K-Rod (and cash) acquired; The cost? LH reliever Daniel Ray Herrera and low-A RHP Adrian Rosario

[MNBrew]

I find it both humorous & frustrating that Haudricourt mentioned at least a couple times in very clear terms that the players the Mets would be getting were not prospects: humorous, in that people chose to either ignore him or disbelieve him; and frustrating, for the exact same reasons. I read again & again countless posters so obsessed either with their own viewpoint (or even possibly blinded by biases against Melvin or Haudricourt???) or just a pressing fear that we'd lose Taylor Green, Fiers, McClendon, or some other players of real use to the Brewers & their organization that they ignored reporting by TH which was basically as much as he could say without actually saying that it wasn't going to be any minor leaguers of real value.

 

Anyway, kudos to Melvin all the more for this trade! How wonderful, both to pull off a deal this beneficial to the Brewers and to pull off a deal that makes the Mets look poorly run once again.

[danzig6767]

All I heard on thos board was we gave up these great prospects, hopefully the lunatic fringe will calm themselves, GEEZO

Except of course that no one actually said we gave up great prospects; a lot of us just expressed the hope that we hadn't. You know what they say about people who live in glass asylums? No, you probably don't.

 

What an amazing freaking trade. Of course the Mets did what they had to, but this is classic DM at his best -- seeing opportunity and taking advantage.

I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me that Melvin pulls off more trades than the majority of other GM's in the league.

 

I recall listening to a podcast somewhere with a former GM who's name i forget and Melvin was brought up. This guy said something to the effect that Doug is well respected and liked among the GM fraternity when it comes to making trades because i guess unlike many other GM's, Doug rarely tries playing games in prolonging talks between teams by making one or multiple really stupid/insulting type of offers which have a very little realistic chance of completing the trade. He said that generally if Melvin wants to trade for a player, he'll make initial offers which are close to his set limit and then if a team isn't interested, he'll move on unless they call him back.

[Roderick]

People should not be giving the Mets the OK on this deal because of "the situation they were in" with Krod. There were still many other teams that would have loved to have had KROD. I highly doubt our offer kept 31 other teams from wanting to add KROD and his impending type A status.

I disagree. Basically only a team with an established closer could trade for KRod. Any other team picking him up would have had to give him the closer's role and had him vest his big money for 2012.

 

KRod (his agents) knew that they couldn't win a grievance about not being a closer in Milwaukee so you might as well take the extra money the Brewers threw at him to get rid of the clause.

[gregmag]

I find it both humorous & frustrating that Haudricourt mentioned at least a couple times in very clear terms that the players the Mets would be getting were not prospects: humorous, in that people chose to either ignore him or disbelieve him; and frustrating, for the exact same reasons. I read again & again countless posters so obsessed either with their own viewpoint (or even possibly blinded by biases against Melvin or Haudricourt???) or just a pressing fear that we'd lose Taylor Green, Fiers, McClendon, or some other players of real use to the Brewers & their organization that they ignored reporting by TH which was basically as much as he could say without actually saying that it wasn't going to be any minor leaguers of real value.

I have two problems with your rather condescending and smug take on this discussion. First, people have different ideas about what a prospect is, and people also have different ideas about what other people (like Doug Melvin) think a prospect is. Second, I don't recall that TH ever said the list didn't include prospects, let alone "any minor leaguers of real value" -- that would be a really hard claim to qualify -- just that it didn't include top prospects. Big difference.

 

I think a lot of people here thought McClendon was in the trade, because (a) the Mets' GM was quoted as saying that one of the players was an upper-level guy who had enjoyed some MLB success and (b) almost no one considers McClendon one of the Brewers' top prospects. You're the first person I've heard suggest that the McClendon prediction was unreasonable, let alone so unreasonable as to be "humorous" and "frustrating."

 

I don't recall that a lot of people predicted that Mike Fiers would be in the trade. But again, anyone who made that prediction could have done so with full respect and regard for Haudricourt's report, because plenty of people here don't consider Mike Fiers a top prospect. I think the number of people who do consider him a top prospect has grown in the time since the Rodriguez trade, but it's still a controversial issue.

 

The concerns a lot of people expressed about the possibility of Green's being included in the trade come closest to substantiating your complaint, but I think they still fall plenty short. This is where uncertainties about perception become really important. At the beginning of the season, nobody ranked Taylor Green among the top prospects in baseball's (arguably) worst farm system. Every month he made more believers. Whether Doug Melvin or Tom Haudricourt was among those believers seemed very much in doubt for a long time, as Casey McGehee continued to beat the team's playoff hopes about the head and shoulders with a pole-axe while Taylor Green, lefthanded hitting Taylor Green, continued to bludgeon AAA pitching. Haudricourt got particularly testy about fans' temerity in asking why Green wasn't considered for an earlier call-up. When I thought about the trade list at the time, my rational mind told me that Doug Melvin had to know what Taylor Green was worth, but my anxiety was still high enough to make me say, "Gosh, I hope Melvin isn't foolish enough to include Taylor Green in this deal." I suspect that's about where a lot of people were, and I don't think that's remotely unreasonable. Maybe wrong in the final analysis, but not unreasonable.

 

I have a lot of respect and some criticism for Doug Melvin. I have nothing but seething contempt for Tom Haudricourt. But I took Haudricourt's report at face value; I just wasn't completely sure what face value was worth in the circumstances. It wasn't clear whether he had actually seen the list or was just reporting Doug Melvin's account of the list, and it wasn't (and still isn't, and never will be) entirely clear how Doug Melvin or Tom Haudricourt valued the players under discussion. If you had sufficient wisdom and insight to render that level of genuine uncertainty "humorous" and "frustrating," good for you.

[MNBrew]

I have two problems with your rather condescending and smug take on this discussion. . . .

. . . . If you had sufficient wisdom and insight to render that level of genuine uncertainty "humorous" and "frustrating," good for you.

Your presumption of my tone and my frame of mind are just that - presumptions - and on both counts you're incorrect. However, especially given your accusation, I find it interesting that the words you've chosen can easily be taken in the exact same way.

 

I don't have time to dig through close to two months' worth of JSOnline articles, blogs, & chats to find the quotes, but I can safely say I read statements by TH in at least two places that made it pretty clear that the two PTBNL going to the Mets would not be "players of consequence" (my paraphrase). For as thoroughly well-read & aware that so many posters are on this site, I found it odd (a combination of both "humorous" and "frustrating") to keep seeing posts about folks' fears that Green, McClendon, etc. were the types of players going to the Mets when it seemed pretty clear that the Mets were going to get minor league "roster fillers" -- which Rosario & Herrera pretty much are, and which Green, McClendon, etc. are not.

[Raw Biz]

I have two problems with your rather condescending and smug take on this discussion. . . .

. . . . If you had sufficient wisdom and insight to render that level of genuine uncertainty "humorous" and "frustrating," good for you.

Your presumption of my tone and my frame of mind are just that - presumptions - and on both counts you're incorrect. However, especially given your accusation, I find it interesting that the words you've chosen can easily be taken in the exact same way.

 

I don't have time to dig through close to two months' worth of JSOnline articles, blogs, & chats to find the quotes, but I can safely say I read statements by TH in at least two places that made it pretty clear that the two PTBNL going to the Mets would not be "players of consequence" (my paraphrase). For as thoroughly well-read & aware that so many posters are on this site, I found it odd (a combination of both "humorous" and "frustrating") to keep seeing posts about folks' fears that Green, McClendon, etc. were the types of players going to the Mets when it seemed pretty clear that the Mets were going to get minor league "roster fillers" -- which Rosario & Herrera pretty much are, and which Green, McClendon, etc. are not.

From my understanding, all Haudricourt ever said was they wouldn't be top prospects. Which is why most here didn't believe Green would be included. However, McClendon was a pretty good guess since the Mets GM said it was someone who has contributed and had some success at the major league level. I wouldn't lump Green and McClendon into the same group. Sure McClendon could be useful but he is basically just another arm. It's not that far-fetched to think he might've been included.

[jjfanec]

Yeah, McClendon seemed like a decent guess actually. The Green guess was debunked by Tom H numerous times, but some just refused to believe him.

[paul253]

The Green
guess was debunked by Tom H numerous times, but some just refused to
believe him.

The thing about Tom H. is that 1) When it comes to minor leaguers, I trust certain people on this board much, much more than I trust any of the JS beat writers. It seems like everything they write or bring up I already know because I read the message boards on this site. And when I read some chat transcripts, I just don't get the feeling that they care (or know) all that much about the minor leagues. And 2) The way I always took his statements was not so much that he was telling us it specifically wasn't Taylor Green. He said it wasn't Green but then he always added something to the extent of it not being a top prospect. Well as others have mentioned, just because you or I think Green is a top prospect doesn't mean Melvin or Ash does. So I guess I didn't know if he actually knew 100% that it wasn't Green or if he was just speculating because it wasn't a "top prospect" and he considered Green to be a top prospect. Also, considering how long it took to call Green up a lot of us kind of got that sense of something bad happening. But in general, I certainly don't take what JS writers say as gospel when it comes to the minor leagues.

[MNBrew]

The fact that Green's up & Gamel's not would seem to indicate that the front office has pretty high regard for Green. I wonder if they're souring on Gamel, or if they're just keeping him in AAA 'til their season ends today because he hasn't done so great in limited-PT opportunities in the bigs, and playing everyday 'til the end of the AAA season might be better for him in the long run.

 

As we've learned before, I think, it's probably better not to make final-ish decisions (a.k.a., rule out) any of our top-hitting prospects this early in regards to next season.

[endaround]

The fact McClendon never returned to Milwaukee is a very good signal he was on the list and the Mets just didn't take him. He would ahev been better than Dillard and would have actually pitched on occasion.

[Raw Biz]

The fact that Green's up & Gamel's not would seem to indicate that the front office has pretty high regard for Green. I wonder if they're souring on Gamel, or if they're just keeping him in AAA 'til their season ends today because he hasn't done so great in limited-PT opportunities in the bigs, and playing everyday 'til the end of the AAA season might be better for him in the long run.

 

As we've learned before, I think, it's probably better not to make final-ish decisions (a.k.a., rule out) any of our top-hitting prospects this early in regards to next season.

It's most likely because there's nowhere for him to play up here (besides the occasional PH). While I would've liked him to be eligible for the playoffs, giving him another week of consistent PT is better than having had him sit on the bench up here for a week. I still think he will out least be given the opportunity to win the 1B job next year, if it isn't already his to lose.

[monty57]

I wonder if they're souring on Gamel, or if they're just keeping him in AAA 'til their season ends today because he hasn't done so great in limited-PT opportunities in the bigs, and playing everyday 'til the end of the AAA season might be better for him in the long run.

 

Is there any chance that bringing Gamel up for September would cost the Brewers a year of service or get him to arbitration a year early? I know he's burned quite a bit of service time between his period sitting the bench under Macha, his time on the DL to start last season and the period he was up to DH this season.

 

Maybe one of the "rules gurus" on the site could see how much service time Gamel has and determine if another 30 days would push him over the limit.

[Raw Biz]

I wonder if they're souring on Gamel, or if they're just keeping him in AAA 'til their season ends today because he hasn't done so great in limited-PT opportunities in the bigs, and playing everyday 'til the end of the AAA season might be better for him in the long run.

 

Is there any chance that bringing Gamel up for September would cost the Brewers a year of service or get him to arbitration a year early? I know he's burned quite a bit of service time between his period sitting the bench under Macha, his time on the DL to start last season and the period he was up to DH this season.

 

Maybe one of the "rules gurus" on the site could see how much service time Gamel has and determine if another 30 days would push him over the limit.

I think someone said in the call-up thread that the service time is a non-issue. And since they have said they won't call him up, I'm rethinking my statement yesterday about him being in the future plans at 1st. Maybe he still his but you would think if that was the case, he would be called up since he's out of options next year.

[paul253]

What they've done with Gamel is an absolute shame. Next year he should at least be given a chance to claim first base. Forget free agency. You have three guys for two positions. Money needs to be spent elsewhere. Green, Gamel, and McGehee can handle first base and third base. The one who isn't starting (hopefully McGehee) should be a backup playing 2-3 times a week either at first or at third.

[fondybrewfan]

I don't get why everyone's is making such a big fit about Gamel not coming up. Fielder is going to start every game the rest of the year most likely and Gamel would probably have atleast 2 maybe 3 guys ahead of him on the left handed pinch hitter pecking order. Whats the point of bringing him up to get 5 at bats in 20 games? He wouldn't be a defensive replacement and wouldn't be a pinch runner either.

 

I am completely fine giving Gamel the rest of the year off while giving him the chance to win the 1B job in Spring Training next year.

[Raw Biz]

I don't get why everyone's is making such a big fit about Gamel not coming up. Fielder is going to start every game the rest of the year most likely and Gamel would probably have atleast 2 maybe 3 guys ahead of him on the left handed pinch hitter pecking order. Whats the point of bringing him up to get 5 at bats in 20 games? He wouldn't be a defensive replacement and wouldn't be a pinch runner either.

 

I am completely fine giving Gamel the rest of the year off while giving him the chance to win the 1B job in Spring Training next year.

Because Gamel should be the #1 or 2 PH off the bench. Yeah he didn't have success earlier this year but that was a small sample size. Plus, what harm would it really do, even if all he did was sit on the bench? I think he would be more upset about not even getting a call-up than getting called up and not playing much.

[jjfanec]

I don't get why everyone's is making such a big fit about Gamel not coming up. Fielder is going to start every game the rest of the year most likely and Gamel would probably have atleast 2 maybe 3 guys ahead of him on the left handed pinch hitter pecking order. Whats the point of bringing him up to get 5 at bats in 20 games? He wouldn't be a defensive replacement and wouldn't be a pinch runner either.

 

I am completely fine giving Gamel the rest of the year off while giving him the chance to win the 1B job in Spring Training next year.

I would have liked to have Gamel up because his bat is solid to pinch hit but I agree people are going over the top. Saying he should request a trade and that the Brewers have treated him terribly is over the top. He is a minor leaguer who is blocked by our best hitters. I think some of it has to do with him being a top prospect for a while so people have been a fan of his for a long time. I think he should be a bat off the bench but the team thinks differently.

[fondybrewfan]

Well I guess I am just not convinced that Gamel would be one of our better options off the bench. He obviously has more talent than everyone on the bench; but no one really has any way of knowing if he could succeed in a pinch hitting role or not. Gamel without a doubt would be a better everyday player than any guy on our bench; but pinch hitting is just a whole different ball game IMO. Besides I think you are probably setting Gamel up to fail again if you give him 10 or less AB's the rest of the year against good to great relievers late in games. His confidence was probably already shot after his poor showing earlier in the year; just let the guy go into the offseason riding high.

[Team Canada]

TH added a blog post about this today. Basically DM says that given Prince wanting to play every day and Green's presence, there wouldn't really be any opportunity for him to play anyway. And it's not like he's going to be on the postseason roster, so if there are other opportunities they'll give them to Kotsay et al to prepare for the playoffs.

 

You could certainly argue that Gamel should have been up much earlier, but it's not really going to matter much what 5 ABs he happens not to get in the last 3 weeks.

[logan82]

Team Canada wrote:

You could certainly argue that Gamel should have been up much earlier, but it's not really going to matter much what 5 ABs he happens not to get in the last 3 weeks.

I am more worried about the 5 PA Kotsay will get in the playoffs instead of Gamel.

[jwill535]

last time I checked, Kotsay was one of the better PH'ers in the league, so that argument falls flat.

[jjfanec]

last time I checked, Kotsay was one of the better PH'ers in the league, so that argument falls flat.

Do you have the numbers or have they been posted somewhere? I feel like he has been good but a lot people here trash him any chance they can get

[1992casey]

Why are we discussing Gamel and Kotsay in the K-Rod topic?

[mothershipconnection]

Kotsay as a sub this year : 47 PA .298 OBP .238 SLG.

 

.367/.438 in 246 career PA.

[HiAndTight]

At the beginning of the season, nobody ranked Taylor Green among the top prospects in baseball's (arguably) worst farm system.

 

Speak for yourself. As others on other sites would attest, I've long been on the Taylor Green bandwagon and his success should come as no surprise now that he's healed from his wrist injury.