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National League MVP 2011: Braun = MVP! (reply #318)

jjfanec

By jjfanec,
in Milwaukee Brewers Talk

JohnBriggs12 Biloxi Shuckers

JohnBriggs12

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Prince is tied for first in HR, 2nd in RBI, 2nd in OBP, 2nd in Walks.

 

In my opinion his value goes beyond Braun because he a. doesn't get as many pitches to hit, b. if he doesn't drive in 120 runs, which is 9 more than Braun, the Brewers are dead because the guys behind him didn't do much, d. teams bring in pitchers specifically to face him from the 7th inning on (they don't do this for Braun) and c. he's played in every game and Braun's missed a dozen.

 

The Brewers played solid ball with Kotsay in there for Braun too.

 

Braun certainly has a case too, as does Kemp but Fielder gets my vote.

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mkm13 College Ball

mkm13

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Prince is tied for first in HR, 2nd in RBI, 2nd in OBP, 2nd in Walks.

 

In my opinion his value goes beyond Braun because he a. doesn't get as many pitches to hit, b. if he doesn't drive in 120 runs, which is 9 more than Braun, the Brewers are dead because the guys behind him didn't do much, d. teams bring in pitchers specifically to face him from the 7th inning on (they don't do this for Braun) and c. he's played in every game and Braun's missed a dozen.

 

The Brewers played solid ball with Kotsay in there for Braun too.

 

Braun certainly has a case too, as does Kemp but Fielder gets my vote.

The argument can be worked the other way as well. You could argue Braun would have more walks if teams were not worried about Prince behind him...which would increase his OBP. Also, Fielder has had the benefit of having a guy with a .400 OBP hitting in front of him. He has had more RBI opportunities than Braun has had. Also as you pointed out, Braun has played a dozen less games than Fielder. If Braun played an equal amount of games...IMO the RBI totals would be pretty even.

 

We are also not even taking into account on the bases paths here. Fielder needs to be pushed around the bases. While Braun is not an excellent base runner, he does have 30+ steals and has stolen bases at a very high %. He is also much more likely to score from 2nd on a simple base hit to the outfield.

 

 

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cwolf2012

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"We are also not even taking into account on the bases paths here. Fielder needs to be pushed around the bases. While Braun is not an excellent base runner, he does have 30+ steals and has stolen bases at a very high %. He is also much more likely to score from 2nd on a simple base hit to the outfield."

 

I would argue that Braun has been an excellent baserunner this season.

 

Braun has been better than Fielder, even when you talk about counting stats. The only thing that I think Fielder has a true edge on is WPA. But a lot of those high-leverage PAs came because Braun was getting on base to score for Fielder or moving the other guys into scoring position with hits.

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JohnBriggs12 Biloxi Shuckers

JohnBriggs12

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Prince is tied for first in HR, 2nd in RBI, 2nd in OBP, 2nd in Walks.

 

In my opinion his value goes beyond Braun because he a. doesn't get as many pitches to hit, b. if he doesn't drive in 120 runs, which is 9 more than Braun, the Brewers are dead because the guys behind him didn't do much, d. teams bring in pitchers specifically to face him from the 7th inning on (they don't do this for Braun) and c. he's played in every game and Braun's missed a dozen.

 

The Brewers played solid ball with Kotsay in there for Braun too.

 

Braun certainly has a case too, as does Kemp but Fielder gets my vote.

The argument can be worked the other way as well. You could argue Braun would have more walks if teams were not worried about Prince behind him...which would increase his OBP. Also, Fielder has had the benefit of having a guy with a .400 OBP hitting in front of him. He has had more RBI opportunities than Braun has had. Also as you pointed out, Braun has played a dozen less games than Fielder. If Braun played an equal amount of games...IMO the RBI totals would be pretty even.

 

We are also not even taking into account on the bases paths here. Fielder needs to be pushed around the bases. While Braun is not an excellent base runner, he does have 30+ steals and has stolen bases at a very high %. He is also much more likely to score from 2nd on a simple base hit to the outfield.

 

Braun's value in 12 games was absolute zero. Theoretically, Fielder had value in every game. I'm sorry, that's not Braun's fault but that's a factor. Braun may have been very slightly better in the 149 he's played in, but you can't extrapolate that as if he played in all 161 to date. In theory Fielder had more RBI opportunities but he was intentionally walked 32 times with men not just on base but in scoring position and had zero chance to drive in runs (even himself) in those situation, so having a .400 OBP guy helped but not all that much.

 

With Weeks, Hart, and Morgan for the most part batting in front of him, Braun had plenty of opportunities as well, often after Morgan bunted guys into scoring position.

 

Look Braun's had an MVP caliber year but so has Prince. My choice would be Prince. An argument can be made either way. Bur for me the fact Prince drove in 120 runs with virtually no threat behind him, and his taking walks at such a high rate contributed to the respectable 135 RBI total that much maligned McGehee and Betancourt combined for makes him the more valuable on this team, this season.

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mkm13 College Ball

mkm13

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Braun's value in 12 games was absolute zero. Theoretically, Fielder had value in every game. I'm sorry, that's not Braun's fault but that's a factor. Braun may have been very slightly better in the 149 he's played in, but you can't extrapolate that as if he played in all 161 to date. In theory Fielder had more RBI opportunities but he was intentionally walked 32 times with men not just on base but in scoring position and had zero chance to drive in runs (even himself) in those situation, so having a .400 OBP guy helped but not all that much.

 

With Weeks, Hart, and Morgan for the most part batting in front of him, Braun had plenty of opportunities as well, often after Morgan bunted guys into scoring position.

 

Look Braun's had an MVP caliber year but so has Prince. My choice would be Prince. An argument can be made either way. Bur for me the fact Prince drove in 120 runs with virtually no threat behind him, and his taking walks at such a high rate contributed to the respectable 135 RBI total that much maligned McGehee and Betancourt combined for makes him the more valuable on this team, this season.

I am not extrapolating the statistics, but you missed my point. My point is hitting 111 RBI's in 149 games (what Braun did) is more valuable than hitting 111 RBI's in 161 games (the amount of games Fielder has played). So to simply say Fielder has hit 9 more RBI than Braun isn ot telling the entire story. You are correct though, the games Braun did not play in he didn't have any value.

 

Braun did have opportunities as well for RBI's have never said otherwise. That said, he did not have as many as Fielder. Also, you again are not including base running, where there is a significant difference. I am not saying Prince didn't have a great year, he did. But IMO Braun has the edge this year. Obviously the walks he took contributed to the RBI totals of McGehee and Betancourt, but Braun's .400 OBP this year also significantly helped those totals as well. I would say even more than Prince considering how much better Braun is on the bases.

 

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homer MVP

homer

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Braun's value in 12 games was absolute zero. Theoretically, Fielder had value in every game. I'm sorry, that's not Braun's fault but that's a factor. Braun may have been very slightly better in the 149 he's played in, but you can't extrapolate that as if he played in all 161 to date. In theory Fielder had more RBI opportunities but he was intentionally walked 32 times with men not just on base but in scoring position and had zero chance to drive in runs (even himself) in those situation, so having a .400 OBP guy helped but not all that much.

 

With Weeks, Hart, and Morgan for the most part batting in front of him, Braun had plenty of opportunities as well, often after Morgan bunted guys into scoring position.

 

Look Braun's had an MVP caliber year but so has Prince. My choice would be Prince. An argument can be made either way. Bur for me the fact Prince drove in 120 runs with virtually no threat behind him, and his taking walks at such a high rate contributed to the respectable 135 RBI total that much maligned McGehee and Betancourt combined for makes him the more valuable on this team, this season.

Given how similar their offensive stat lines are (and for arguments sake, let's say they are identical) I would use defense as the tiebreaker. In that case, Braun wins hands down. He's not all that great a left fielder but Prince is much worse as a first baseman.

"Dustin Pedroia doesn't have the strength or bat speed to hit major-league pitching consistently, and he has no power......He probably has a future as a backup infielder if he can stop rolling over to third base and shortstop." Keith Law, 2006
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dadofandrew

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Braun won the MVP when the Brewers clinched a playoff spot. With his numbers (high BA, HR's, RBI's), speed, ability to make a spectacular defensive play, and friendliness to the media, all he needed was to be on a "winner."

 

Don't overthink it, guys like Tom H and Tony W decide who wins, and they don't overthink anything. It won't even be close. Braun will get the most first place votes and won't be below 3rd on a single ballot.

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MillerPark

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I just don't think that they're gonna give the Dodgers two of the top awards (MVP & CY) with them being a non-playoff team, unless Kemp was the run away choice (which he is not). Also, since the Brewers will be denied the Manager Of The Year award (going to Kirk Gibson), I truly think we will be rewarded the MVP in Braun! It's just that I don't think they'll give all above the above mentioned awards to NL West teams. Braun getting the MVP will balance things out a bit! That's just my theory.
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jjkoestler

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ahh. Reyes just singled in his first at bat and they pulled him. He is going to end the year with a .337 average. Braun is going to need a big night to catch him.
That is so incredibly bush league.
"Fiers, Bill Hall and a lucky SSH winner will make up tomorrow's rotation." AZBrewCrew
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