Aramis Ramirez

[wallus]

Maybe they would take Yuni B and that would help with the cash situation?

[HiAndTight]

With the buyout, we are talking $10 million for a 70 game rental. Not worth the risk for a guy who is old and has been injured a good part of the past two seasons. What if you trade for him, and he hurts his shoulder again 10 games later?

No, we are talking roughly $22-23 million for 1.3 seasons. His option for next year is vested if he is traded, meaning any team acquiring him is locked into next year as well.

In that case, absolutely no way they should even think about this.

I think you absolutely have to think about this.

 

Trading for Ramirez would mean you could effectively put a glove at shortstop, even an Adam Everett type(when he was younger) and your team would be set. The five starters, the everyday players. Gamel/Weeks/Defensive SS/Ramirez/Braun/Morgan/Hart. Bench of Kottaras or Maldonado, Green, Wilson, Gomez and Gindl.

 

And you get that for roughly the same payroll you have this year, AND you're getting the TV deal kicking in next year(or the year after, but I believe it's next year).

 

With the BP pieces you have now, and the young pitchers you have coming up in that role, you'd be able to greatly improve your team without adding much salary, and while rebuilding your farm system.

 

 

Now at the end of the day is it worth it? Are there better alternatives? Not sure. But to summarily dismiss it seems short sighted to me.

[HiAndTight]

I think if you are looking to acquire a 3B you start with Mark Reynolds. I'd be asking Baltimore about both him and Hardy right now (yes, I know about the extension talk). If Baltimore won't move him, I'd go to Murphy and then to Wigginton. Both of these guys can play multiple positions and have some pop in their bats. They are also much cheaper than Ramirez with much less risk.

Mark Reynolds is absolutely terrible at 3rd base. If we're going to go that route, we might as well move Braun back and try and pick up and OF'er. Better production and cheaper.

 

Same with Wiggington...though not as bad defensively, he's worse than McGehee at 3rd.

 

And it's not like either is lighting it up with their sticks. Murphy's having a nice year, but he's more of a utility guy to me who's playing well, and is cheap. So I see no motivation on the Mets part to move him.

 

So there is a reason they offer so much less risk and are so much cheaper than Ramirez. They're not anywhere near as good. Ramirez could be a guy to put us over the top. Ramirez hitting 6th behind Hart, Lucroy 7th and then perhaps a Jamey Carroll hitting 8th IMO elevates us to the the level of the Phillies. Particularly because I'm of the belief that Greinke will come around.

[RockCoCougars]

I think if you are looking to acquire a 3B you start with Mark Reynolds. I'd be asking Baltimore about both him and Hardy right now (yes, I know about the extension talk). If Baltimore won't move him, I'd go to Murphy and then to Wigginton. Both of these guys can play multiple positions and have some pop in their bats. They are also much cheaper than Ramirez with much less risk.

Mark Reynolds is absolutely terrible at 3rd base. If we're going to go that route, we might as well move Braun back and try and pick up and OF'er. Better production and cheaper.

 

Same with Wiggington...though not as bad defensively, he's worse than McGehee at 3rd.

 

And it's not like either is lighting it up with their sticks. Murphy's having a nice year, but he's more of a utility guy to me who's playing well, and is cheap. So I see no motivation on the Mets part to move him.

 

So there is a reason they offer so much less risk and are so much cheaper than Ramirez. They're not anywhere near as good. Ramirez could be a guy to put us over the top. Ramirez hitting 6th behind Hart, Lucroy 7th and then perhaps a Jamey Carroll hitting 8th IMO elevates us to the the level of the Phillies. Particularly because I'm of the belief that Greinke will come around.

Ramirez isn't exactly the second coming of Brooks Robinson either. I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole, as I believe that he has 'overpaid albatross around neck' written all over him. I'd rather go with McGehee and address SS.

 

Simply put, McGehee+$20 some million>>>>>> Ramirez... not even mentioning that the Cubs would probably want something of decent value for him. If you are looking at him for 2012, just wait for the Cubs to buy him out, and you'll get him for a lot cheaper than the option.

[bcvilly24]

I would like to see green get some starts before looking into getting a 3b. SS is our need and I think Melvin finally realizes it. I have always hated ramirez but I could handle seeing him driving in runs for the brew crew.

[HiAndTight]

Ramirez isn't exactly the second coming of Brooks Robinson either. I

wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole, as I believe that he has

'overpaid albatross around neck' written all over him. I'd rather go

with McGehee and address SS.

 

No, but I don't know who said he had to be. He is MUCH better than Mark Reynolds however.

 

As for prefering to go with McGehee and addressing SS, I don't understand why it has to be one or the other. If you were to bring in Ramirez, it would greatly lessen the importance on finding an elite SS and you could focus instead on finding a guy with a very good glove and not much offense.

 

Though I can't bring myself to want to go with McGehee under any circumstance. He's terrible defensively and he's awful offensively. That's not preferable to any scenario in my opinion.

 

And, finally, with regard to Ramirez being an "overpaid albatross," I'm not sure if a player can be when his contract would expire after next year, and the value of his current production exceeds his contract at this point.

 

 

Simply put, McGehee+$20 some million>>>>>>

Ramirez... not even mentioning that the Cubs would probably want

something of decent value for him. If you are looking at him for 2012,

just wait for the Cubs to buy him out, and you'll get him for a lot

cheaper than the option.

Your argument doesn't make sense. If Ramirez is such an albatross and not even worthy of contemplating, why then do you think the Cubs would want a good prospect in addition?

 

What's more, why would the Cubs demand a good prospect in return if they plan on simply buying him out?

 

Either way, it'd cost more to sign him as a FA and be a MUCH bigger risk as he's likely going to get a 3-4 year deal than it would be to trade for him and wait for his contract to expire(and collect the compensation if we so decided).

At the end of the day though, just summing it up as "20 million plus McGehee or Ramirez," doesn't really say much. McGehee has negative value at this point now and you have to be able to get something better for that 20 million over the next two years, and do so without giving up a lot of prospects.

FA's are going to cost money over a longer period of time(or they're simply not going to be that good). More talented players with lower salaries are going to cost more in return.

 

And signing Ramirez after this season, even if you could get him for 1 year and 16 million is missing the whole point. That he would be of great help next year is simply a bonus, but teaming him up with Prince THIS year would be the more important issue. Solving the 3rd base issues in our "go for it," year is the whole point. Not that next year won't be a year in which we intend and are capable of competing, but we're particularly geared up for this year.

[Roscoe Chill]

"Adressing SS" is easier said than done as well. We're talking about utility types as the most likely to come in if they decide to fix the situation.

[HiAndTight]

"Adressing SS" is easier said than done as well. We're talking about utility types as the most likely to come in if they decide to fix the situation.

Well, as I said, it's very easily done if you were to pick up a big bat at 3rd base.

 

All you need in that scenario is a defensive SS. They're not the hard to find.

[endaround]

If they are so easy to find what don't the Brewers have any at any level?

[Bnowell4evr]

Anyone else get the feeling the Brewers are gonna try to get Ramirez after reading Ken Rosenthals article?

The quotes about wanting a difference maker and evaluating our payroll flexibility on a case to case basis really makes me think they are kicking the tires on Ramirez. I guess nothing would surprise me at this point.

[HiAndTight]

If they are so easy to find what don't the Brewers have any at any level?

I don't know, I'd ask Doug Melvin.

 

Just to be clear, you're arguing that it's difficult to find a no-hit, all glove Shortstop?

 

We've also had one for the last..what, 8-9 years?

[Roderick]

Either way, it'd cost more to sign him as a FA and be a MUCH bigger risk as he's likely going to get a 3-4 year deal than it would be to trade for him and wait for his contract to expire(and collect the compensation if we so decided).

I don't think he is going to get as much as you think in FA. Yeah the FA total will be bigger because of years, but really not close to the option. So if your main reason to acquire him is to replace Fielder, I would wait until the Cubs buy him out.

[RockCoCougars]

Who will pay a mid 30's Aramis Ramirez $16 million per? IF he stays healthy and continues to produce, he may get something like Rolen got a few years back (somewhere between $8-$12 million per for maybe 3 years).

[HiAndTight]

I don't think he is going to get as much as you think in FA. Yeah the FA total will be bigger because of years, but really not close to the option. So if your main reason to acquire him is to replace Fielder, I would wait until the Cubs buy him out.

No, my main reason would not be to replace Fielder. I think that would be a foolish decision. My thought process is that you would vastly upgrade 3rd base this year, thereby solving two issues(or more like one and a half).

You get one of the most productive 3rd basemen offensively as he's posting an .843 OPS, and, at least by the metrics this year, he's slightly above average defensively. As a whole though, he won't kill you with the glove.

But, again, with that type of bat you don't need to trade for even a JJ Hardy type. You just need a Jack Wilson type if you deem his glove worthy. Or peruse the min leagues and look for a veteran guy with a great glove and no bat.

 

But that is the main impetus. Because this team is SO close this year and because this team is historically bad at both 3rd and SS making it that much easier to find an appreciable upgrade. It's a LOT easier to upgrade over a -.8 WAR or whatever than a 1.5 WAR obviously. Aram's already been worth 2.4. I expect him to end up around 4.0.

 

 

 

So replacing Prince was just an added benefit to my way of thinking. This year is the priority obvious and I don't think the addition of Aram can be understated. He's expensive, but again, he replaces Princes salary next year, and the Brewers will have more money to spend the next couple of seasons with the new TV deal.

 

You run out a lineup of;

2B-Weeks

CF-Morgan

LF-Braun

1B-Prince

3B-Aram

RF-Hart

SS-Warm Body-

C-Jonathand Lucroy

 

Now for a team that just addressed it's bullpen by adding one of the best closers in the game. Addressed starting pitching by making two of the biggest trades in the off-season.......it just seems to me that the team that made those moves wouldn't stop there and would try to take that extra step and acquire that impact bat at a major position of weakness.

[HiAndTight]

Who will pay a mid 30's Aramis Ramirez $16 million per? IF he stays healthy and continues to produce, he may get something like Rolen got a few years back (somewhere between $8-$12 million per for maybe 3 years).

Who said he'd get 16 million per? I don't believe anyone said that.

 

But I'd feel better about getting him for the remainder of his contract this year and then 16 million for ONE year than sign him for 4/48 where you can pretty reasonably expect his production to greatly diminish.

 

So the question is, is that 16 million, lets say 4-5 million more than he'd get ANNUALLY worth it when you factor in this years potential impact and the prospect of a playoff run, plus the additional money it'll cost to sign him in the off-season(which again, you're missing out on most important portion of that time, this season).

 

So...I don't think anyone's going to sign Aramis to a 16 million dollar per year deal as a FA, and again, nobody's suggested they would.

[RockCoCougars]

You'll probably get him on a 3 year $25-30 million deal. I really don't think anyone's going to want to give a 33 year old who's missed big chunks of the past two seasons a four year deal. Most of the heavy hitters are set at 3rd (Bos, NYM, NYY, etc.)

[GAME05]

dunno, the more i think about it, the more i like it. and DM has shown himself to be someone willing to take on a big salary for a single year. plus then this one-year go-for-it experiment continues on into the second year with Ram's bat adequately replacing Fielders'. my biggest concern is being able to extend one or both of Greinke and Marcum, and maybe it would still be possible by getting a guy for just one more year.

[Hate those Rodents]

This isn't directed at you Game, more at everybody that worries about signing "one of Marcum/Greinke". I have seen countless posts referring to worry about signing "one of them". We will easily be able to sign one of them. I would guess Marcum would hardly break the bank to sign.

[RedFlash2]

The Cubs have NO immediate replacement at 3rd base if the Cubs could to trade ARam and get him to waive it. Vitters is at least two years away and the rest of the 3rd base prospects project to be eiither 2B (like LeMahieu or Flaherty) or utility players (like Marquez Smith). And looking over potential FA and that is a big pile of crap. And I don't like the thought of guys like Jeff Baker or Blake DeWitt at 3rd. So IF the Cubs were to talk to the Brewers about an ARam trade negotiations would start and end at Mat Gamel, imo. This will not be a straight salary dump. If you are willing to part with Gamel then I have no problems with parting with ARam.

 

Truth to be told if the Cubs want to contend in 2012 they can't afford to trade ARam, so I would prefer not to trade ARam, but if they are to trade him the Cubs HAVE to get a 3rd baseman in return and from the Brewers that's Gamel (and no we will not McGehee back).

[nate82]

Truth to be told if the Cubs want to contend in 2012 they can't afford to trade ARam, so I would prefer not to trade ARam, but if they are to trade him the Cubs HAVE to get a 3rd baseman in return and from the Brewers that's Gamel (and no we will not McGehee back).

If the Cubs want to contend in 2012 trading ARam away will not hurt them in contending in 2012. ARam is the least of the Cubs concerns pitching and an aging player at nearly every position besides 2B, SS, and Catcher is not good. Tyler Colvin is nice but other than him only Castro is another decent young player on the Cubs team. I don't see Barney being anything special either. There is also the concerns with the Cubs rotation as there really isn't that many good pitchers in it. Garza is nice but after him there are just a bunch of #3's and #5 and #6 type pitchers. The Cubs are not going to be contending in 2012 if they trade ARam away or if they keep ARam with the holes that the team currently has.

[Bnowell4evr]

The Cubs have NO immediate replacement at 3rd base if the Cubs could to trade ARam and get him to waive it. Vitters is at least two years away and the rest of the 3rd base prospects project to be eiither 2B (like LeMahieu or Flaherty) or utility players (like Marquez Smith). And looking over potential FA and that is a big pile of crap. And I don't like the thought of guys like Jeff Baker or Blake DeWitt at 3rd. So IF the Cubs were to talk to the Brewers about an ARam trade negotiations would start and end at Mat Gamel, imo. This will not be a straight salary dump. If you are willing to part with Gamel then I have no problems with parting with ARam.

 

Truth to be told if the Cubs want to contend in 2012 they can't afford to trade ARam, so I would prefer not to trade ARam, but if they are to trade him the Cubs HAVE to get a 3rd baseman in return and from the Brewers that's Gamel (and no we will not McGehee back).

How about Taylor Green + another piece or two instead of Gamel?

[endaround]

So we give up better talent? Ramirez has negative value because whoever gets him likely has to pick up his terrible option. So his overall value is like -$5m to -$7m. I don't see how the Cubs get anything for him.

[Bnowell4evr]

So we give up better talent? Ramirez has negative value because whoever gets him likely has to pick up his terrible option. So his overall value is like -$5m to -$7m. I don't see how the Cubs get anything for him.

You gotta make it worth it for the Cubs because they could just let him walk and collect the comp pick. His option just affects the amount of teams that could trade for him not what they would get in return. But if the Cubs have no intention of offering him arbitration at the end of the season than yes he has a VERY NEGATIVE value.

[endaround]

He has negative value to other teams. And the Cubs might not get anything for him depending on the option. All the Cubs can hope for is salary relief and a grade C at best prospect unless they fool someone. Ramirez is a $8-10m player about to get $16m.

[DocLuna7]

Looks like pure speculation but according to the article the Pirates(!) might be looking at reacquiring Aramis as well.

 

http://www.pittsburghlive...ts/pirates/s_747212.html