in him of late.

 

how about getting carrol and furcal and casey blake. cut yuni and either counsel or wilson. send down mcgehee.

 

i can dream.

[RockCoCougars]

Furcal has been Counsell-esque at the plate- like one hit since his return. I think if you get Furcal and Blake, you have to keep Yuni just in case. I'd rather dump Counsell and option Dillard. Do you really need 7 right handed relievers? Seems like overkill to me.

[Warning Track Power]

Last I heard out here in L.A. is that Casey Blake doesn't know when he will be back. His pinched nerve in his neck is lingering. This may be too big of an injury risk to take. Maybe a waiver wire deal in August.

 

If Furcal and/or Carroll are the targets, my ideal would be:

 

1. Trade for both

2. DFA YuBet

 

The tough call comes down to Counsell/Wilson. Wilson has shown some value thus far, whereas Counsell hasn't shown much but is a fan favorite.

[The Truth]

has anyone seem furcal since he's come back from his injury?

Watching him today on MLB Extra Innings, Dodgers-Giants game. He looks OK. Still not running at 100% but he looks pretty good at the plate, at least in terms of his approach/swing

 

Jamey Carroll just got a hit a minute ago. How's that for a small sample update?

[The Truth]

Furcal is batting .167 this season in 108 AB's

[Hate those Rodents]

I'm not sure YuBet has zero trade value. I'd venture a guess that a Dodger trade would look like this: Yuni and minimal prospect for Carroll, with us paying Yuni and LAD paying JC.

[endaround]

Yuni doesn't have zero value, he has negative value.

[bando1234]

Just guessing here---Trevor Plouffe. Can play 3rd ,can play short, not much of a bat, has some power, better D than what we are running out there right now, great arm, could take over for Counsell, should not cost a lot.

[Warning Track Power]

Have to agree with end here. The Dodgers already have Yuniesky Betancourt on their roster. His name is Juan Uribe and he is gettin $21MM from 2011-2013. YUCK!

 

What would a Furcal or Carroll deal likely look like though? I don't believe the Dodger have any young 2B coming up, nor do they have a ready LF to place next to Kemp and Ethier. Jerry Sands looks like he could take over 1B for Loney and Juan Rivera isn't the answer. I wonder if they would take a 2B, OF and a mediocre pitching prospect for Furcal and Carroll?

[Warning Track Power]

Just guessing here---Trevor Plouffe. Can play 3rd ,can play short, not much of a bat, has some power, better D than what we are running out there right now, great arm, could take over for Counsell, should not cost a lot.

Counsell isn't going anywhere in 2011 unless he retires. Brewers won't force him out I don't think. In 2012, maybe. Dude can talk a walk though, 10 in 90 PAs in 2011.

 

 

[RockCoCougars]

Counsell isn't going anywhere in 2011 unless he retires. Brewers won't force him out I don't think. In 2012, maybe. Dude can talk a walk though, 10 in 90 PAs in 2011.

 

That should not be enough to keep him around. It's been nearly a month since he's drawn a walk. He shouldn't be kept around due to his veteran presence or his Wisconsin roots either (ask Augie how that worked for him in '82).

[Warning Track Power]

Counsell isn't going anywhere in 2011 unless he retires. Brewers won't force him out I don't think. In 2012, maybe. Dude can talk a walk though, 10 in 90 PAs in 2011.

 

That should not be enough to keep him around. It's been nearly a month since he's drawn a walk. He shouldn't be kept around due to his veteran presence or his Wisconsin roots either (ask Augie how that worked for him in '82).

100% agree. Just living in the reality of the situation and what I believe will happen and not what I think should happen.

 

In the WTP should happen world:

 

1. Trade for a SS and utility IF. Since we've been on Furcal and Carroll today, I'll go with them.

2. Trade for a change of scenery 3B like Ian Stewart. I love this guy. I know most would cringe at this suggestion but I think he will turn it around and probably could be had very cheap. Great buy low candidate for 3B.

3. DFA Betancourt and Counsell

 

Lineup: Furcal, Morgan, Braun, Fielder, Weeks, Hart, McGehee, Lucroy

Bench: Carroll, Stewart, Kottaras, Kotsay, Gomez