Casey McGehee's struggles: how much leash does he get?

[endaround]

Unless McGehee goes on a Corey Hart type hot streak for the rest of the year, I think it's safe to assume he won't be handed the starting 3rd base job is 2012. It's quite possible they'll release him rather than run the risk of losing an arbitration ruling that will be heavily weighted toward his first two seasons.

Or they could option him down and he wouldn't get an arby hearing.

[danzig6767]

Well, he's not immune from my criticism. Now that Wilson is on the roster, Counsell is redundant. Not that Wilson will tear the cover off the ball, but I'll take him over Counsell.

 

But the reason McGehee and Yuni get so much criticism is that they're starters. Personally, I don't have nearly the problem with Yuni compared to most here. I've watched almost every game and Yuni doesn't look like a terrible defender. Sorry. I get that he plays a lazy SS, but he isn't booting balls left and right every game. And he's not a great hitter, but that's ok for the 8 spot. (Which is where he should be.) Compare his to the numbers to the worst starter for any other team, and I'll bet his numbers don't look bad at all.

Because Yuni has such abysmal range is why

 

In just the recent Twins series for example, twice he failed to get to balls hit that i'd guess about 90% of major league shortstops turn into outs. In both cases, it came with two outs that should have ended the inning, but the Twins ended up scoring a total of five runs after the innings stayed alive because Yuni moves like he has on 10 pound ankle weights. This happens a lot and his bad defensive stats back up my eyes. In the first inning of the second Arizona game, K.Johnson hits a ball barely to the right of Yuni, he whiffed yet again and the guy came around to score and kept the inning alive longer in which four runs scored.

 

None of those three plays were scored as errors, but Betancourt's utter lack of range badly hurt the team by costing them runs.

[RockCoCougars]

Id take Hardy over what we have now (obviously), but he had SS locked down for the 'crew and screwed it up himself. I blame him (his performance, et al...not personel) for bring YB to Milwaukee.

I'm not sure about that. In 2008-2009, there was talk of moving Hardy of SS to 3B to make room for the 'next Ozzie Smith' down in Huntsville.

[davego]

Would some sort of CC/YB/Wilson combo be any better? It would seem to me that if it was, it would be just due to random luck?

[MJLiverock]

Id take Hardy over what we have now (obviously), but he had SS locked down for the 'crew and screwed it up himself. I blame him (his performance, et al...not personel) for bring YB to Milwaukee.

I'm not sure about that. In 2008-2009, there was talk of moving Hardy of SS to 3B to make room for the 'next Ozzie Smith' down in Huntsville.

Well if you belive in UZR or UZR/150 it would seem smart so far this year with Hardy having negative value defensively and Escobar being one of the best in the league.

 

[Funketown]

Well if you belive in UZR or UZR/150 it would seem smart so far this year with Hardy having negative value defensively and Escobar being one of the best in the league.

For the last three years, both are about +12 UZR total. Both are good defensive shortstops; Hardy being on the decline and Escobar being on the rise. Right now, I'd definitely take Escobar from a defensive standpoint.

 

Back on topic, does anybody know the number of days McGehee would need to stay down in the minors for him to not get an arby hearing? It would be interesting to see how that plays out should the circumstance arrive.

[monty57]

In just the recent Twins series for example, twice he failed to get to balls hit that i'd guess about 90% of major league shortstops turn into outs. In both cases, it came with two outs that should have ended the inning, but the Twins ended up scoring a total of five runs after the innings stayed alive because Yuni moves like he has on 10 pound ankle weights. This happens a lot and his bad defensive stats back up my eyes. In the first inning of the second Arizona game, K.Johnson hits a ball barely to the right of Yuni, he whiffed yet again and the guy came around to score and kept the inning alive longer in which four runs scored.

 

Therein lies the paradox with "defensive stats." They are all based on someone's guess of what other defensive players would do in the same situation. I'm not saying Yuni's a good defender... he's not ...but since I assume you watch most of the Brewers' games, I'd say your guess is probably as good as the person paid to make the guess, so really the defensive stats don't prove anything more than your eyes.

 

Back on topic, does anybody know the number of days McGehee would need to stay down in the minors for him to not get an arby hearing? It would be interesting to see how that plays out should the circumstance arrive.

 

I posed that question earlier as well, and it will be interesting if we send him down and it causes him to be pre-arby again next year. It could certainly be argued that he deserves to be sent down, but Melvin could get black-listed by the union if it looks to them like McGehee's being sent down just for monetary reasons (after the Hardy case).

[endaround]

No that isn't what defensive stats do at all. They track where a ball goes and then based on that compare how many of those balls in that area are converted into outs by the league and then look at the conversion rate for a given player.

[Never Outhustled]

What's funny is Hardy's .660-ish OPS with good defense got him sent to AAA. Betencourt's .600-ish OPS with the worst defense I've ever seen from a shortstop is getting him every day starts, and the same for McGehee.

We are obviously either not watching the same guy (Betancourt), or you haven't seen too many shortstops. I can name two in the same division who are worse defensively just this year than Betancourt, one of whom is an All Star (Starlin Castro). The other is Ryan Theriot.

 

Theriot has really lost range, he's as bad as Yuni now, but not worse. Castro can get to balls the other 2 can only dream of. Castro is a little rough around the edges, but he's a huge upgrade compared to the other 2. Theriot and Betancourt have range limitations rarely seen in MLB. They're epically bad.

[endaround]

Theriot of course is a bad defensive 2B playing SS

[davego]

More my point ( not to jack the tread) is that JJ played himself off this team. Wish he wouldn't have, but he was not a victim when DM sent him down.

[southpaw121505]

More my point ( not to jack the tread) is that JJ played himself off this team. Wish he wouldn't have, but he was not a victim when DM sent him down.

 

Then why stop holding people accountable for results? How does Betancourt have a job and how long does McGehee hold one? Hardy had a far better track record than those two and more hope to bounce back. Betancourt has never been good and McGehee has had one brief good run. Neither was ever as good as Hardy and Hardy was younger and better defensively.

[davego]

I agree with all that. But saying now we should have kept JJ is easy to say.

[logan82]

Betancourt and Hardy are really different circumstances. With JJ we had a stud up and coming SS. With Betancourt we have nobody. I am not sure how much longer McGehee will get but this isn't exactly the same circumstances as Hardy since the team is supposed to contend this year. They were really bad the year Hardy was sent down. At least in the second half they were. Going by what happened in 2009, McGehee won't go down until our team starts to suck and is out of the race.

[Pack Attack]

McGehee looked horrible offensively & defensively again last night. His swings looked just terrible. His defense is just atrocious. There were a couple of ground balls that went between him and Betancourt that he didn't even try to get. At least make an effort. Both McGehee and Betancourt have no range at all. These 2 definitely don't help our pitching staff out at all.

[Thurston Fluff]

Hardy had a far better track record than those two and more hope to bounce back. Betancourt has never been good and McGehee has had one brief good run. Neither was ever as good as Hardy and Hardy was younger and better defensively.

 

Casey had an OPS of 859 and 801 his previous two years. Hardy 786 and 821 prior to his meltdown. For their careers Hardy has a 756 OPS while Casey has a 757 OPS. How is than better than McGehee's?

[logan82]

Hardy had a far better track record than those two and more hope to bounce back. Betancourt has never been good and McGehee has had one brief good run. Neither was ever as good as Hardy and Hardy was younger and better defensively.

 

Casey had an OPS of 859 and 801 his previous two years. Hardy 786 and 821 prior to his meltdown. For their careers Hardy has a 756 OPS while Casey has a 757 OPS. How is than better than McGehee's?

Defense.

[TooLiveBrew]

And if you're talking track record, you have to include MiLB success & Hardy's top prospect status too

[Thurston Fluff]

Fair point. I thought you meant offensively since you posted the younger and better defense at the end. I think it fair to add durability to that list if you are using age as well though. Hardy is younger but he has not aged well and isn't as durable so far. Either way Hardy was not sent down because of his defense. He was sent down because of his offense and there was someone ready to take his place. Casey is as good offensively as Hardy was so he will get the same amount of time to work through it. Perhaps more if Green isn't as ready to take over as Escobar was.

[Thurston Fluff]

And if you're talking track record, you have to include MiLB success & Hardy's top prospect status too

 

I think two years of major league time is far more telling than minor league numbers from 3 or more years ago. Especially with Hardy whose minor league numbers are from over half a decade ago. Casey has to get it going there is no disputing that.

[chuckcrim]

Mcgehee's swings are like the oversized little leaguer who you hopes makes contact with his exhaustingly long swing. Problem is most times it's a foul ball, jam shot, or swing and a miss. It's OK for a 12 year old but not your everyday starting MLB 3B.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think two years of major league time is far more telling than minor league numbers from 3 or more years ago

 

I said include MiLB time, not weight it heavier than recent seasons.

[RockCoCougars]

I agree with all that. But saying now we should have kept JJ is easy to say.

I said it back then. Coming into 2009, you have a shortstop and you are talking about forcing him to third after he's played solid defense and averaged 25 homers the past two seasons? For a guy who was in AA? As 2009 went on, I'm thinking that he got into Macha's doghouse and out he went. Obviously, for whatever reason, the team decided that they weren't interested in keeping him around for the long term, so they played games with his service time. I'm guessing some things went on with Hardy that ticked off the team at some point in time before 2009. They were just lucky that McGehee busted out at third for two years, but now the move looks really stupid- with the four headed monster on the left side of the infield. It really wouldn't look much better with Escobar still here either.

[logan82]

Casey is as good offensively as Hardy was so he will get the same amount of time to work through it.

 

You would expect better production out of 3B than SS though. One position is a defense first position and the other, despite many 3B not being as good in recent years, is still more of an offense position.

[RickyWeeks4Prez]

Escobar is quickly becoming known as one of the best defensive shortstops in all of the major leagues. Our leftside would look much better with a 24 year old plus plus defensive shortstop. Especially since his offensive numbers are better than any of the 3 players we have had play SS this year.