If you're DM, what do you do to make this team better?

[monty57]

They could use another reliable arm in the bullpen.

The team's bullpen has a 3.94 ERA, which isn't bad. The problem is some of its best relievers pitch the lowest leverage innings, while its worst reliever pitching in the highest leverage situations.

I'll agree here. In addition to Loe, Roenicke put Green into a lot of situations he should never have been. With better bullpen management, we should have at least 5-6 more wins this season, and that's probably being generously low, as it could well be in the double digits. I understand every reliever has bad outings, but Roenicke's "go to guys" have cost us an exceptional amount this season. Thankfully, Saito, Braddock and Hawkins are all back and Green was DFA'd before he could do more harm. Our bullpen should be a strength to this team. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any signs that Roenicke will take Loe out of the "8th inning guy" role, so we will see more & more good SP efforts go to waste in the 8th inning while better relievers are forced to sit and watch.

 

 

[endaround]

1) DFA or option Yuni. New defensive stats released today and Yuni is on pace to be 20 runs or so below average with his glove. Play Wilson and Counsell and look for an upgrade if possible

 

2) DFA Kotsay. Its really a no brainer. All of the other Roenicke toys have been put away (Reed, Almonte, Nieves), this one needs to be put on a shelf as well.

 

3) Platoon McGehee with Green.

 

4) Realize that 11 pitchers isn't a good idea and bring up McClendon

 

That's 4 upgrades without bringing in anyone.

[bucksman4]

Heres my problem with what Melvin is doing, and coming from a Cubs fan, I hope thos doesnt come off as "trolling". The Brewers are essentially a small market team trying to live like a big market team. By this, I mean that teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, and to a lesser extent the Cubs can trade top prospects for veterans, and if it doesnt work out, they can fill those spots via free agency. Teams like the Brewers, on the other hand rely much more heavily on those prospects, and if they do trade them for guys that dont work out, it could hurt them for several years to come unless they get very lucky in the next few drafts. If these trades they made, gets the Brewers into contention for the next year or 2, but Lawrie, Escobar, Jefress etc. become superstars while the Brewers are stuck in a 3-5 year rebuilding phase after Fielder, Greinke, and Marcum skip town, are those trades considered successes? I truely feel as though the Brewers are the best team overall in the NL Central for now, but I dont see them as good enough to beat the Phillies or Giants in a 3 game playoff series, and the farm system doesnt have any more spare parts to make them better, unless DM can pull another rabbit out of a hat like he did with Morgan.

 

 

And, no offense, the Cubs spend like a big market team but get the same results as a minimalist spending small market team. I'd rather be a small market team behaving like the big market teams. It's about how smart you are making moves and scouting talent (see Jim Hendry and Soriano, Zambrano, Fukodome, etc.) and whose team really is in the 3-5 year rebuilding phase as a result of a GMs moves...

[monty57]

Heartbreak, I see what you're saying, and see some truth to it. One thing I like about what the Brewers are doing is that they have been able to lock up some of their core talent. If they are able to lock up Marcum and / or Greinke, they should be able to remain competitive beyond next year. They also avoided a mistake by not extending McGehee, and after seeing what Werth signed for, Hart appears very tradeable if some of the minor league OFs make him expendable. As long as they continue to extend the core players while they're young, they can continue to maintain success.

 

I personally think their minor league system, while not nearly as strong as we're used to, is not the barren wasteland we were led to believe prior to the start of the season. The re-emergence of players like Green and Gamel give hope to the immediate future, and there is talent at the lower levels (and a lot of recent draft picks) which should help when our current group of extended players start coming to the end of their contracts.

 

This does play into the theme of this thread, as we should see Green soon. I would start him in a "soft platoon" with McGehee. In this case, Green could get weaned into the big leagues, while Casey would get eough PT to hopefully right the ship. If one of them performs while the other falters, that one can take the starting job. If both play well, great! If niether plays well (which I don't think is likely), we're not any worse off than we have been with Casey playing everyday. This would also showcase what, if anything, we need to do in the offseason at 3B.

 

I don't want to give up the farm for a SS this season. I would rather get a Jamey Carroll type upgrade and then make a move for one of the off-season free agents (Reyes, Furcal, Rollins), which would give us a very good, balanced offense next year as Gamel takes over the reigns at 1B. This is why I don't want to see Gamel up all year as a pinch-hitter. I expect big things from him, and would rather have him for five years as a starting 1B than waste a year of service time as a pinch hitter... we already lost one year by misusing him in the past.

 

Finally, dumping Kotsay for one of the AAA guys will probably be an upgrade offensively and defensively this season with the added benefit of showcasing the player for the future. I don't know what Boggs' future holds, but it would be great if we found out that he could be our backup OF for the next few years. Until he gets some more MLB ABs, we won't know. He's old enough that I'm not worried about hampering his development, but still young enough that we could have him as a cheap 4th/5th OF through his prime years.

 

As negative as some of my recent posts may seem, I am optimistic for the Brewers this year and beyond. We just need to make a few easy changes soon to increase our chances of winning the division. We can then hold much of the core of this winning team together for a few seasons, making the future look bright.

[Bnowell4evr]

* DFA Kotsay

* DFA Betancourt

* Bring up Taylor Green to use in a platoon with McGehee and occasionally Gamel.

* Bring up Mike McClendon until Brandon Kintzler is healthy.

* Trade for one of Reyes/Hardy/Furcal with the most likely being Rafael Furcal who will come cheap in prospects.

* removing one of the SS's after trading for a SS. If its Furcal keep Wilson (who's more durable than Counsell) but if its Hardy keep Counsell as a LH compliment to him.

* Use Kam Loe as a long reliever and send Estrada to AAA.

* Trade for another lefty like Tim Byrdak or go big and go after a K-Rod who the Mets will give away so they don't have to risk his contract vesting.

* Trade for a backup catcher like Ivan Rodriguez who be a major defensive upgrade. I'm getting sick and tired of watching all these wild pitches and passed balls.

[TheCrew07]

And, no offense, the Cubs spend like a big market team but get the same results as a minimalist spending small market team. I'd rather be a small market team behaving like the big market teams. It's about how smart you are making moves and scouting talent (see Jim Hendry and Soriano, Zambrano, Fukodome, etc.) and whose team really is in the 3-5 year rebuilding phase as a result of a GMs moves...

First, was it really necessary to take a shot at the Cubs? That was a pretty logical observation The Heartbreak Yid shared, and while it's not a popular view, that's been my biggest complaint towards from the start. He be much better off being the GM of a team with greater resources, and we'd have a greater chance at sustained success.

 

Second, I'd rather exploit the market whenever possible and be a trend setting organization, rather than an organization that just goes with flow and operates "the way things have always been done". I really don't care about market size, though the realities of being in the league's smallest market should not ever be overlooked, there just isn't much value in free agency period. Starting pitchers cost too much per win, relief pitchers are even more expensive per win, which should limit the Brewers to positional stop gap type players on shorter contracts. The Brewers simply need their farm system much more so than the large market teams, and while I understand fans aspiring to have that same level of success, we aren't going to get there operating the way those teams do.

 

Third, the Cubs farm system is much better than ours, their farm director helped turned things around in Tampa after drafting Carpenter and Halladay for Toronto, he's very good.

 

Fourth, a saying about living in a glass house and throwing stones comes to mind. Melvin hasn't exactly been a wonderboy in free agency either, quite the opposite. Where's the superior talent evaluation from a Brewer perspective? What's so hard about trading for Marcum, Sabathia, and Greinke? The GMs I consider to be good small market GMs don't make any of those moves and never have in their tenure stewarding their teams. I'm not sure why Zambrano is on that list, after burning out Wood and Prior he was the best starting pitcher the organization had left, and that time the Cubs farm system was atrocious.

 

Finally, where do you think the Brewers are if they don't make the playoffs this season with a maxed out payroll and a decimated farm system? What about 2009 and 2010? For all the talent on this team the results haven't been very good, in fact they've been far below my expectations. While the Brewers are currently enjoying a nice season, we're in no position to be lobbing insults at other organizations.

 

I've been advocating a wider view of the organization and Melvin for years now. Few are willing to accept or even acknowledge the costs that have come with Melvin's signature trades and will excuse away all of his bad moves as bad luck. I think knowledgeable fans from other organizations have an easier time being objective, they aren't invested in the Brewers the way we are emotionally. All the little fluff and feel good pieces written by the national and local media won't change that, some fans feed off that stuff, personally I'm more interested in established an uninterrupted flow of talent to MLB. I'm into organization building, and there's simply no way anyone can come to the conclusion the organization is stronger today than it was Melvin took over. There is no doubt the MLB team is vastly superior, but we're not in a position to sustain that success, because the organization as a whole is incredibly weak.

[homer]

First, was it really necessary to take a shot at the Cubs?

Wow. Did I just read that on a Brewer board?

[rluzinski]

First, was it really necessary to take a shot at the Cubs?

Wow. Did I just read that on a Brewer board?

If we can't even rally around Cubs hate, BF nation is SCREWED.

[nate82]

He also wasted resources acquiring pieces that weren't going to make the difference getting the team into the post season in Lopez and Linebrink. Had the Mets not collapsed in 2008 Sabathia wouldn't have even been enough, sometimes it seems like people forget that it looked for most of Sept like the Brewers were on the outside looking in. Again it's not trading players, it's moving assets for no tangible long term benefit that's the problem.

Wasted resources acquiring Linebrink and Lopez? None of the players Melvin gave up are nothing special for either of those players. With the Linebrink trade it is a trade that every GM makes almost every year. Offering Linebrink arbitration and getting the picks that actually turned out better than the players Melvin traded away. When Melvin traded Lopez he traded a no named never going to be anything but a AAAA player. That is not wasting resources as the Brewers have plenty of those guys and players like that are not in short order. The Linebrink trade had some long term benefits you may want to ignore those long term benefits but there was a long term benefit there.

A lot of the problems the Brewers have in the minor system can be attributed to Jack Z. You can not praise him for the success of the system and then blame Melvin for the failures of the system.

 

[Never Outhustled]

A lot of the problems the Brewers have in the minor system can be attributed to Jack Z. You can not praise him for the success of the system and then blame Melvin for the failures of the system.

The system would be extremely strong right now if it had all the prospects Melvin traded away this past offseason. Lawrie and Odorizzi are potential superstars.

[Never Outhustled]

The Linebrink trade had some long term benefits you may want to ignore those long term benefits but there was a long term benefit there.

Long term benefits? We cut Evan Frederickson and traded Cutter Dykstra for Morgan. Morgan is a great stop gap, but we paid roughly $2 million to sign those 2 picks, plus gave up 3 prospects to get Linebrink, one of the prospects (Joe Thatcher)was better than Linebrink. The part that made that deal bad was the Brewers scout who reported that Linebrink still had his best stuff. He didn't. Bad work by that scout. In all the deal was maybe neutral.

 

Sorry for taking this topic off topic. If someone wanted to delete all Melvin comments, especially my own, I wouldn't be offended.

[The Heartbreak Yid]

Heres my problem with what Melvin is doing, and coming from a Cubs fan, I hope thos doesnt come off as "trolling". The Brewers are essentially a small market team trying to live like a big market team. By this, I mean that teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, and to a lesser extent the Cubs can trade top prospects for veterans, and if it doesnt work out, they can fill those spots via free agency. Teams like the Brewers, on the other hand rely much more heavily on those prospects, and if they do trade them for guys that dont work out, it could hurt them for several years to come unless they get very lucky in the next few drafts. If these trades they made, gets the Brewers into contention for the next year or 2, but Lawrie, Escobar, Jefress etc. become superstars while the Brewers are stuck in a 3-5 year rebuilding phase after Fielder, Greinke, and Marcum skip town, are those trades considered successes? I truely feel as though the Brewers are the best team overall in the NL Central for now, but I dont see them as good enough to beat the Phillies or Giants in a 3 game playoff series, and the farm system doesnt have any more spare parts to make them better, unless DM can pull another rabbit out of a hat like he did with Morgan.

 

And, no offense, the Cubs spend like a big market team but get the same results as a minimalist spending small market team. I'd rather be a small market team behaving like the big market teams. It's about how smart you are making moves and scouting talent (see Jim Hendry and Soriano, Zambrano, Fukodome, etc.) and whose team really is in the 3-5 year rebuilding phase as a result of a GMs moves...

And you wont find (m)any Cubs fans defending Hendry. However, after this year, the money will be there to pursue some big free agents. Whether the new owner choses to do so is another story. Hendrys one plus is that he isnt into trading his top prospects away, however, not that weve really had any cant missers since Mark Prior, of course Ricky Nolasco is the exception to that rule.

 

While CC Sabathia did give you a great run in 2008, in 2011, would you rather have those memories or Michael Brantly and Matt LaPorta? Looking at what the Brewers have produced in recent years, Braun, Fielder, Weeks, Gallardo, Hardy, Hart, they should have been in the thick of it all along, but for some reason, they have trouble building around these guys. It seems to me, that only the Rays and Red Sox have produced this many elite players out of their farm system in recent years, and they contend every year.

 

I just hope it doesnt come to the point where were all looking up at the Reds and Pirates in a few years, because Cubs/Brewers was looking to be a hell of a rivalry for a few short years.

 

[nate82]

A lot of the problems the Brewers have in the minor system can be attributed to Jack Z. You can not praise him for the success of the system and then blame Melvin for the failures of the system.

The system would be extremely strong right now if it had all the prospects Melvin traded away this past offseason. Lawrie and Odorizzi are potential superstars.

There is a time to trade prospects and a time to keep those prospects. With Weeks being signed long term I don't see Lawrie having a position with the Brewers. The teams that Prince could have been traded to didn't really want Prince as they already had players at that position. If Prince were to be traded it would have been two seasons ago that is when his value would have been the highest and the fans would have killed Melvin for doing that. Trading away Odorizzi and Lawrie was a good move by Melvin it brought in two very good pitchers in Marcum and Greinke.

[The Truth]

With Weeks being signed long term I don't see Lawrie having a position with the Brewers.

Brett Lawrie is batting .354 with a 1.092 OPS and 15 HR's in 223 AB's with Las Vegas in AAA ball, and he has started every game at 3B.

[The Truth]

I really don't know that the Brewers would be wise to trade very many more prospects at this time. I certainly wouldn't want them to trade Gamel. And I don't think the Brewers really even have that many prospects that they could trade anyways.

 

Just hypothetically if they went completely all in and traded for Reyes and Heath Bell, would that make them favorites to win the World Series? Maybe, maybe not, really depends on many factors. Greinke, Marcum & Gallardo could potentially stand up to the Phillies pitching but so far this season they haven't.

 

As others have said, the best moves would be to DFA Kotsay & Betancourt and find a replacement or platoon partner for McGehee (I would prefer Gamel over Green).

[nate82]

With Weeks being signed long term I don't see Lawrie having a position with the Brewers.

Brett Lawrie is batting .354 with a 1.092 OPS and 15 HR's in 223 AB's with Las Vegas in AAA ball, and he has started every game at 3B.

The Brewers didn't see him as a 3B since they had tried him out at OF and 2B mostly. Also with Gamel and Green at 3B in AAA where would Lawrie play? The answer is in the OF or 2B. I am not sure Lawrie would be good in the OF but that is where the Brewers would have played him in AAA.

[The Truth]

The Brewers didn't see him as a 3B since they had tried him out at OF and 2B mostly. Also with Gamel and Green at 3B in AAA where would Lawrie play? The answer is in the OF or 2B. I am not sure Lawrie would be good in the OF but that is where the Brewers would have played him in AAA.

Gamel has played every game at 1B in AAA this year. Lawrie is a much much better prospect then Green. If your point is that Doug Melvin et al completely screwed up their assessment of a position for Lawrie, I agree.

 

I like Marcum, alot. He's the kind of player that is easy to root for. As Ned Yost used to say, "he's a fighter, a hard worker..." (what was the rest? Can't believe I forgot my favorite Ned Yost quote!). Without Marcum I don't think the Brewers would have a chance to make the playoffs this year. All that said, they did give up one helluva lot for 2 years of Marcum

[xisxisxis]

The Brewers didn't see him as a 3B since they had tried him out at OF and 2B mostly.

Is that a point in the Brewers favor or against. The Jays seem to think he will succeed at 3B, the Brewers have been in search of a Long-Term solution at 3B for a long time. So were the Brewers just clueless? It wasn't because Green or Gamel were penciled in as the LT 3B. Green was off the radar and even his excellent 2011 season isn't making much of an impression on the brewers brain-fart that they are wavering from Casey "Hacking Mass" McGahee. To argue he was blocked by Weeks and then sent to another team who immediately move him to an area where the Brewers are week really indicates poor judgement by the Brewers or really gross incompetence. I think it's completely reasonable to say the Brewers thought they needed Marcum more than they needed Lawrie. All the peripheral arguments about attitude, blocked position, etc. are just knee jerk defense of the brewers crappy management.

[logan82]

There was no reason to move Lawrie off of 2B until Weeks signed.

[Never Outhustled]

The Brewers didn't see him as a 3B since they had tried him out at OF and 2B mostly.

Is that a point in the Brewers favor or against. The Jays seem to think he will succeed at 3B, the Brewers have been in search of a Long-Term solution at 3B for a long time. So were the Brewers just clueless? It wasn't because Green or Gamel were penciled in as the LT 3B. Green was off the radar and even his excellent 2011 season isn't making much of an impression on the brewers brain-fart that they are wavering from Casey "Hacking Mass" McGahee. To argue he was blocked by Weeks and then sent to another team who immediately move him to an area where the Brewers are week really indicates poor judgement by the Brewers or really gross incompetence. I think it's completely reasonable to say the Brewers thought they needed Marcum more than they needed Lawrie. All the peripheral arguments about attitude, blocked position, etc. are just knee jerk defense of the brewers crappy management.

 

Doug Melvin, unlike most of the members of Brewerfan, was convinced McGehee was really good. In his confused mind, we had a great 3B.

 

Like Logan said, there was no reason to move Lawrie off 2B. A great hitter at 2B is more valuable than a great hitter at 3B. Lawrie will fit well at 2B, 3B, LF and RF. It wouldn't surprise me if he moved around during his career to best fit his teams needs, much like Paul Molitor or Pete Rose.

 

 

As for the trade itself, Melvin knows his leesh is getting short, and he needs to win now. He's getting 2 years of a really good pitcher, so as much as I like Lawrie and hated the deal, at least he filled the need he wanted to fill with a really good pitcher.

[Hammer]

Right now, if I were Doug Melvin, I would get my resume ready for a gig on a Canadian national sports network. He needs to get canned in favor of a GM that can understand OBP, OPS and defense. He has assembled a joke of a team when you look at what happens w/ 1 injury. This team is just freaking low right now w/out Braun. They look like they think they have to play a perfect game...and when one little thing goes wrong they crawl in to +%%$$$ and hide.

[monty57]

With Weeks being signed long term I don't see Lawrie having a position with the Brewers.

Brett Lawrie is batting .354 with a 1.092 OPS and 15 HR's in 223 AB's with Las Vegas in AAA ball, and he has started every game at 3B.

Green's batting .305 with a .891 OPS and 11 HR in 246 ABs with Nashville, starting at 3B & 2B, and we're still watching Casey's .585 OPS in Milwaukee.

 

But really, Wilson's starting in LF tonight and no one in the Brewers' brass thinks we might want to take a look at bringing someone else up? Betancourt is our #5 hitter, but we're fine with our current roster? Wolf is argueably the best hitter in the lineup after Prince, Weeks and Hart and no changes are made? This is getting a bit tiresome.

 

[LouisEly]

A lot of the problems the Brewers have in the minor system can be attributed to Jack Z. You can not praise him for the success of the system and then blame Melvin for the failures of the system.

The system would be extremely strong right now if it had all the prospects Melvin traded away this past offseason. Lawrie and Odorizzi are potential superstars.

And the pitching on the major league team would be extremely weak. I'm glad you're happy with minor league success, because I'll take major league success. Maybe they'll amount to something some day, but so far they haven't. The only player traded away for Linebrink who has even played in the majors is Thatcher, and he's just a LOOGY. The comp picks they got for Linebrink turned into Nyjer Morgan. So they got a Linebrink rental (do you remember how poor the relief pitching was that year - that was what almost cost them the playoffs) and Nyjer Morgan for Joe Thatcher. How that is not a good trade is beyond me. Yes, Grienke hasn't worked out so far, but Odorizzi, Cain, and Jeffress haven't done anything for the Royals yet, and I'd be scared to think of where they would be without Marcum.

 

but trading Hardy for Gomez stunk, plenty of people thought that was a horrible trade

Hardy's last season in Milwaukee his OPS was almost exactly the same as Gomez's OPS this season (.656 vs .659) and you want to run Gomez out of town. Sorry X, but Hardy was awful. He's been dumped by two organizations now and that says something. Sometimes a guy needs to get dumped twice before he gets his head out of his rear end and realize he's not a prima donna and has to make changes and get better. Hardy and Nelson Cruz are two prime examples - after they got dumped twice they finally pulled their heads out of their rear ends and listened to coaching. Melvin ain't perfect, but don't go pinning Hardy on Melvin because Hardy forced Melvin's hand with his poor play. (And like Hardy's M.O., he's only played in 55 of Baltimore's 82 games.)

 

Back to the question at hand, I'd have Melvin sit down and have a talk with Roenicke and explain to him that:

 

1) It's good to be somewhat loyal to your players, however...

 

B) the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, and

 

3) when people produce poorly you can make changes and still be loyal to them because when you use facts to make decisions people understand your decisions.

[Baldkin]

And the pitching on the major league team would be extremely weak. I'm glad you're happy with minor league success, because I'll take major league success. Maybe they'll amount to something some day, but so far they haven't. The only player traded away for Linebrink who has even played in the majors is Thatcher, and he's just a LOOGY. The comp picks they got for Linebrink turned into Nyjer Morgan. So they got a Linebrink rental (do you remember how poor the relief pitching was that year - that was what almost cost them the playoffs)

It actually did cost them the playoffs, as that was 2007 and they finished 2 games out of winning the division.

[NYChez]

If Melvin fired Yost in mid September of a playoff run, there's no reason to think he won't make a drastic move if things keep spiraling downward this homestand.